Time and Causality 2

[Melifeather]

5 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Probably. Othor and Jafer Flowers were stored in the ice cells and ice didn't block the magic that awoke/controlled them.

 

To me, blocked from passing is different than blocking magic. It’s just that magical beings cannot pass through the Wall, but if carried passed the wards, magic can raise the dead south of the Wall too. That became even more apparent when we were introduced to Beric and Lady Stoneheart.

[Tucu]

6 minutes ago, LongRider said:

I had forgotten about that!  They were dead though and controlled by different magic than what BR and the CotF have, right?  RIGHT?   At any rate, Jon and the Karstark party were living men and did seem to be affected by magic.

 

So different...yet the same :-)

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"Because they're different," he insisted. "Like night and day, or ice and fire."

"If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."

 

[LynnS]

11 hours ago, LongRider said:

The hinges that screamed at the wall were the hinges in the door to the largest ice cell.  Been doing a little study of the ice cells and the Black Cells

Ice cells at the base of the Wall reminds me of the 79 sentinels and I now wonder if they were interred at the base of the Wall as well.  It seems that if you are interred in an ice cell that you become part of the Wall and I wonder if this is what Ygritte means when she tells Jon Snow that the Wall is made of blood instead of ice.  We have the theme of blood and fire for the Targs.  It's opposite would be blood and ice.

I'm reminded of the story that human sacrifice was made using the cornerstones of buildings to strengthen the walls:

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A Baring-Gould says: “The proverb says that there is a skeleton in every man’s house, and the proverb is a statement of what, at one time, was a fact. Every house had its skeleton, and what was more, every house was intended to have not only its skeleton, but its ghost.”

Jacob Grimm gives this explanation: “It was often thought necessary to immure live animals, and even men, in the foundations on which the structure was to be raised, as if they were a sacrifice offered to the earth who had to bear the load upon her. By this in-human rite they hoped to secure immovable stability or other advantages.”” https://archive.org/details/Ancient_Religious_Traditions_And_Symbols__-_H_Sykes/page/n7/mode/2up

Freemasons Exposed: The Freemason’s Cornerstone Ceremony Symbolizes Human Sacrifice | Truth and Conspiracy

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon I

Jon did not deny it. "The Wall is no place for a woman."

"You are wrong. I have dreamed of your Wall, Jon Snow. Great was the lore that raised it, and great the spells locked beneath its ice. We walk beneath one of the hinges of the world." Melisandre gazed up at it, her breath a warm moist cloud in the air. "This is my place as it is yours, and soon enough you may have grave need of me. Do not refuse my friendship, Jon. I have seen you in the storm, hard-pressed, with enemies on every side. You have so many enemies. Shall I tell you their names?"

Spells locked beneath the ice at it's base, weaving ice and stone together.  A hinge is used to hang a door and the Black Gate is a door with a ghost face that can only be seen with moonlight.  According to Mel, Jon can access the power of the Wall if he chooses.  He would have to open the door.  Bran may already be doing this as part of his lessons; accessing the moon door. He tastes the salty tear when he passes.

This reminds of the Damphair drinking saltwater, the blessing of the drowned god.  If I recall correctly Ravenous Reader's essay on Gseers under-the-sea makes a connection between the drowned god and the Gseers under-the-sea beyond the wall; that they are one in the same.  Patchface makes that connection.

So is someone else accessing the power of the Wall, opening the door with the rusty hinges?  This comes up in Aeron's POV in association with Euron.

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A Feast for Crows - The Prophet

That man is dead. Aeron had drowned and been reborn from the sea, the god's own prophet. No mortal man could frighten him, no more than the darkness could . . . nor memories, the bones of the soul. The sound of a door opening, the scream of a rusted iron hinge. Euron has come again. It did not matter. He was the Damphair priest, beloved of the god.

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A Feast for Crows - The Prophet

The sound came softly, the scream of a rusted hinge. "Urri," he muttered, and woke, fearful. There is no hinge here, no door, no Urri. A flying axe took off half of Urri's hand when he was ten-and-four, playing at the finger dance whilst his father and his elder brothers were away at war. Lord Quellon's third wife had been a Piper of Pinkmaiden Castle, a girl with big soft breasts and brown doe's eyes. Instead of healing Urri's hand the Old Way, with fire and seawater, she gave him to her green land maester, who swore that he could sew back the missing fingers. He did that, and later he used potions and poltices and herbs, but the hand mortified and Urri took a fever. By the time the maester sawed his arm off, it was too late.

Jon's ice cell:

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon X

Jon had given his chief captive the largest cell, a pail to shit in, enough furs to keep him from freezing, and a skin of wine. It took the guards some time to open his cell, as ice had formed inside the lock. Rusted hinges screamed like damned souls when Wick Whittlestick yanked the door wide enough for Jon to slip through. A faint fecal odor greeted him, though less overpowering than he'd expected. Even shit froze solid in such bitter cold. Jon Snow could see his own reflection dimly inside the icy walls.

 

 

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Eliscat said:

Have you an opinion on the idea that all of Westeros is a Garden? That the peoples are not men as we think? That most of the families grew to appear as men. Each related to or grown from an animal, insect, grass, or plant? It ties into the Adam and Cain stuff. A Garden of Martin?  Hemocyanin= green blood from copper and hatred of iron.( even tho it’s purple. Maybe ,green blood is chlorophyll plant people) 

amygdalin and rosacea family?

Or I’m looking to close?

Well, this brings to mind Garth the Gardener and the origins of greenblood.  The Starks and Garth are referred to as to the oak and what we have with Gseers is the grafting of the oak to the weirwood.  A blood infusion to the weirwood and vice versa.  We also have soldier pines and sentinel trees, the green men and a warehousing of souls within the trees of the forest.  On the fiery side, we have the old chestnut tree standing in for Bloodraven.  The ash tree standing in for Tyrion  and the elm tree for Dunk and Brienne.

I do think trees represent bloodlines.  

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

To me, blocked from passing is different than blocking magic. It’s just that magical beings cannot pass through the Wall, but if carried passed the wards, magic can raise the dead south of the Wall too. That became even more apparent when we were introduced to Beric and Lady Stoneheart.

We can't be sure exactly what types of magic The Wall blocks, but it seems to block the wolf pack sense (Jon can't sense Ghost across The Wall and Ghost can't sense Summer). Coldhands says (or lies) that dead things can't pass through the Black Gate (or enter BR's cave). Then on Storm's End Mel says that spells blocks the shadows from passing.

With regards to Othor and Jafer we can't be sure if they were activated from across The Wall or they were already active when carried or if something make them active from the south.

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Tucu said:

We can't be sure exactly what types of magic The Wall blocks, but it seems to block the wolf pack sense (Jon can't sense Ghost across The Wall and Ghost can't sense Summer). Coldhands says (or lies) that dead things can't pass through the Black Gate (or enter BR's cave). Then on Storm's End Mel says that spells blocks the shadows from passing

Is it safe to say that it blocks warging but it doesn't block direwolves from sensing each other?

It doesn't block Othor and Jafr in their dormant stage during the day and their bodies can pass if taken through the ward.

It doesn't stop Othor and Jafr from being reactivated again once they are past the Wall.   How is this achieved?  Does it have something to do with moonlight? Othor is described as moon-faced.  Is someone using a moon door to control them?

 

[Melifeather]

43 minutes ago, Tucu said:

We can't be sure exactly what types of magic The Wall blocks, but it seems to block the wolf pack sense (Jon can't sense Ghost across The Wall and Ghost can't sense Summer). Coldhands says (or lies) that dead things can't pass through the Black Gate (or enter BR's cave). Then on Storm's End Mel says that spells blocks the shadows from passing.

With regards to Othor and Jafer we can't be sure if they were activated from across The Wall or they were already active when carried or if something make them active from the south.

Magic has already spread throughout the world on both sides of the Wall, but the Wall is warded and physical bodies raised by magic cannot pass of their own accord. They can be dragged/carried through, but since magic exists on the south side as well as the north, they can reanimate after dark. If someone carried Coldhands through, he could exist south of the Wall. Warging/skinchanging is a type of magic, so a skinchanger cannot complete a connection going through the Wall. Jon/Ghost knew Bran/Summer was on the north side of the Wall, because when he was out ranging he sensed them. But he cannot sense him through the Wall when he is sleeping on the south side. 

[Melifeather]

I have a question for everyone. Is the layering of past, present, and future parallels in the titled chapters too confusing or do you have doubts they even exist?

[Yaya]

@Melifeather & all the great contributors to this thread - i find the time layering extremely confusing & i have doubts about some of the associations put forward ... but that isn't stopping me from reading about all ya'all's thoughts & ideas because i don't know everything    

i have a contribution to the thread finally though!:

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

We have the theme of blood and fire for the Targs.  It's opposite would be blood and ice.

to me the opposite of blood & fire would be more like bones & ice - would that make sense with the theories you all are putting forward? 

this would also tie in with the implied importance (at least for the north cultures) of having the 'bones brought home' - like Ned's bones, the bones found in weirwood boles, Lady's bones, etc.  (edited to add:  the theory of bones of dragons in Valaryian steel too?)

thanks everyone for putting the ideas & theories forward for all us to consider - even if we aren't actively contributing to the thread(s). 

[LynnS]

24 minutes ago, Yaya said:

@Melifeather & all the great contributors to this thread - i find the time layering extremely confusing & i have doubts about some of the associations put forward ... but that isn't stopping me from reading about all ya'all's thoughts & ideas because i don't know everything    

i have a contribution to the thread finally though!:

to me the opposite of blood & fire would be more like bones & ice - would that make sense with the theories you all are putting forward? 

this would also tie in with the implied importance (at least for the north cultures) of having the 'bones brought home' - like Ned's bones, the bones found in weirwood boles, Lady's bones, etc.  (edited to add:  the theory of bones of dragons in Valaryian steel too?)

thanks everyone for putting the ideas & theories forward for all us to consider - even if we aren't actively contributing to the thread(s). 

Hello Yaya!  You are always welcome to join in.  I like this!  Bones contain the memories of the soul according to Aeron Greyjoy. 

[LongRider]

18 hours ago, LynnS said:

Hello Yaya!  You are always welcome to join in.  I like this!  Bones contain the memories of the soul according to Aeron Greyjoy. 

Beyond the Wall many bones can be found in the cave of the CotF. 
 

 

23 hours ago, LynnS said:

 A hinge is used to hang a door 

Yes, hinge also connects the moving door to the stationary wall (Wall).  The Wall doesn’t move, but people and their animals and goods move through known doors.  
But like the Black Gate there are other ways of gaining entrance. Going around or over for example.  >>>(no)Doesn’t Ghost get across the Wall a few times without an explanation for Jon and the reader?  (no<<<<)  

While I see the 79 Sentinels as a discrete group, the Wall is very old so mayhaps other blood sacrifices, specifically made, have been done over time. 
I realized from the recent posts that the score is Euron/Vic 3 screaming hinges to Jon Snow’s one. 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Yaya said:

@Melifeather & all the great contributors to this thread - i find the time layering extremely confusing & i have doubts about some of the associations put forward ... but that isn't stopping me from reading about all ya'all's thoughts & ideas because i don't know everything    

i have a contribution to the thread finally though!:

to me the opposite of blood & fire would be more like bones & ice - would that make sense with the theories you all are putting forward? 

this would also tie in with the implied importance (at least for the north cultures) of having the 'bones brought home' - like Ned's bones, the bones found in weirwood boles, Lady's bones, etc.  (edited to add:  the theory of bones of dragons in Valaryian steel too?)

thanks everyone for putting the ideas & theories forward for all us to consider - even if we aren't actively contributing to the thread(s). 

While I believe blood sacrifice is important to both fire and ice, bones are important to both too. There are many examples of feeding blood to the trees and snows as well as flames. The bones remember whether raised by ice magic or used in glamours.

[LynnS]

7 minutes ago, LongRider said:

I realized from the recent posts that the score is Euron/Vic 3 screaming hinges to Jon Snow’s one.

I think it's Euron/Vic3 plus Jon = 4.  More if you include Aeron.

[Mourning Star]

1 hour ago, Yaya said:

to me the opposite of blood & fire would be more like bones & ice - would that make sense with the theories you all are putting forward? 

I would agree, and add that breaking the bones of a wight appears to be one way to stop them.

[Melifeather]

4 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Beyond the Wall many bones can be found in the cave of the CotF. 
 

 

Yes, hinge also connects the moving door to the stationary wall (Wall).  The Wall doesn’t move, but people and their animals and goods move through known doors.  
But like the Black Gate there are other ways of gaining entrance. Going around or over for example.  Doesn’t Ghost get across the Wall a few times without an explanation for Jon and the reader?

While I see the 79 Sentinels as a discrete group, the Wall is very old so mayhaps other blood sacrifices, specifically made, have been done over time. 
I realized from the recent posts that the score is Euron/Vic 3 screaming hinges to Jon Snow’s one. 

The reason why the Wall is said to be a hinge is because the door is invisible. The door is composed of woven wards and spells which theoretically could be opened or shut or become worn.

I don’t recall any instances when Ghost passed through the Wall without explanation. If you know of any instances I’d be interested in reading the text.

 

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Yaya said:

i find the time layering extremely confusing & i have doubts about some of the associations put forward ... but that isn't stopping me from reading about all ya'all's thoughts & ideas because i don't know everything    

I've been studying the titled chapters for five years. I've been a member here on Westeros since 2011, but I used to also belong to a few others, namely Sable Hall and then Last Hearth. Nowadays most of my writing is posted on the House of Black and White. Any-who, we were about to do a group reread of the titled chapters when a poster named regular jon umber wondered if the titled chapters "meant anything". That simple question nagged at me and the rest of the group were intrigued as well so we approached the reread with a careful eye.

During the reread there was a falling out between a number of members and five of us left to form the House of Black and White. I was still interested in finding out if the titled chapters were intended to convey a special meaning to readers so I began to study them on my own - poring over them, over and over until one day while working on the fifth titled chapter, The Iron Captain AFFC chapter 18 I began to notice a number of parallels between Damphair and Maester Aemon. Specifically how their family members seemed to line up - the Greyjoys and the Targaryens/Blackfyres.

After a second reading of The Iron Captain, the proverbial lightbulb turned on. The Iron Captain. The Iron Throne. Ironborn. Ironmen. Paying the iron price. Could it really be a metaphor? Just look at the easy ones. The families both live on rocky islands separated from the mainland. Dragonstone lays east of Kings Landing in Blackwater Bay and the Pyke is one of the Iron Islands on the west side of Westeros in the Sunset Sea. Both homelands are too stony to grow food or provide resources to live off of, so the families resorted to taking what they needed. The Ironborn became reavers and the Targaryens conquerors. They are both associated with the wind. The Ironborn need the wind for their sails and the Targaryen's dragons fly in the air and attack from above.

The Targaryens kept the iron swords taken from their enemies and hammered them into a giant Iron Throne making it the object of authority. The Ironborn claim they were reborn from the iron, which I think means they viewed their separation from the mainland as a type of ward. Maybe the hammer of waters was directed partially at them? Were the islands attached to the mainland at one time? Breaking the connection could be seen as a type of warding. Iron is a known substance used in warding against magic, thus "ironborn" would be someone that broke free of their iron bonds/wards. If you figured out a way to come back and thrive - maybe even take revenge - then you could say you were "re-born". 

This is the origin of the theory that the titled chapters contain more than one story. There's the one on the surface, but there are multiple older parallels sometimes hidden within allegories, symbolism, and metaphors, and there might even be future parallels. The future ones would be very difficult to prove unless they're pretty much spelled out by the end of ADWD or in one of the released Winds chapters. GRRM's editor, Anne Groell has stated that George uses a three-fold revelation strategy:

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"...The first, subtle hint for the really astute readers, followed later by the more blatant hint for the less attentive, followed by just spelling it out for everyone else. It’s a brilliant strategy, and highly effective."

Ned's beheading and the Red Wedding were each hinted at in this three-fold method, and I believe that the titled chapters can be mined to reveal where the story is going. I keep thinking about the purpose of greenseers. Of what benefit is it for them to know what has happened in the past if you cannot change the past? Through my study of the titled chapters I've come to believe that history repeats itself. It's not my idea. It's a concept that the book has told us a few times. Asha asks her uncle to lend her his history book so she can read about the last kingsmoot, and Rodrik frowns and says 

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“Archmaester Rigney once wrote that history is a wheel, for the nature of man is fundamentally unchanging. What has happened before will perforce happen again.” Rodrik says he thinks about what Rigney said whenever he thinks about Euron and how much he’s like Urron Greyiron, the man that butchered his way to the top at the last kingsmoot.

Arianne brings up House Toland of Ghost Hill whose sigil is a dragon eating it's own tail. 

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“The dragon is time. It has no beginning and no ending, so all things come round again. Anders Yronwood is Criston Cole reborn."

So if history is repeating itself, then whatever happened in the past will happen again. If we can identify that a character is doing the same thing that another character did in the past, then we might possibly correctly guess what's about to happen. But GRRM didn't want to make this too easy for us so he inverted some aspects of each parallel. For example...the order of migration from Essos to Westeros has the First Men arriving first, then the Andals with the Faith of Seven, then Nymeria brought the Rhoynar to Dorne, and lastly the Targaryens conquered all but Dorne. Just look at our current story. The Targaryens were defeated by Andals, Arianne (Dorne) is on her way to negotiate a marriage contract with Young Griff who arrived to Westeros from the Rhoyne. The Faith is taking control over the Andal throne, and Sansa and Littlefinger are poised to re-establish a Queen in the North. Meanwhile at the Wall Lord Commander Jon Snow was mutinied against by the men of the Watch just like when the Watch and the Lord of Winterfell took down the Nights King, and all of Westeros is about to experience a second long night. History is rolling in reverse!

Quaithe gave Daenerys directions on how to navigate a world where history is rolling in reverse, she said:

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“To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.”

In other words. If she wants to navigate this alternate reality she has to do the opposite of whatever her natural inclination is! 

Another important detail to keep in mind when rereading the titled chapters are the instructions that Sam gave us:

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A Feast for Crows - Samwell II

But not looking at the water was even worse, Sam realized in the cramped cabin beneath the sterncastle that the passengers were sharing. He tried to take his mind off the roiling in his stomach by talking with Gilly as she nursed her son. "This ship will take us as far as Braavos," he said. "We'll find another ship to carry us to Oldtown. I read a book about Braavos when I was small. The whole city is built in a lagoon on a hundred little islands, and they have a titan there, a stone man hundreds of feet high. They have boats instead of horses, and their mummers play out written stories instead of just making up the usual stupid farces. The food is very good too, especially the fish. They have all kinds of clams and eels and oysters, fresh from their lagoon. We ought to have a few days between ships. If we do, we can go and see a mummer show, and have some oysters."

 

The plays in Essos are real and the people of Westeros are mummers acting out stories. Ramsay's wedding to fArya is likened to a play:

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A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell

Then the mists parted, like the curtain opening at a mummer show to reveal some new tableau. The heart tree appeared in front of them, its bony limbs spread wide. Fallen leaves lay about the wide white trunk in drifts of red and brown. The ravens were the thickest here, muttering to one another in the murderers' secret tongue. Ramsay Bolton stood beneath them, clad in high boots of soft grey leather and a black velvet doublet slashed with pink silk and glittering with garnet teardrops. A smile danced across his face. "Who comes?" His lips were moist, his neck red above his collar. "Who comes before the god?”

 

Ramsay's marriage to fArya is likened to a play, but not just any play, one that reveals some new tableau. What is the definition of "tableau"? A tableau is a group of models or motionless figures representing a scene from a story or from history; a tableau vivant. The more scientific definition of tableau is a visual analytics platform transforming the way we use data to solve problems—empowering people and organizations to make the most of their data. It is up to the reader to analyze the data.

I realize my post is getting long, but if you've read to this point then I will give you one example of a play from the Cat of the Canals chapter that is actually a retelling of a historical event. The two playhouses that were doing these plays were The Ship and the Blue Lantern. Even the names of the playhouses have meaning, but I'm going to set them aside for now and focus just on the plays themselves.

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I know the mummers at the Blue Lantern are going to do The Lord of the Woeful Countenance, and the mummers at the Ship are doing Seven Drunken Oarsmen.

If we view tourneys as "playing at war" then the tourney at Harrenhal was a dress rehearsal for the Rebellion. The various battles would be "acts" in the same play. Arya/Cat noted that the play "Seven Drunken Oarsmen" was in answer to "The Lord of Woeful Countenance. Why did Arya/Cat tie these plays together? The answer can be found when we break apart the titles.

I believe the "Seven Drunken Oarsmen" is a metaphor. Oarsmen power and move a ship through the water and certainly the Rebellion moved around the Riverlands before heading south to Kings Landing. The thing with allegories is that they encompass more than a single metaphor or thought, but they are very effective at helping the reader understand. Just take a look at the definition of allegory:

Allegory: The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form. A story, picture, or play employing such representation.

I think we should expect to see multitudes of ideas and events represented, so the seven oarsmen can be seven houses or seven individuals or both, or even a nod to the Faith. Just as "oarsmen" can be men that are financially driven, desire power, or actual geographical movement. "Drunken" can be actions not normally taken, not thinking clearly, uninhibited, and still include the actual battles in the Riverlands and in the Trident itself.

After the tourney, Lyanna goes missing. To me it seems obvious that the "Lord of the Woeful Countenance" was Rickard Stark. The location of this play (act) as being at the Blue Lantern seems to hint at the blue roses associated with Winterfell. Rickard certainly was "woeful" at his daughter's disappearance. Ned is also described as having a "long face". "Long" is often used to describe someone sad as in, "why the long face?".

I hope this explains how I approach the titled chapters and how the layered parallels can be identified and understood. Does any of this make sense to you?

 

 

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

Well, this brings to mind Garth the Gardener and the origins of greenblood.  The Starks and Garth are referred to as to the oak and what we have with Gseers is the grafting of the oak to the weirwood.  A blood infusion to the weirwood and vice versa.  We also have soldier pines and sentinel trees, the green men and a warehousing of souls within the trees of the forest.  On the fiery side, we have the old chestnut tree standing in for Bloodraven.  The ash tree standing in for Tyrion  and the elm tree for Dunk and Brienne.

I do think trees represent bloodlines.  

Thank you Thank you. I couldn’t figure out the meaning of Tyrion’s bloody hand grasping an oak root instead of Jon. I keep thinking that’s the one a face gets carved into but it’s not the same location. Or is it?

Any thoughts on Sable? Been bugging me from the first reading. Waymar and his sable cloak and moleskin gloves.

[LynnS]

9 minutes ago, Eliscat said:

Thank you Thank you. I couldn’t figure out the meaning of Tyrion’s bloody hand grasping an oak root instead of Jon. I keep thinking that’s the one a face gets carved into but it’s not the same location. Or is it?

Jon sees these trees on the way to Molestown.in  DwD.  The last is an oak tree.

10 minutes ago, Eliscat said:

Any thoughts on Sable? Been bugging me from the first reading. Waymar and his sable cloak and moleskin gloves.

I think @Seams can explain this better than I.

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

12 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Jon sees these trees on the way to Molestown.in  DwD.  The last is an oak tree.

I think @Seams can explain this better than I.

Thank you. Seams is very clever. his post lead me here. So the circle completes. Maybe this handsome man, of wisdom and sophisticated charm,and hopefully susceptible to flattery, may reply to this post

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I hope this explains how I approach the titled chapters and how the layered parallels can be identified and understood. Does any of this make sense to you?

I think it does, but I have trouble following your posts but part of that you add so much history that I'm not familiar with and I tend to get lost with lots of characters anyway.  So I would say carry on.