Time and Causality 2

[Melifeather]

25 minutes ago, LongRider said:

I think it does, but I have trouble following your posts but part of that you add so much history that I'm not familiar with and I tend to get lost with lots of characters anyway.  So I would say carry on.

I appreciate your feedback. I know I tend to be long winded, but I feel like i need to lay a large foundation when I’m explaining myself. As a result readers often get lost in the details and don’t bother finishing the post. I need to severely edit what I say and formulate a “Readers Digest” edition. 

[LongRider]

JAFER FLOWERS AND OTHOR ~vs~ TWO DEAD WILDINGS

So I thought a little compare and contrast of these two groups might prove interesting and maybe useful. 

Flowers and Othor

The Flowers/Othor find takes place after Ghost shows up with a dead human hand on Jon Snow's first ranging.*   Both showed signs of being dead for some time; dried blood, and their wounds were not fresh.  Both had open eyes with Flowers showing 'blue, blue eyes' and Othor showing sapphire eyes.  Some of the Rangers mentioned they didn't remember either having blue eyes.

They were found in the morning and it was noted as quite warm; "The old men called this weather spirit summer, and said it meant the season was giving up its ghosts at last."  The corpses were taken to Castle Black and Mormont ordered them to be "put the dead men in a storeroom until the maester is ready for them."   Hmmm, it's noted in the text that the storerooms are similar to the ice cells:  "The dead men were carried to one of the storerooms along the base of the Wall, a dark cold cell chiseled from the ice and used to keep meat and grain and sometimes even beer."  Could the storerooms not be as secure as the actual ice cells for detaining men, not storing goods?

An interesting sentence later in the chapter: "A north wind had begun to blow by the time the sun went down. Jon could hear it skirling against the Wall and over the icy battlements as he went to the common hall for the evening meal. "

The Wildings.

Jon Snow and Ghost guide a party of men to say their Night Watch vows past the Wall at the Weir Wood Grove.**  When the Rangers arrive at the grove, they find nine wildings; seven living and two dead.  That's the description of them, just as 'dead.'  "Nine, Tom Barleycorn had said, and nine there were, but two were dead and one so weak he might have died by morning."   Jon brings back the living and dead wildings, and puts the dead ones in an ice cell.

Several months later when Jon moves the Karstarks out of the ice cells he notes concerning the coprses:  ""Leave them." If the storm entombed them, well and good. He would need to burn them eventually, no doubt, but for the nonce they were bound with iron chains inside their cells. That, and being dead, should suffice to hold them harmless."***

So, about the iron chains, isn't there folklore about some protective properties of iron against the supernatural and fae folk and the like?  Could having the wildings wrapped in iron chains have some meaning?  Also, the dead wildings did not show signs of yet turning into wights or it would have been mentioned in the text.   So, the two ranger wights and the dead wildings were not the same, yet.  We don't know though, if the wildings have changed while frozen in the ice cells.  

*AGOT Jon VII, chptr 52.

** ADWD  Jon VII, chptr 35

***ADWD Jon XIII chptr 69

[LongRider]

One last post going back to Storm and the finding of Flowers and Othor. *  We may have an early encounter of Bran and/or BR (one or both?) going back in time.  Here is the scene:

Quote

Dywen sucked at his wooden teeth. "Might be they didn't die here. Might be someone brought 'em and left 'em for us. A warning, as like." The old forester peered down suspiciously. "And might be I'm a fool, but I don't know that Othor never had no blue eyes afore."
Ser Jaremy looked startled. "Neither did Flowers," he blurted, turning to stare at the dead man.

A silence fell over the wood. For a moment all they heard was Sam's heavy breathing and the wet sound of Dywen sucking on his teeth. Jon squatted beside Ghost.

"Burn them," someone whispered. One of the rangers; Jon could not have said who. "Yes, burn them," a second voice urged.
The Old Bear gave a stubborn shake of his head. "Not yet. I want Maester Aemon to have a look at them. We'll bring them back to the Wall."

These unidentified voices were brought to my attention in the archived Jon Snow reread.  It's easy to miss so I was glad to have it pointed out.  Jon could not identify who said 'Burn them" even though he knew everyman there, and the second voice isn't identified either.   I don't remember who pointed this out, but a great catch!

 

*AGOT  Jon VII chtr 52

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, LongRider said:

JAFER FLOWERS AND OTHOR ~vs~ TWO DEAD WILDINGS

So I thought a little compare and contrast of these two groups might prove interesting and maybe useful. 

Flowers and Othor

The Flowers/Othor find takes place after Ghost shows up with a dead human hand on Jon Snow's first ranging.*   Both showed signs of being dead for some time; dried blood, and their wounds were not fresh.  Both had open eyes with Flowers showing 'blue, blue eyes' and Othor showing sapphire eyes.  Some of the Rangers mentioned they didn't remember either having blue eyes.

They were found in the morning and it was noted as quite warm; "The old men called this weather spirit summer, and said it meant the season was giving up its ghosts at last."  The corpses were taken to Castle Black and Mormont ordered them to be "put the dead men in a storeroom until the maester is ready for them."   Hmmm, it's noted in the text that the storerooms are similar to the ice cells:  "The dead men were carried to one of the storerooms along the base of the Wall, a dark cold cell chiseled from the ice and used to keep meat and grain and sometimes even beer."  Could the storerooms not be as secure as the actual ice cells for detaining men, not storing goods?

An interesting sentence later in the chapter: "A north wind had begun to blow by the time the sun went down. Jon could hear it skirling against the Wall and over the icy battlements as he went to the common hall for the evening meal. "

The Wildings.

Jon Snow and Ghost guide a party of men to say their Night Watch vows past the Wall at the Weir Wood Grove.**  When the Rangers arrive at the grove, they find nine wildings; seven living and two dead.  That's the description of them, just as 'dead.'  "Nine, Tom Barleycorn had said, and nine there were, but two were dead and one so weak he might have died by morning."   Jon brings back the living and dead wildings, and puts the dead ones in an ice cell.

Several months later when Jon moves the Karstarks out of the ice cells he notes concerning the coprses:  ""Leave them." If the storm entombed them, well and good. He would need to burn them eventually, no doubt, but for the nonce they were bound with iron chains inside their cells. That, and being dead, should suffice to hold them harmless."***

So, about the iron chains, isn't there folklore about some protective properties of iron against the supernatural and fae folk and the like?  Could having the wildings wrapped in iron chains have some meaning.  Also, the dead wildings did not show signs of yet turning into wights or it would have been mentioned in the text.   So, the two ranger wights and the dead wildings were not the same, yet.  We don't know though, if the wildings have changed while frozen in the ice cells.  

*AGOT Jon VII, chptr 52.

** ADWD  Jon VII, chptr 35

***ADWD Jon XIII chptr 69

We have 3 accounts on the moments surrounding a wight's transformation: Waymar, Thistle and Torwynd. Apparently an extreme cold event is needed but the transformation takes minutes or hours:

First Waymar:

Quote

“Will, where are you?” Ser Waymar called up. “Can you see anything?” He was turning in a slow circle, suddenly wary, his sword in hand. He must have felt them, as Will felt them. There was nothing to see. “Answer me! Why is it so cold?”

It was cold. Shivering, Will clung more tightly to his perch. <...>

He stayed in the tree, scarce daring to breathe, while the moon crept slowly across the black sky. Finally, his muscles cramping and his fingers numb with cold, he climbed down.<...>

Will rose. Ser Waymar Royce stood over him.

His fine clothes were a tatter, his face a ruin. A shard from his sword transfixed the blind white pupil of his left eye.

The right eye was open. The pupil burned blue. It saw.

Torwynd:

Quote

Every nightfall we’d ring our camps with fire. They don’t like fire much, and no mistake. When the snows came, though … snow and sleet and freezing rain, it’s bloody hard to find dry wood or get your kindling lit, and the cold … some nights our fires just seemed to shrivel up and die. Nights like that, you always find some dead come the morning. ’Less they find you first. The night that Torwynd … my boy, he …” Tormund turned his face away.

“I know,” said Jon Snow.

Tormund turned back. “You know nothing. You killed a dead man, aye, I heard. Mance killed a hundred. A man can fight the dead, but when their masters come, when the white mists rise up … how do you fight a mist, crow? Shadows with teeth … air so cold it hurts to breathe, like a knife inside your chest … you do not know, you cannot know … can your sword cut cold?”

And finally Thistle:

Quote

The white world turned and fell away. For a moment it was as if he were inside the weirwood, gazing out through carved red eyes as a dying man twitched feebly on the ground and a madwoman danced blind and bloody underneath the moon, weeping red tears and ripping at her clothes. Then both were gone and he was rising, melting, his spirit borne on some cold wind. He was in the snow and in the clouds, he was a sparrow, a squirrel, an oak.<...>

True death came suddenly; he felt a shock of cold, as if he had been plunged into the icy waters of a frozen lake. Then he found himself rushing over moonlit snows with his packmates close behind him. <...>

When they reached the crest the wolves paused. Thistle, he remembered, and a part of him grieved for what he had lost and another part for what he’d done. Below, the world had turned to ice. Fingers of frost crept slowly up the weirwood, reaching out for each other.<...>

The last to look was the thing that had been Thistle. She wore wool and fur and leather, and over that she wore a coat of hoarfrost that crackled when she moved and glistened in the moonlight. Pale pink icicles hung from her fingertips, ten long knives of frozen blood. And in the pits where her eyes had been, a pale blue light was flickering, lending her coarse features an eerie beauty they had never known in life.

She sees me.

Note that there is no mention of Varamyr's body rising as a wight. Also, the text might be interpreted in a way that Varamyr's soul emerging from the weirwood is what caused the cold wind that killed him and transformed Thistle into a wight.

Then we can jump of what may become an extreme cold event when Jon is stabbed:

Quote

When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold…

 

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

10 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Iron is a known substance used in warding against magic, thus "ironborn" would be someone that broke free of their iron bonds/wards. If you figured out a way to come back and thrive - maybe even take revenge - then you could say you were "re-born". 

Great post. Iron born could be a pronunciation change over time. Like Har- Lo  =Harlow .Euron ,Urron, Iron. An ancient name a people descended from.

I think it is borne of red blood cells maybe? Iron price blood price. 
 

Dunking of witches. Trial by ordeal. 

Ordeal by water was associated with the witch hunts of the 16th and 17th centuries: an accused who sank was considered innocent, while floating indicated witchcraft^[
 

 

[TheSamsa]

I don't know if this was mentioned in the first topic, but I stumbled upen a Timeline quote in GoT Bran IV:

Quote

The old woman smiled at him toothlessly. "My stories? No, my little lord, not mine. The stories are, before me and after me, before you too."

Why would Old Nan, specifically mention that the stories are before Bran too? If they are before her, it should include Bran too. If they time flows like it does normally.

 

Thought this would another hint, wouldn't it?

[LongRider]

17 hours ago, LongRider said:

Doesn’t Ghost get across the Wall a few times without an explanation for Jon and the reader?

I researched this and no, he doesn't.  I misremembered his coming back from being left behind when Jon climbed the Wall.   Ghost and Jon were reunited north of the Wall.  Thanks Melifeather, for asking.    

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, TheSamsa said:

I don't know if this was mentioned in the first topic, but I stumbled upen a Timeline quote in GoT Bran IV:

Why would Old Nan, specifically mention that the stories are before Bran too? If they are before her, it should include Bran too. If they time flows like it does normally.

 

Thought this would another hint, wouldn't it?

I have wondered if Bran is every Brandon Stark, reborn every time the previous one dies.

[TheSamsa]

7 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I have wondered if Bran is every Brandon Stark, reborn every time the previous one dies.

Probably. Because in the very same chapter, Bran remembers that his mother told him once that Old Nan mixes up all the Brandons she cared for.

[Frey family reunion]

12 hours ago, LongRider said:

These unidentified voices were brought to my attention in the archived Jon Snow reread.  It's easy to miss so I was glad to have it pointed out.  Jon could not identify who said 'Burn them" even though he knew everyman there, and the second voice isn't identified either.   I don't remember who pointed this out, but a great catch!

Heh, that is a pretty good catch.  Normally I would disregard something like this, but the fact that the initial response was "whispered" is what makes me suspicious.  When Bran speaks through the Weirwoods it apparently comes out as a whisper.  You would think that a Ranger especially a superstituous Ranger would shout that reaction out, not whisper it.

[LynnS]

13 hours ago, LongRider said:

One last post going back to Storm and the finding of Flowers and Othor. *  We may have an early encounter of Bran and/or BR (one or both?) going back in time.  Here is the scene:

These unidentified voices were brought to my attention in the archived Jon Snow reread.  It's easy to miss so I was glad to have it pointed out.  Jon could not identify who said 'Burn them" even though he knew everyman there, and the second voice isn't identified either.   I don't remember who pointed this out, but a great catch!

 

*AGOT  Jon VII chtr 52

It is mysterious.  Mormont heard the voices as well.

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, TheSamsa said:

Thought this would another hint, wouldn't it?

I think so too and I agree with Melifeather that Old Nan is hinting that Bran is also the Bran of the tales she tells. 

[Melifeather]

I'm still reading comments up thread and around page 5 you were discussing the two moons. I'd like to insert my two cents...George is a well-known fan of Marvel and DC Comics and many times the hero gets his powers or his weapons from meteors. I guess meteors aren't the same thing as moon shards, but maybe they are?  What I'm getting at is that magic was likely introduced to planetos by a meteor, and the Children were probably responsible for causing it to fall. Something to think about.

Pretty Pig/Some Pig has written extensively about parallels that she has noticed with various Marvel characters. If you haven't read her stuff you're in for a treat. I'll provide the link here.

I've taken a cue from her work and looked for additional comics book parallels while studying the Cat of the Canals chapter and found some matches to DC Comics for JonCon, Young Griff, and the rest of the Rhoynar gang. Recall all the cat references in that chapter and the cats that liked the smell of Cat? Cats are known for their strong flexible bodies, quick reflexes, sharp teeth, and retractable claws adapted to killing small prey. They can hear sounds too faint or high in frequency for humans. They can see in near total darkness, and have a keen sense of smell. People sometimes think cats have nine lives. In other words, cats have superpowers!

One of the superheroes, named Catman, seems to have inspired either JonCon or Rolly Duckworth. Catman was a burglar who stole cat-themed items such as cat statues, cat’s eye gems or emeralds, etc, and his choice of weapons were a pair of steel claw-tipped gloves and a razor edged caterang, which was a type of cat-boomerang. His costume was made of special orange African cloth, and endowed him with nine lives. In one story, Catman’s costume was made from retconned material that had belonged to a South Sea cat cult. In a few stories Catman starts out as a has-been over-weight loser who was over looked by other villians, and was easily defeated by the Green Arrow. When Catman was trying to resalvage his life he began living with a pride of lions. He later becomes a member of the Secret Six. Catman dyed his hair black to make himself look tougher. The dyed black hair might be a nod towards Rolly’s blacksmith father, while dye-ing hair is connected to Jon Con and Young Griff. One story about Catman involved a near death experience of being eaten alive by Monsieur Mallah (an ape that had a high IQ and was also known as the Brain) and Warp (a Frenchman). I only bring this up, because Warp kidnapped Icemaiden.

Catman belonged to a group of superheroes led by the Mockingbird called the Secret Six. Wouldn't it be perfect if Littlefinger was actually in cahoots with JonCon? The other members were: Deadshot, Cheshire, Rag Doll, a Parademon, and Scandal Savage. I swear to god if you read their bios they seem to match up to the Rhoynar gang! 

Circling back to my original topic of a magic meteor, I'll provide a few comics examples. Off the top of my head there's the Green Lantern who was often seen in conjunction with the Secret Six. After a railway crash, a railroad engineer named Alan Scott came into possession of a magic lantern (glass candle?) that spoke to him and said it would bring power. Thousands of years ago a mystical “green flame” meteor fell to Earth in ancient China. The voice of the flame prophesied that it would act three times: 1) once to bring death (a lamp-maker named Luke crafted the green metal of the meteor into a lamp), 2) once to bring life (the lamp came into possession of a mental institution patient which restored him to sanity), and 3) once to bring power (which is when Alan Scott received it.) Surely one of Quaithe’s prophecies for Dany is inspired by the magic Green Lantern! Sounds a bit familiar doesn't it? ACOF Daenerys IV - "...The whispers became a swirling song. . . . three fires must you light . . . one for life and one for death and one to love . . ."

Alan Scott crafted a magic ring from part of the lantern, which gave him a variety of powers. The limitation of the ring was that it had to be charged every 24 hours by touching it to the lantern, and it could not directly affect any object made of wood. A later reinvented Green Lantern had a more science fiction hero named Hal Jordan who’s powers were roughly the same as Alan Scott except he received his ring from a dying alien. 

The Dayne's sword Dawn is supposedly made from a meteor - a pale white one apparently. Its possible the ancient Stark sword Ice may have also been made from a meteor, but for some reason its gone missing and Westeros's largest Valyrian greatsword took its place. With the many comparisons to Excalabur and King Arthur, surely there is a magic sword hiding somewhere? Dawn is supposedly being reserved until someone worthy enough to carry arises as the Sword of the Morning.

 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

On 12/28/2020 at 10:23 AM, Eliscat said:

On my second reading I started to get an intuitive feeling that characters were obfuscating their actions and even their own thoughts from the “Gods” at first, and later me the Reader. As if, we the Readers,  by observing are apart of the story and by some extent an influence. I was shocked at the revelation, and quickly dismissed it as overly obsessing for Martins third quill.

Quill 1- what is told, 2 what is ment, and 3 what is left untold.

Reading your post has been a relief for me. To know what I’m unable to explain may be some what indicative of a correct Reading of the story.

The kicker is.... that someone has written a story, this great, about a Reader who is seeing. and I myself may be involved and the cause.

Hi @Eliscat   

The longer I engage with the texts the more I have come to appreciate George's technique of setting up elaborate puzzles as a challenge for the reader, encoding multiple meanings that work at so many different levels. Providing new insights on each reread. 

On 12/28/2020 at 10:42 AM, Eliscat said:

Have you an opinion on the idea that all of Westeros is a Garden? That the peoples are not men as we think? That most of the families grew to appear as men. Each related to or grown from an animal, insect, grass, or plant? It ties into the Adam and Cain stuff. A Garden of Martin?  Hemocyanin= green blood from copper and hatred of iron.( even tho it’s purple. Maybe ,green blood is chlorophyll plant people) 

amygdalin and rosacea family?

Or I’m looking to close?

I agree with everything @LynnS has said in her response to you, I shall add a couple of things. 

I think there is a connection between man and beast or man and tree, but not necessarily that man came from that relationship. Rather that it hints at an ancient skinchanger connection with the beasts, an ancient greenseer connection with the trees, and an ancient deep rooted respect for nature and everything in it coming from the early naturalistic religion the 1st men shared with the CotF (which has got somewhat lost over the years)

As for the weirwood trees, I think the reason they show traits of the houses they're associated with (solemn for Stark for example) is that there have been countless greenseers from that bloodline merge with the trees over the years. The blood and family features are therefore transferred into the tree. 

Your idea also brings to mind George's writing technique, as he says his style is that of a gardener. 

Quote

I think there are two types of writers, the architects and the gardeners. The architects plan everything ahead of time, like an architect building a house. They know how many rooms are going to be in the house, what kind of roof they're going to have, where the wires are going to run, what kind of plumbing there's going to be. They have the whole thing designed and blueprinted out before they even nail the first board up. The gardeners dig a hole, drop in a seed and water it. They kind of know what seed it is, they know if planted a fantasy seed or mystery seed or whatever. But as the plant comes up and they water it, they don't know how many branches it's going to have, they find out as it grows. And I'm much more a gardener than an architect.

George R.R. Martin

So, in an appropriately meta response to your post, I suppose the entirety of Westeros and the novels are indeed a garden, grown from George's first seeds sown all those years ago when he thought of those summer snows. 

Thanks for your reply, and welcome to the thread. I see the fine folk here have already made you feel at home, look forward to catching up with all I've missed over the busy Xmas period. 

[Seams]

On 12/28/2020 at 2:38 PM, LongRider said:

I realized from the recent posts that the score is Euron/Vic 3 screaming hinges to Jon Snow’s one. 

Except that shields might equal doors. When Jon opens the Shield Hall at Castle Black - a room that had been shut off for many, many years - he may be opening dozens of new doors. 

I get the shield = door possibility from Brienne asking the woman in Duskendale to paint her shield (with the sigil of Ser Duncan the Tall). The woman had painted an ornate scene on a door before working on Brienne's shield. 

But there is a character in Dunk's trial of seven who also may help us to understand shields and doors: Robyn Rhysling has an oak and iron door for a sigil. He joins Dunk's side in the Trial of Seven which Dunk wins by clobbering his opponent with his own three-headed dragon shield. 

23 hours ago, Eliscat said:

Any thoughts on Sable? Been bugging me from the first reading. Waymar and his sable cloak and moleskin gloves.

There is a bit of exploration of sable as the mark of the "First Ranger = Fur Stranger" in this post.

Within that post is another link that will take you to a 2013 thread called "Obsessed with sable." 

This post starts to explore the weasels, stoats and sables as a motif. 

 

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

On 12/29/2020 at 11:55 AM, Wizz-The-Smith said:

think there is a connection between man and beast or man and tree, but not necessarily that man came from that relationship. Rather that it hints at an ancient skinchanger connection with the beasts, an ancient greenseer connection with the trees

Thank you. I first believed the giants came  from worging with mammoths and next got the idea of “what if” an old proto spirit is evolving or creating it’s own image or reason...and next I’m lost in thoughts forgetting what and why I began to start with.....There should be an emoji of Jamie in a hot tub expressing..”It’s to much”

example. Did the mammoth worg a human or the Spirit, Genius, Loci, of Mammoth make a deal with Man, Monkey.

What came first? The Dragon or the Egg?

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

There is a bit of exploration of sable as the mark of the "First Ranger = Fur Stranger" in this post.

2013?! Bah! 7 years! My mind could have been at ease. Terrible times of nigh fruitless satisfying searches for secret sable and I discover a society of sable searchers have  already been there done and got the T shirt...sigh.

As always thank you.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

On 12/28/2020 at 1:54 PM, LongRider said:

I had forgotten about that!  They were dead though and controlled by different magic than what BR and the CotF have, right?  RIGHT? 

Hey Longie.  

While there are varying ideas on what sorts of different magic there is (ice, fire, water etc) I am of the opinion that they are all a variant from one source. As for whether or not the Others magic is different from that available to Bloodraven and Bran, I don't think it is. Some of the text and ssm's describing the magic of the Others sounds extremely similar to that available to the greenseers. I thought I'd compare them here. 

The Others

- Wind: The Others seem to be able to use the wind. In George's 1993 letter to his publishers the Others are said to 'ride down on the winds of winter'.

- Necromancy: They reanimate corpses.

- Ice magic: In an ssm George has said that 'The Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it' 

Greenseers/old gods 

- Wind: it's well known the wind makes the leaves of the weirwoods rustle, Bloodraven tells Bran his voice is like a whisper on the wind etc. Osha also tells us "who do you think sends the wind, if not the gods?"

- Necromancy: There's Beric representing everything old gods who is associated with coming back from the dead. Additionally, Leaf mentions this ability is one the greenseers can utilise when she says to Bran "He (Ned) is gone boy. Do not seek to call him back from death."

- Water magic: The CotF are famous for their ability to manipulate water as per the tale of 'The Hammer of the Water's'. In my opinion, water magic is the same as Ice magic (ice & water being the same element) but I know there are some in the fandom who would disagree with me. Furthermore, the Other turns into a puddle when Sam slays it, supporting the ice magic=water magic hypothesis. 

In conclusion, these three details describing the nature of Other magic & old gods magic seem to be one and the same. While there is no way I can claim this evidence to be absolutely conclusive, I think they are strong similarities. 

Moreover, it supports my belief that the Others originated from the weirnet in some guise, and thus have access to the same magic as the greenseers, they may even have been greenseers themselves at some point in the past. I predict we may see a representative of the Others (perhaps Night's King) in the weirnet as Bran continues his training in TWOW. 

   

[LongRider]

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

It is mysterious.  Mormont heard the voices as well.

I'm thinking Mormont only heard the second voice, as we only have Jon's reaction to the whispered voice.  I read it as the first voice whispered (to Jon) and the second voice urged which implies said aloud so all could hear.   Still, both voices went unidentified, so yes, mysterious.

[LongRider]

32 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

While there are varying ideas on what sorts of different magic there is (ice, fire, water etc) I am of the opinion that they are all a variant from one source.

I really like this post!  Am gonna read all the posts again, such good ones today.