Time and Causality 2

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Hey Longie.  

 

 

In conclusion, these three details describing the nature of Other magic & old gods magic seem to be one and the same. While there is no way I can claim this evidence to be absolutely conclusive, I think they are strong similarities. 

 

Moreover, it supports my belief that the Others originated from the weirnet in some guise, and thus have access to the same magic as the greenseers, they may even have been greenseers themselves at some point in the past. I predict we may see a representative of the Others (perhaps Night's King) in the weirnet as Bran continues his training in TWOW. 

   

Some of the old Northmen in both camps attribute the snowstorms to the Old Gods' wrath...and they are probably right.

On Winterfell:

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"The gods have turned against us," old Lord Locke was heard to say in the Great Hall. "This is their wroth. A wind as cold as hell itself and snows that never end. We are cursed."

On the crofter's village:

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“What has your southron god to do with snow?” demanded Artos Flint. His black beard was crusted with ice. “This is the wroth of the old gods come upon us. It is them we should appease.”

“Aye,” said Big Bucket Wull. “Red Rahloo means nothing here. You will only make the old gods angry. They are watching from their island.”

Wait until Bran finds the necromancy cookbook and the snow knights manual.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

On 12/29/2020 at 4:08 AM, Tucu said:

We have 3 accounts on the moments surrounding a wight's transformation: Waymar, Thistle and Torwynd. Apparently an extreme cold event is needed but the transformation takes minutes or hours:

First Waymar:

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“Will, where are you?” Ser Waymar called up. “Can you see anything?” He was turning in a slow circle, suddenly wary, his sword in hand. He must have felt them, as Will felt them. There was nothing to see. “Answer me! Why is it so cold?”

It was cold. Shivering, Will clung more tightly to his perch. <...>

He stayed in the tree, scarce daring to breathe, while the moon crept slowly across the black sky. Finally, his muscles cramping and his fingers numb with cold, he climbed down.<...>

Will rose. Ser Waymar Royce stood over him.

His fine clothes were a tatter, his face a ruin. A shard from his sword transfixed the blind white pupil of his left eye.

The right eye was open. The pupil burned blue. It saw.

Torwynd:

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Every nightfall we’d ring our camps with fire. They don’t like fire much, and no mistake. When the snows came, though … snow and sleet and freezing rain, it’s bloody hard to find dry wood or get your kindling lit, and the cold … some nights our fires just seemed to shrivel up and die. Nights like that, you always find some dead come the morning. ’Less they find you first. The night that Torwynd … my boy, he …” Tormund turned his face away.

“I know,” said Jon Snow.

Tormund turned back. “You know nothing. You killed a dead man, aye, I heard. Mance killed a hundred. A man can fight the dead, but when their masters come, when the white mists rise up … how do you fight a mist, crow? Shadows with teeth … air so cold it hurts to breathe, like a knife inside your chest … you do not know, you cannot know … can your sword cut cold?”

And finally Thistle:

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The white world turned and fell away. For a moment it was as if he were inside the weirwood, gazing out through carved red eyes as a dying man twitched feebly on the ground and a madwoman danced blind and bloody underneath the moon, weeping red tears and ripping at her clothes. Then both were gone and he was rising, melting, his spirit borne on some cold wind. He was in the snow and in the clouds, he was a sparrow, a squirrel, an oak.<...>

True death came suddenly; he felt a shock of cold, as if he had been plunged into the icy waters of a frozen lake. Then he found himself rushing over moonlit snows with his packmates close behind him. <...>

When they reached the crest the wolves paused. Thistle, he remembered, and a part of him grieved for what he had lost and another part for what he’d done. Below, the world had turned to ice. Fingers of frost crept slowly up the weirwood, reaching out for each other.<...>

The last to look was the thing that had been Thistle. She wore wool and fur and leather, and over that she wore a coat of hoarfrost that crackled when she moved and glistened in the moonlight. Pale pink icicles hung from her fingertips, ten long knives of frozen blood. And in the pits where her eyes had been, a pale blue light was flickering, lending her coarse features an eerie beauty they had never known in life.

She sees me.

Note that there is no mention of Varamyr's body rising as a wight. Also, the text might be interpreted in a way that Varamyr's soul emerging from the weirwood is what caused the cold wind that killed him and transformed Thistle into a wight.

Hey Tucu.  

I like what you say about an extreme cold event occurring in the moments before turning into a wight. While reading your post I noticed another consistent is the presence of the wind. I've mentioned the Others ability to use the wind as a magic force, as the greenseers do. Seeing as you've already laid out the examples, I thought I'd take a closer look.

Waymar

The wind is an ever present in the AGOT Prologue, following Waymar & co throughout the chapter, blowing cloaks and making them look 'half alive', it's often personified and rather creepy. Curiously, the wind abruptly stops when Waymar arrives at the clearing where he will ultimately face the Others. It's almost as if the wind has enabled the Others to arrive in that particular location. In other words, 'riding on the winds of winter.'

Thistle 

I love what you say regards the wind in the Thistle example. You said...... 

'the text might be interpreted in a way that Varamyr's soul emerging from the weirwood is what caused the cold wind that killed him and transformed Thistle into a wight.'

A cold wind emerging from the weirwood tree to turn Thistle into a wight sounds like the Other's emerging from the weirnet to turn people into wights. Very cool. Anyway, as you point out, it's a strong example of the wind being present and perhaps playing a key role in the transformation from human into wight. 

Torwynd 

We are not actually present for this encounter, instead we're hearing Tormund's account of events, so no wind is present. There is however the mention of the freezing mists (another link to the naturalistic greenseer magic) and also the cold air. It's not much of a stretch to think the wind was also present at Torwynd's death and transformation. 

Although, what I want to look at here is the name itself, Torwynd. The word 'tor' also means hill, which brings to mind the magic and greenseer association with hollow hills. Furthermore, the german meanings for the word 'tor' are gate, gateway, archway, door, arch in the rock & portal. Additionally, the word 'wynd' means wind (as in winding streets) but obviously has the double meaning and is derived from the word wind (as in windy day)  

So the name can be broken down to mean 'gateway or portal in the hill, followed by wind'. To put it another way, a passage or portal for the wind to gain access. 

The reason I think this may be significant is the example of the wind @LongRider provided regarding Othor. Let's check that out. 

Othor

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A north wind had begun to blow by the time the sun went down. Jon could hear it skirling against the Wall and over the icy battlements as he went to the common hall for the evening meal.  

Again, we have a wind present before the transformation of Othor into a wight. (It happens/we see Othor later that evening) People have often wondered how the Others could reanimate the dead if the bodies were south of the Wall, while they are situated north of the Wall. With the 'Torwynd' evidence at hand I'm wondering if they were able to utilise the wind? Torwynd, the wind able to breach the ward in the Wall like a portal or gateway?

In support of this idea, the wind is described as 'skirling' against the Wall. For most readers of asoaif, the word skirling would naturally be followed by the word 'pass'. And the word pass perfectly describes what the Others need to do to reanimate Othor, they have to 'pass' the magic barrier running through the Wall. 

In conclusion, the wind always being present in some guise when a wight transformation occurs looks promising. Perhaps we can explain Othor's reanimation via the skirling wind that blew against the Wall? The Others magical use of the wind is definitely an option for how they get around, so why not a tool they can utilise when raising the dead as their thralls?

Anyway, thought this was pretty sweet and worth a post. 

   

[Seams]

On 12/28/2020 at 9:58 PM, LongRider said:

One last post going back to Storm and the finding of Flowers and Othor. *  We may have an early encounter of Bran and/or BR (one or both?) going back in time.  Here is the scene:

These unidentified voices were brought to my attention in the archived Jon Snow reread.  It's easy to miss so I was glad to have it pointed out.  Jon could not identify who said 'Burn them" even though he knew everyman there, and the second voice isn't identified either.   I don't remember who pointed this out, but a great catch!

 

*AGOT  Jon VII chtr 52

I think GRRM uses that unidentified, disembodied voice from time to time - it is not unique to this situation. At his wedding feast, Joffrey calls for suggestions to name his new sword. An unidentified voice in the crowd suggests "Widow's Wail." 

This may be related: the voices of the Whispering Wood are trying to tell Robb to stop the war and go home, according to Catelyn, who seems to be the only one to hear the voices of the wood. (Catelyn also tries to be heard in Robb's war council but her voice is drowned out by those who want Robb to crown himself. Later, of course, she loses her voice as Lady Stoneheart.)

[Seams]

On 12/28/2020 at 11:08 PM, Tucu said:

“I know,” said Jon Snow.

Tormund turned back. “You know nothing. You killed a dead man, aye, I heard. Mance killed a hundred. A man can fight the dead, but when their masters come, when the white mists rise up … how do you fight a mist, crow? Shadows with teeth … air so cold it hurts to breathe, like a knife inside your chest … you do not know, you cannot know … can your sword cut cold?”

This bit about the mists and the undead Thistle (in the next excerpt you cite) may offer a connection to Catelyn / Lady Stoneheart and the "Alyssa's Tears" waterfall at the Eyrie. The water from the waterfall turns to mist before reaching the ground and the legend says that Alyssa is doomed to grieve for her dead family members until her tears reach the valley floor. Tormund's explanation here may help to define the difference between a river (represented by House Tully's seat at Riverrun and their ascendance over the Riverlands) and the waterfall that turns to mist. A river can be dammed, diverted, forded, etc. No one can touch or fight a waterfall that turns to mist. The waterfall may be a metaphor for the unstoppable Lady Stoneheart. What's dead can never die. 

[Tucu]

@Wizz-The-Smith @Seams

The wind and the mist together with the cold seem to be key elements for rising wights and probably assembling WW. From Catelyn we get the Old Nan tale about the morning ghosts that merge wind, mist and spirits:

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Renly's battles were already coming apart as the rumors spread from mouth to mouth. The nightfires had burned low, and as the east began to lighten the immense mass of Storm's End emerged like a dream of stone while wisps of pale mist raced across the field, flying from the sun on wings of wind. Morning ghosts, she had heard Old Nan call them once, spirits returning to their graves. And Renly one of them now, gone like his brother Robert, like her own dear Ned.

The wind skirling against The Wall and the idea of souls riding the wind as mist reminds me of this quote from Fire&Blood:

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The men of the Night’s Watch were as thunderstruck by the queen’s dragon as the people of White Harbor had been, though the queen herself noted that Silverwing “does not like this Wall.” Though it was summer and the Wall was weeping, the chill of the ice could still be felt whenever the wind blew, and every gust would make the dragon hiss and snap. “Thrice I flew Silverwing high above Castle Black, and thrice I tried to take her north beyond the Wall,” Alysanne wrote to Jaehaerys, “but every time she veered back south again and refused to go. Never before has she refused to take me where I wished to go. I laughed about it when I came down again, so the black brothers would not realize anything was amiss, but it troubled me then and it troubles me still.”

I think we mentioned before in this thread that The Wall is compared to a dam in the chapter in which Tormund's wildlings cross the Wall:

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"Stand fast," Jon Snow called. "Throw them back." He stood atop the Wall, alone. "Flame," he cried, "feed them flame," but there was no one to pay heed.

<...>

“You are a black-hearted bastard, Lord Crow.” Tormund Horn-Blower lifted his own warhorn to his lips. The sound of it echoed off the ice like rolling thunder, and the first of the free folk began to stream toward the gate.

Standfast being the location of the dam in The Sworn Sword.

[Tucu]

@Seams

I looked at the quotes about Alyssa's Tears in Cat and Sansa's chapters and the world book. I just realized that there is a link between them, Bran's falling dream and ghosts.

First the relevant quotes about Alyssa's Tears.

From the world book we get references to a never ending fall and mist.

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It is worth remarking on the statue that stands in the Eyrie's godswood, a fine likeness of the weeping Alyssa Arryn. Legend holds that six thousand years ago, Alyssa saw her husband, brothers, and sons all slain, and that she never shed a tear. Therefore, the gods punished her by not allowing her to rest until her tears fell upon the Vale below. The great waterfall that tumbles from the Giant's Lance is known as Alyssa's Tears, for the waters pour from such a height that they turn to mist long before they ever reach the ground.

From Catelyn in GoT we get references to mist and ghosts:

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Looming over them all was the jagged peak called the Giant's Lance, a mountain that even mountains looked up to, its head lost in icy mists three and a half miles above the valley floor. Over its massive western shoulder flowed the ghost torrent of Alyssa's Tears

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Pale white mists rose off Alyssa's Tears, where the ghost waters plunged over the shoulder of the mountain to begin their long tumble down the face of the Giant's Lance

And in Alayne I in AFFC the fall/mists are now frozen:

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When she had first come to Eyrie, there had been the murmur of Alyssa's Tears as well, but the waterfall was frozen now.

These references remind me of Bran's falling dream:

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It seemed as though he had been falling for years. Fly, a voice whispered in the darkness, but Bran did not know how to fly, so all he could do was fall.<...>

The ground was so far below him he could barely make it out through the grey mists that whirled around him, but he could feel how fast he was falling, and he knew what was waiting for him down there. Even in dreams, you could not fall forever. He would wake up in the instant before he hit the ground, he knew. You always woke up in the instant before you hit the ground.

And if you don’t! the voice asked.

The ground was closer now, still far far away, a thousand miles away, but closer than it had been. It was cold here in the darkness. There was no sun, no stars, only the ground below coming up to smash him, and the grey mists, and the whispering voice. He wanted to cry.

Not cry. Fly.<...>

Bran was falling faster than ever. The grey mists howled around him as he plunged toward the earth below. “What are you doing to me?” he asked the crow, tearful. <...>

Bran looked down, and felt his insides turn to water. The ground was rushing up at him now. The whole world was spread out below him, a tapestry of white and brown and green. He could see everything so clearly that for a moment he forgot to be afraid. He could see the whole realm, and everyone in it. <...>

“Why?” Bran said, not understanding, falling, falling.

Because winter is coming.

Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge. Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid.<...>

Wings unseen drank the wind and filled and pulled him upward. The terrible needles of ice receded below him. The sky opened up above. Bran soared. It was better than climbing. It was better than anything. The world grew small beneath him

Bran is falling and turns to water; then keeps falling towards the frozen wasteland, but rises like the mist before hitting the ground.

[LynnS]

29 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Bran is falling and turns to water; then keeps falling towards the frozen wasteland, but rises like the mist before hitting the ground.

Excellent observation!

[LongRider]

On 12/28/2020 at 8:08 PM, Tucu said:

They were found in the morning and it was noted as quite warm; "The old men called this weather spirit summer, and said it meant the season was giving up its ghosts at last." 

Let's not forget this quote from the finding of Othor and Flowers.  Although it's not wind or cold, the warm weather is thought to be related to the rising of spirits and ghosts.

Later the cold skirling wind raised not ghosts, but wights tucked in the storerooms of Castle Black.

[Tucu]

14 hours ago, LongRider said:

Let's not forget this quote from the finding of Othor and Flowers.  Although it's not wind or cold, the warm weather is thought to be related to the rising of spirits and ghosts.

Later the cold skirling wind raised not ghosts, but wights tucked in the storerooms of Castle Black.

Yes, we get a lot of references to warm weather ghosts and spirits too. Some summer & fire ones:

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Haldon nodded. "Benerro has sent forth the word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned … and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end … death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn …"

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Arya was remembering the stories Old Nan used to tell of Harrenhal. Evil King Harren had walled himself up inside, so Aegon unleashed his dragons and turned the castle into a pyre. Nan said that fiery spirits still haunted the blackened towers. Sometimes men went to sleep safe in their beds and were found dead in the morning, all burnt up. 

Some air ones:

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"A voice from nowhere," Sandor said. He peered through his helm, looking this way and that. "Spirits of the air!"

The prince laughed, as he always laughed when his bodyguard did this mummer's farce. Tyrion was used to it. "Down here."

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Pyat Pree took his leave as well, vowing to petition the Undying Ones for an audience. "A honor rare as summer snows." Before he left he kissed her bare feet with his pale blue lips and pressed on her a gift, a jar of ointment that he swore would let her see the spirits of the air

And a mix of air and water spirits in the Sorrows:

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"This is no common fog, Hugor Hill," Ysilla insisted. "It stinks of sorcery, as you would know if you had a nose to smell it. Many a voyager has been lost here, poleboats and pirates and great river galleys too. They wander forlorn through the mists, searching for a sun they cannot find until madness or hunger claim their lives. There are restless spirits in the air here and tormented souls below the water."

Weirdly, Mel's shadows are cold even though they are supposed to come from R'hllor, the God of Flame. From Catelyn IV in ACOK

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“I beg you in the name of the Mother,” Catelyn began, when a sudden gust of wind flung open the door of the tent. She thought she glimpsed movement, but when she turned her head it was only the king’s shadow shifting against the silken walls. She heard Renly begin a jest, his shadow moving, lifting its sword, black on green, candles guttering, shivering, and then she saw Renly’s sword still in its scabbard, sheathed still, but the shadowsword …

“Cold,” said Renly in a small puzzled voice, a heartbeat before the steel of his gorget parted like cheesecloth beneath the shadow of a blade that was not there He had time to make a small thick gasp before the blood came gushing out of his throat.

And from Brienne's dreams in AFFC:

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That night she dreamed herself in Renly's tent again. All the candles were guttering out, and the cold was thick around her. Something was moving through green darkness, something foul and horrible was hurtling toward her king. She wanted to protect him, but her limbs felt stiff and frozen, and it took more strength than she had just to lift her hand. And when the shadow sword sliced through the green steel gorget and the blood began to flow

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"Cold," her king said, puzzled, and a shadow moved without a man to cast it, and her sweet lord's blood came washing through the green steel of his gorget to drench her hands. He had been a warm man, but his blood was cold as ice

 

[LongRider]

On 12/29/2020 at 4:35 PM, Wizz-The-Smith said:

The Others

- Wind: The Others seem to be able to use the wind. In George's 1993 letter to his publishers the Others are said to 'ride down on the winds of winter'.

- Necromancy: They reanimate corpses.

- Ice magic: In an ssm George has said that 'The Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it' 

Using's Wizz's post #158 as a template, I've looked at the attack of the NW on the Fist of the First Men as told in ASOS in the Prologue and Samwell I.  This first post will look at the wight attack and I'll look at Sam's Other encounter next.

WIND:
"The wind was rising as the shadows lengthened. It made a high thin sound as it shivered through the stones of the ringwall. "I hate that sound," little Giant said. "It sounds like a babe in the brush, wailing away for milk."  Later Chett describes the wind as "picking at the ring wall."  This is just after the men recite their vows with Mormont when discussing battle plans for the attack they knew was coming.  Later Chett notes that "...He found himself listening to the night. The wind did sound like a wailing child" 

NECROMANCY:  The necromancy starts out very subtly with the hunting dogs having an odd reaction to bear prints in the snow:  "The big black bitch had taken one sniff at the bear tracks, backed off, and skulked back to the pack with her tail between her legs. The dogs huddled together miserably on the riverbank as the wind snapped at them."  Chett could not get the dogs to track and the wind is making an appearance here.

Later when attacked Sam describes the wights as 'hundreds' and notes most were wildings but some were wearing 'faded blacks.'  The wights attacked from all sides of the hill and easily breeched the ringwall.  Some were walking and some were crawling.

Among the attackers was a wighted bear. When Sam meets the Other, the Other is riding a wighted horse that had been killed during the escape; "Sam saw one [wight] claw open a garron's belly with its right hand while it clung to the saddle with its left."

ICE MAGIC:  Does ice magic include cold?  In the prologue, the cold is mentioned not only by Chett, the POV character, but other Brothers as well.  Being acclimated to the far North's cold climate, I thought that that is worth mentioning. 

Can Ice Magic include snow? Later in the night it begins to snow ; "Snow was falling. ... It was a heavy fall, thick white flakes coming down all about him."  The deep snow fall would make both the battle and the escape more difficult.  Chett describes the falling snow as, "He felt as though he were being attacked by a cloud of pale cold bugs. They settled on his shoulders, on his head, they flew at his nose and his eyes."  (clever imagery) 

In Samwell I, Sam describes the fight at the Fist and tells of falling and swirling snow during the fight and when the survivors were riding down the hill.  

I would argue that in this attack we have wind, necromancy and ice magic, as what is snow but ice crystals? 

[LongRider]

In ASOS Samwell I, Sam is escaping from the battle at at the Fist with two of his NW Brothers, Grenn and Small Paul when they encounter an Other.  They had been with a group of survivors but had fallen behind and come to a stop.  It was after dark with no moon described. They think they are alone until "The lower branches of the great green sentinel shed their burden of snow with a soft wet plop."  This is when they find they aren't alone as an Other has caught up with them.

Does this encounter meet Wizz's template of Wind, Necromancy and Ice Magic?  Let's see what we find.  

WIND:  "The wind sighed through the trees, driving a fine spray of snow into their faces. The cold was so bitter that Sam felt naked."   This is the only description of the wind and it's driving snow into their faces.

NECROMANCY:  The Other is riding a dead horse with it's guts spilled out.  This horse meets the description of the horse disemboweled in the escape down the hill, plus Small Paul identifies it as the horse of one of the Brothers.

ICE MAGIC:  First question, is the snow spray into their faces a bit of ice magic?  Next, the Other is described as 'pale as ice.'  Sam notes that "...the cold was in him, a cold so savage his bladder felt frozen solid..."  Again I wonder, is the cold apart of the ice magic?  

"The Other slid gracefully from the saddle to stand upon the snow. Sword-slim it was, and milky white. Its armor rippled and shifted as it moved, and its feet did not break the crust of the new-fallen snow."  Walking on top of fresh snow?  Now that's magic.  The Other kills Small Paul and Sam grabs his dragonglass dagger and stabs the Other.  

When stabbed, "He [Sam] heard a crack, like the sound ice makes when it breaks beneath a man's foot, and then a screech so shrill and sharp that he went staggering backward..."  Next "When he opened his eyes the Other's armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked.
Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. "Mother, that's cold."

What I find interesting is what happens to the Other, a creature of ice as it dies; it melts.  It's armor runs in rivelets and it's blue blood hisses and steams.  The flesh swirls into a fine white mist, the bones melt and the dagger was wreathed in steam.   This tells me that dragonglass undoes ice magic. 

It looks like in this scene Wizz's criteria is met.  We have wind, necromancy, and ice magic.

I do have a question though, what made the sentinel pine drop it's snow with a plop?  It was this sound that alerted them that they were not alone, but who alerted them?  It would not be in the Other's interest to do that as he had the element of surprise until that moment.  Is the 'plop' similar to the earlier unidentified voices we've also noted?   As always, mysteries.  

 

[Tucu]

 

1 hour ago, LongRider said:

Using's Wizz's post #158 as a template, I've looked at the attack of the NW on the Fist of the First Men as told in ASOS in the Prologue and Samwell I.  This first post will look at the wight attack and I'll look at Sam's Other encounter next.

WIND:
"The wind was rising as the shadows lengthened. It made a high thin sound as it shivered through the stones of the ringwall. "I hate that sound," little Giant said. "It sounds like a babe in the brush, wailing away for milk."  Later Chett describes the wind as "picking at the ring wall."  This is just after the men recite their vows with Mormont when discussing battle plans for the attack they knew was coming.  Later Chett notes that "...He found himself listening to the night. The wind did sound like a wailing child" 

NECROMANCY:  The necromancy starts out very subtly with the hunting dogs having an odd reaction to bear prints in the snow:  "The big black bitch had taken one sniff at the bear tracks, backed off, and skulked back to the pack with her tail between her legs. The dogs huddled together miserably on the riverbank as the wind snapped at them."  Chett could not get the dogs to track and the wind is making an appearance here.

Later when attacked Sam describes the wights as 'hundreds' and notes most were wildings but some were wearing 'faded blacks.'  The wights attacked from all sides of the hill and easily breeched the ringwall.  Some were walking and some were crawling.

Among the attackers was a wighted bear. When Sam meets the Other, the Other is riding a wighted horse that had been killed during the escape; "Sam saw one [wight] claw open a garron's belly with its right hand while it clung to the saddle with its left."

ICE MAGIC:  Does ice magic include cold?  In the prologue, the cold is mentioned not only by Chett, the POV character, but other Brothers as well.  Being acclimated to the far North's cold climate, I thought that that is worth mentioning. 

Can Ice Magic include snow? Later in the night it begins to snow ; "Snow was falling. ... It was a heavy fall, thick white flakes coming down all about him."  The deep snow fall would make both the battle and the escape more difficult.  Chett describes the falling snow as, "He felt as though he were being attacked by a cloud of pale cold bugs. They settled on his shoulders, on his head, they flew at his nose and his eyes."  (clever imagery) 

In Samwell I, Sam describes the fight at the Fist and tells of falling and swirling snow during the fight and when the survivors were riding down the hill.  

I would argue that in this attack we have wind, necromancy and ice magic, as what is snow but ice crystals? 

There are some maybe subtle references to ghosts and cold events in the ASOS prologue:

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He found himself listening to the night. The wind did sound like a wailing child, and from time to time he could hear men’s voices, a horse’s whinny, a log spitting in the fire. But nothing else. So quiet.

He could see Bessa’s face floating before him. It wasn’t the knife I wanted to put in you, he wanted to tell her. I picked you flowers, wild roses and tansy and goldencups, it took me all morning. His heart was thumping like a drum, so loud he feared it might wake the camp. Ice caked his beard all around his mouth. Where did that come from, with Bessa? Whenever he’d thought of her before, it had only been to remember the way she’d looked, dying. What was wrong with him? He could hardly breathe. Had he gone to sleep? He got to his knees, and something wet and cold touched his nose. Chett looked up.

Snow was falling.

 

[Tucu]

While we are looking at the ASoS prologue and Samwell I, I think that two suspiciously tranquil ravens in the Fist mark the presence of a greenseer. 

When the attack started Sam's ravens were nervous and wanted to fly away. In the prologue

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The ravens were flapping and screaming, flying about their cages and banging off the bars,

Then when Sam sends the first messages to Castle Black and the Shadow Tower:

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His fingers had been so stiff and clumsy in the gloves, and he was shaking from fear and cold, but he found the parchment pouch and dug out the messages he'd written. The ravens were shrieking furiously, and when he opened the Castle Black cage one of them flew right in his face. Two more escaped before Sam could catch one, and when he did it pecked him through his glove, drawing blood. Yet somehow he held on long enough to attach the little roll of parchment. The warhorn had fallen silent by then, but the Fist rang with shouted commands and the clatter of steel. "Fly!" Sam called as he tossed the raven into the air.

The birds in the Shadow Tower cage were screaming and fluttering about so madly that he was afraid to open the door, but he made himself do it anyway. This time he caught the first raven that tried to escape. A moment later, it was clawing its way up through the falling snow, bearing word of the attack.

When the horn blows to abandon the Fist, Sam opens the cages and sees the ravens fly away:

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He had set the birds free when he’d heard the warhorns sound once more, calling the Watch to horse. Two short blasts and a long one, that was the call to mount up. But there was no reason to mount, unless to abandon the Fist, and that meant the battle was lost. The fear bit him so strong then that it was all Sam could do to open the cages. Only as he watched the last raven flap up into the snowstorm did he realize that he had forgotten to send any of the messages he’d written.

But then Sam sees two ravens perched in a rock that fly away lazily when he tries to grab one:

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“No,” he’d squealed, “oh, no, oh, no.” The snow fell and the horns blew; ahooo ahooo ahooooooooooooooooooo, they cried, to horse, to horse, to horse. Sam saw two ravens perched on a rock and ran after them, but the birds flapped off lazily through the swirling snow, in opposite directions.

 

[Seams]

8 hours ago, Tucu said:

He could see Bessa’s face floating before him. It wasn’t the knife I wanted to put in you, he wanted to tell her. I picked you flowers, wild roses and tansy and goldencups, it took me all morning.

I wonder whether this is also a Jafer Flowers reference.

Chett is in pretty important company with his gift of flowers: other characters who give flowers to women are Rhaegar (to Lyanna), Ser Jorah (to Dany) and Ser Loras (to Sansa). When Catelyn recalls her childhood visit to Oldstones and pretending to be Jenny with flowers in her hair, did Petyr Baelish help to pick the flowers for her hair? 

Joffrey's sword, Widow's Wail, is also the name of a flower. 

If flowers (or flowers in the snow) accompany ghosts and death, this helps to clarify the strong reactions when Rhaegar crowns Lyanna as Queen of Love and Beauty. 

[Tucu]

7 hours ago, Seams said:

I wonder whether this is also a Jafer Flowers reference.

Chett is in pretty important company with his gift of flowers: other characters who give flowers to women are Rhaegar (to Lyanna), Ser Jorah (to Dany) and Ser Loras (to Sansa). When Catelyn recalls her childhood visit to Oldstones and pretending to be Jenny with flowers in her hair, did Petyr Baelish help to pick the flowers for her hair? 

Joffrey's sword, Widow's Wail, is also the name of a flower. 

If flowers (or flowers in the snow) accompany ghosts and death, this helps to clarify the strong reactions when Rhaegar crowns Lyanna as Queen of Love and Beauty. 

GRRM selection of flowers in the Chett quote might be important:

wild roses: associated with silence, secrecy and confidentiality in Greek/Roman and Middle Ages culture

Tansy: toxic and abortive

Goldencups: maybe a reference to the Solandra family of flowers like the Solandra Grandiflora that can be hallucinogenic in small doses and fatal in high doses

[LynnS]

16 hours ago, LongRider said:

"The Other slid gracefully from the saddle to stand upon the snow. Sword-slim it was, and milky white. Its armor rippled and shifted as it moved, and its feet did not break the crust of the new-fallen snow."

I'm curious about the description sword-slim.  If Sam is seeing the WW face on... then, it must have similar proportions to make a comparison.  The icy armor ripples and shifts instead of cracking.  It's malleable and while the WW maintains contact with the snow, it is still light as the air.

When Sam strikes it with the dragonglass the spell holding it together in this form, is broken and the cold is drawn out of the WW into the dragonglass. It's made of snow and ice and cold, but it's the cold that binds it together.

I've wondered if the plopping noise of the snow falling from the tree was the WW made on the spot, using snow like clay.

[LynnS]

7 hours ago, Seams said:

I wonder whether this is also a Jafer Flowers reference.

Chett is in pretty important company with his gift of flowers: other characters who give flowers to women are Rhaegar (to Lyanna), Ser Jorah (to Dany) and Ser Loras (to Sansa). When Catelyn recalls her childhood visit to Oldstones and pretending to be Jenny with flowers in her hair, did Petyr Baelish help to pick the flowers for her hair? 

Joffrey's sword, Widow's Wail, is also the name of a flower. 

If flowers (or flowers in the snow) accompany ghosts and death, this helps to clarify the strong reactions when Rhaegar crowns Lyanna as Queen of Love and Beauty. 

When Ned tells Robert that Lyanna was fond of flowers; I can see her wearing them in her hair.  The song Jenny of Oldstones with flowers in her hair also comes to mind.  Jenny also danced with her ghosts and was also described as being a bit wild, not unlike Lyanna. Some also accused her of being a witch.  She married her mystery knight, the prince of dragonflies.  If this is the reference that Rhaegar was making, when he gave Lyanna the crown of roses; I can see why all the smiles died.  Especially if the sad song he played to make the girls cry was Jenny's Song.  Since we are not told what song it was;  the reader that is left in the dark, while the onlookers at the tourney are in the know.  

Meera also tells Bran that Lyanna's story is a sad tale for another time, and so the sad song of Florian and Jonquil, may also be a reference to Lyanna and her Knight.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

23 hours ago, LongRider said:

Using's Wizz's post #158 as a template, I've looked at the attack of the NW on the Fist of the First Men as told in ASOS in the Prologue and Samwell I.  This first post will look at the wight attack and I'll look at Sam's Other encounter next.

Nice, good idea. Glad to see the template held up to scrutiny. In general we can expect to see these clues when the Others are around, not necessary for them all to be present at the same I think, but definitely a hint for the reader. Some other things to look for (as @Tucu has laid out) may be mist and extreme cold descriptors in the text.

23 hours ago, LongRider said:

ICE MAGIC:  Does ice magic include cold?  In the prologue, the cold is mentioned not only by Chett, the POV character, but other Brothers as well.  Being acclimated to the far North's cold climate, I thought that that is worth mentioning

Absolutely. They seem to bring the extreme cold with them. Whether that be freezing air, snow storms etc. Again this is a very greenseer like trait, naturalistic magic, controlling the elements. Of course the Other's use of the elements will always come with these extreme cold descriptions. 

23 hours ago, LongRider said:

Can Ice Magic include snow? Later in the night it begins to snow ; "Snow was falling. ... It was a heavy fall, thick white flakes coming down all about him."  The deep snow fall would make both the battle and the escape more difficult.  Chett describes the falling snow as, "He felt as though he were being attacked by a cloud of pale cold bugs. They settled on his shoulders, on his head, they flew at his nose and his eyes."  (clever imagery)

Great quote to highlight this. Not only is the the snow present, it seems to be attacking the black brothers. The description of the snow flying is another subtle hint this Other magic is reminiscent of the greenseers powers. 

22 hours ago, LongRider said:

What I find interesting is what happens to the Other, a creature of ice as it dies; it melts.  It's armor runs in rivelets and it's blue blood hisses and steams.  The flesh swirls into a fine white mist, the bones melt and the dagger was wreathed in steam.   This tells me that dragonglass undoes ice magic.

There's that mist again. And yes, dragonglass undoes ice magic, in fact I'm fairly certain George has confirmed this in an ssm, but I can't find it. He says something along the lines of......

"Sam breaks the spell when he stabs the Other with the dragonglass dagger"

If anyone can find that quote it would be great. (I'll have another look as well)

22 hours ago, LongRider said:

It looks like in this scene Wizz's criteria is met.  We have wind, necromancy, and ice magic.

22 hours ago, LongRider said:

I do have a question though, what made the sentinel pine drop it's snow with a plop?  It was this sound that alerted them that they were not alone, but who alerted them?  It would not be in the Other's interest to do that as he had the element of surprise until that moment.  Is the 'plop' similar to the earlier unidentified voices we've also noted?   As always, mysteries.  

I agree it would not benefit the Others. In my opinion this is the work of Bloodraven or the greenseers. Whenever something like this happens and it benefits the good guys or the heroes of the story I always think of the greenseers. A good parallel example of this is when Bran is covered by the snow outside Bloodraven's hollow hill......

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The burning wight loomed over him, etched tall against the trees in their snowy shrouds. It was one if the naked ones, Bran saw, in the instant before the nearest tree shook off the snow that covered it and dropped it all down upon his head. 

(Then Bran wakes in the cave....)

Summer was there, sniffing round him, and Hodor, soaking wet. Meera cradled Jojen's head in her lap. And the Arya thing stood over them, clutching her torch. "The snow," Bran said. "It fell on me. Buried me."

"Hid you. I pulled you out." Meera nodded at the girl. "It was her who saved us, though. The torch ... fire kills them."

Whenever the trees/branches tug or pull etc it's always worth checking the scene to see if the trees are helping or trying to warn the characters. (Or hinder the characters) For example, in the AGOT prologue it seems like the trees were trying to stop or warn the head strong Waymar from going any further and encountering the Others. 

Nice little foray into those scenes Longie, cheers. 

[Tucu]

32 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

I agree it would not benefit the Others. In my opinion this is the work of Bloodraven or the greenseers. Whenever something like this happens and it benefits the good guys or the heroes of the story I always think of the greenseers. A good parallel example of this is when Bran is covered by the snow outside Bloodraven's hollow hill......

Whenever the trees/branches tug or pull etc it's always worth checking the scene to see if the trees are helping or trying to warn the characters. (Or hinder the characters) For example, in the AGOT prologue it seems like the trees were trying to stop or warn the head strong Waymar from going any further and encountering the Others. 

Nice little foray into those scenes Longie, cheers. 

I think this quote from Littlefinger applies to the actions of the Greenseers (and the Others if they are not one and the same):

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“Why should I wish him dead?” Littlefinger shrugged. “I had no motive. Besides, I am a thousand leagues away in the Vale. Always keep your foes confused. If they are never certain who you are or what you want, they cannot know what you are like to do next. Sometimes the best way to baffle them is to make moves that have no purpose, or even seem to work against you. Remember that, Sansa, when you come to play the game.”

What... what game?

The only game. The game of thrones

So I like to watch for all the moves that were needed to get Bran safely and secretly from his stone prison in Winterfell to his weirwood throne beyond The Wall

[LongRider]

Happy New Year Wizz Kid!

43 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Absolutely. They seem to bring the extreme cold with them. Whether that be freezing air, snow storms etc. Again this is a very greenseer like trait, naturalistic magic, controlling the elements. Of course the Other's use of the elements will always come with these extreme cold descriptions. 

Hmmmm, like a greenseer you say, that's quite provocative.  I haven't really thought of Gseer magic as naturalistic magic, but yeah, that fits and could fit the Others as well.

43 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Not only is the the snow present, it seems to be attacking the black brothers. The description of the snow flying is another subtle hint this Other magic is reminiscent of the greenseers powers. 

In the Sam chapter the wind is cold and blowing ice crystals in their faces.  He also describes the snow as swirling during the battle on the Fist.

43 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

There's that mist again.

Yes, the mist caught my eye.  I wonder about that mist. 

43 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

I agree it would not benefit the Others. In my opinion this is the work of Bloodraven or the greenseers. Whenever something like this happens and it benefits the good guys or the heroes of the story I always think of the greenseers. A good parallel example of this is when Bran is covered by the snow outside Bloodraven's hollow hill......

 What caught my attention here is that it plops from a sentinel tree.  Interestingly, these trees are found in the WF godswood and stand guard in front of the cave mouth where Bran finds the CotF and BR.   In the Ghost of Winterfell chapter, Theon notes that the sentinel trees in the Godswood "tall soldiers shrouded in cloaks of gloom."  Lastly, Ghost tries to climb the sentinel tree during Theon's attack on WF.   My point here, is the sentinel trees are mentioned many times and sometimes find ways that seem to help the Starks or people associated with the Starks, like Sam.

Also, the ravens flew away from the Fist and weren't mentioned for the rest of Sam's chapter.  Could then, the sentinel trees been on watch for Sam, carrier of dragonglass?

43 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Whenever the trees/branches tug or pull etc it's always worth checking the scene to see if the trees are helping or trying to warn the characters. (Or hinder the characters) 

I think so too and the 'plop' helped Sam and company.  These two chapters are packed full of great stuff.