The Commentator Posted December 11, 2020 Share Posted December 11, 2020 Well, despite the theories being peddled by some, we can’t be sure how Lyanna ended up where she was. It could have been a kidnapping ordered by King Aerys to prevent Rickard’s nefarious alliance from forming. Rhaegar is a question mark though it was foolish to take on Robert in a fair fight. Brandon is the idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexis-something-Rose Posted December 11, 2020 Share Posted December 11, 2020 3 hours ago, frenin said: The only reason Aerys cared for the mystery knight at all is because he was sure the knigh was Jaime Lannister. You're Aerys, you called the mystery knight a traitor. You're in a small council meeting, someone (Varys probably) tells you that he knows the identity of the mystery knight, it's not Jaime, but rather Lyanna Stark. What do you do? You let her go? She's just a girl after all, but you've already branded her a traitor. Your counsellors (according to the World Book) told you that your son crowning her at the end of the tourney was a political move to help him gain the throne and win the allegiance of Winterfell. Aerys was several marbles short of a basket, and if he listened to anything the men on his small council had to say, you capture the girl to teach everyone involved a lesson. And you can use her as bait to bring her father down to KL, which is what Aerys did with Brandon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATaleofSalt&Onions Posted December 11, 2020 Share Posted December 11, 2020 4 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said: I don't think you can really put Rhaegar on the list, because we still don't know what happened. You say he eloped or kidnapped Lyanna, I say he was rescuing her from his father who found out that she was the mystery knight at Harrenhal, that person he named a traitor, and sent men after her to bring her to KL for his judgement. I have a few issues with this theory: - This isn't by itself entirely invalidating, but the question of timeline and how this came to be comes to mind given what we know. Rhaegar left Dragonstone after Aegon's birth on a trip that eventually led him to the Riverlands. From the wording in the world book, it doesn't sound like he immediately went there, and it wouldn't make sense anyways since he wouldn't be able to get to Lyanna before Aerys's men if that's what prompted his journey. Which leaves the possibility that he somehow found out about Aerys's plan during his journey, and coincidentally was in close enough proximity to get to her before his father's men did? Not technically impossible, but extremely convenient to say the least. - My biggest objection is this: how does this scenario explain Rhaegar's actions after the disappearance? Why would he apparently take Lyanna to Dorne, which has to be like a thousand miles from Harrenhal (we are told Lyanna disappeared near there), going through territory where they could be apprehended by Aerys loyalists at any time. They were in the Riverlands, which was ruled by the future father-in-law of Lyanna's brother. Lyanna's father was on his way to Riverrun for his son's wedding. They were near Harrenhal, a castle ruled by the family of Hoster's wife (who was dead, but that doesn't mean the ties between the Tullys and Whents would be totally gone) as well as one of the two KG that Rhaegar was with. If the priority is keeping Lyanna safe and out of the hands of Aerys, it makes absolutely no sense to leave the Riverlands and go away from her family. And why was Rhaegar MIA for months afterwards, only reappearing after Hightower was sent to get him following the Battle of the Bells? - If Ned's recollection of the KG's dialogue at the ToJ is accurate, it's pretty brazen of them to play up their loyalty and oaths, and lament how Aerys would still be on the throne if they had been at the Trident, if they essentially committed treason by assisting Rhaegar in hiding someone wanted by the king. - Lastly, why does Aerys not publicly make any indication that he wants Lyanna? This is a guy who was openly executing high nobility and their heirs, and openly demanded the heads of Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon. But throughout all this he keeps his desire to have Lyanna Stark arrested a secret? And apparently makes no further effort to have her apprehended after her disappearance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted December 11, 2020 Share Posted December 11, 2020 3 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said: You're Aerys, you called the mystery knight a traitor. You're in a small council meeting, someone (Varys probably) tells you that he knows the identity of the mystery knight, it's not Jaime, but rather Lyanna Stark. What do you do? You let her go? She's just a girl after all, but you've already branded her a traitor. But the only reason you call her a traitor is because you believe she's Jaime, Jaime ¿may? be doing treason by returning to the tourney, Lyanna not so much. 3 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said: Your counsellors (according to the World Book) told you that your son crowning her at the end of the tourney was a political move to help him gain the throne and win the allegiance of Winterfell. You need to do little, he has already gained the ire of the Starks by doing it, it's clear that the Starks seem loyal enough. 3 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said: Aerys was several marbles short of a basket, and if he listened to anything the men on his small council had to say, you capture the girl to teach everyone involved a lesson. And you can use her as bait to bring her father down to KL, which is what Aerys did with Brandon. Fair enough, yet we're told that Aerys bored and forgot things as soon as he obsessed over it. What are the odds than not only anyone is going to actually going to care about who the mystery knight is?? Then you return her to her family or allies, her brother was about to marry in Riverrun, Aerys certainly is not going to ask for her head, even if he does, Rhaegar can use it to force the hand of the STAB alliance , they just happen to have a big big army, you may even befriend Robert again. He can go to them and say, "see how my father is dangerous?? I really need you to pull this off" He makes peace with the Starks, who are now indebtedd to him, he makes peace with Robert, who is now indebted to him and he calms Jon Arryn and makes him see that he's not trying to screw his foster sons. He comes from that stronger and the most powerful man in the land. Him not doing none of that but actually just disappearing with her without giving her family and fiancé a reason to believe anything else than kidnapping, that kidnapping is the official version told by either party, that the author calls him lovestruck... It maybe that Rhaegar told Lyanna some convoluted story like that to earn her trust early on but for that story to be true... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broken one Posted December 11, 2020 Share Posted December 11, 2020 Lyanna "kidnapping" happened next year after the tourney, I doubt if the investigation on mystery knight's identity still continued. Plus the king should have relaxed by its outcome... the girl a traitor? Is it a treason to show up as mystery knight anyway? I was wondering what made Aerys so upset and what frenin said makes sense. Actually it is the only solution I can think of that makes sense. Still I do not think he kidnapped her, but maybe keeping up such appearances was better for her reputation (like Rhaegar put her honor before his own). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted December 11, 2020 Share Posted December 11, 2020 It does look quite stupid when the Stark men keep doing the same thing over and over. Ned, Robb, Jon, Brandon all storm off to confront someone with more power than them, without thinking it through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James West Posted December 11, 2020 Share Posted December 11, 2020 All three are idiots but each in his own way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willam Stark Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 Robert has nothing to in this list, he didn't had other choices but Rebellion since Aerys wanted his head without explanation, and lord Baratheon had every reason to think that the King was backing up Rhaegar, who had kidnapped his bride. The Lovestruck Prince and the Angry Wolf are the real idiots in this case and the medal goes...to the Last Dragon ! Rhaegar started the whole thing and dug his own grave in doing so, Brandon is a few steps behind of course, only Cersei can surpass their stupidity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRANDON GREYSTARK Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 On 12/11/2020 at 3:36 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said: So fundamentally the rebellion happened due to one Mad King and 3 idiots: - Rhaegar running away with the daughter of a Lord Paramount and the bethroded of another - Brandon marching to the gates of King's Landing demanding the Crown Prince's head - Robert thinking himself in love and thinking it must have been rape and making the war against House Targaryen instead of against Aerys. The only question is, who was the bigger idiot? I would leave Robert out of it , because he went to war with the IT when they went to war with him . The biggest idiots were Brandon and Rhaegar's entourages ,who was not driven by lust, rage or prophecy , but rode into hell with eyes wide open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 Replace Robert with Aerys, and then we a have discussion, fat sot doesn't belong here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 On 12/11/2020 at 11:14 AM, Widowmaker 811 said: Well, despite the theories being peddled by some, we can’t be sure how Lyanna ended up where she was. It could have been a kidnapping ordered by King Aerys to prevent Rickard’s nefarious alliance from forming. Rhaegar is a question mark though it was foolish to take on Robert in a fair fight. Brandon is the idiot. I remember I made a thread on Rhaegar’s gaffe at the Trident; he had the high ground, he should have made Robert cross the Trident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lord of the Crossing Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 Who was the bigger idiot, Rhaegar, Brandon or Robert? Robert was not too big of an idiot. He was just incompetent. There is a difference. He is more than adequate on the battlefield and the fighting arts. But sucked at administration and management. Rhaegar was also good enough in the martial arts and playing music. I believe he would have sucked at management and administration too. Brandon would have sucked at those things as well. Brandon Stark is one of the leading candidates to have fathered Jon Snow with his sister, Lyanna Stark. His overreaction to the news of her "kidnapping" makes sense under this theory. It is a long way to King's Landing and he stayed out of control and in a fit of rage the whole time! All of these men behaved like idiots in some ways. Rhaegar should have threatened to kill Lyanna if the rebels don't surrender. That is, if he was the one who had custody and in command of the KGs. Perhaps he was not. Maybe he could send her pinky finger to Ned and Robert, promise forgiveness if they surrender. Rhaegar was the biggest idiot of the three. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 On 12/11/2020 at 8:36 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said: - Brandon marching to the gates of King's Landing demanding the Crown Prince's head I will never stop believing that this was a lie. It would take a witness not a second or even third hand narrator about what happened. Yes Brandon was hot headed, had wolf blood, and yes he went to KL. None of them means that he starts screaming outside of city walls. Unless this particular thing never happened, unless there was a spider next to the King who informed him that the heir of the North was threatening his Throne and that he should do something about that. For me the fault belongs to the two Targs the Mad King and the Deluded Prince. With no elopement there would had been no reaction from the rest of the Great Houses and then with a coup d'etat the Prince would had become the King. But he preferred to disappear with Lyanna than helping the Realm, which in turn resulted to thousands dying for his choice. Rhaegar is as much to blame as Aerys for what happened. Brandon and Robert were being presented with a fait accompli and they had to act with the information they had to save their families and themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 On 12/13/2020 at 1:45 PM, The Lord of the Crossing said: Brandon Stark is one of the leading candidates to have fathered Jon Snow with his sister, Lyanna Stark. I don’t think that there are sperm banks in Westeros to preserve the sperm of a man who died more than a year before the birth of his child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kolx Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 There’s still a lot we don’t know about the RhaegarxLyanna thing, so I would say Brandon. Even if Aerys wasnt sadistic and paranoid, asking for the prince head would still be seen as a threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Sword Posted April 15, 2021 Share Posted April 15, 2021 Honourable mention to Ned for biggest idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted April 15, 2021 Share Posted April 15, 2021 23 minutes ago, Northern Sword said: Honourable mention to Ned for biggest idiot. How was Ned to blame for the rebellion at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targaryeninkingslanding Posted April 15, 2021 Share Posted April 15, 2021 Lets be fair, their moves were all blunders, but none of these things is what caused the war. Robert's Rebellion started when Jon Arryn refused to hand Ned Stark over to Mad King Aerys. That is what caused the banners to raise in rebellion, or rather allowed. And to be fair this war was going to happen anyways, its just that these events sped things up and gave pretext for war. I mean wasn't that the whole point of southern ambitions. Build a power block through alliances to challenge, overthrow or secede from a Dragon-less Targaryen Dynasty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted April 15, 2021 Share Posted April 15, 2021 12 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said: I mean wasn't that the whole point of southern ambitions. Build a power block through alliances to challenge, overthrow or secede from a Dragon-less Targaryen Dynasty? Νο it wasn't. If we believe Lady Dustin who was bitter because she wasn't Brandon's wife, Rickard wanted to do what the nobility was doing since the beginning. Improving his family’s social standing through marriage. The only one we know that for sure wanted to overthrow Aerys was Rhaegar and maybe the Maesters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targaryeninkingslanding Posted April 15, 2021 Share Posted April 15, 2021 Lady dustin is bitter, but i don't get much of a sense that she is lying to Theon. And even if your right, the maesters do seem to be anti-targ, and were also helping form this block to the end of making war on the Targs. in that case we should blame Rickon's maester for the war, the order for manipulating them into being in the alliances that made the rebellion possible, and rickard for being manipulated. in which case Rickard wins biggest idiot, for being manipulated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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