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Alyn Oakenfist

Who was the bigger idiot, Rhaegar, Brandon or Robert?

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32 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

Lady dustin is bitter, but i don't get much of a sense that she is lying to Theon. And even if your right, the maesters do seem to be anti-targ, and were also helping form this block to the end of making war on the Targs. 

in that case we should blame Rickon's maester for the war, the order for manipulating them into being in the alliances that made the rebellion possible, and rickard for being manipulated.

in which case Rickard wins biggest idiot, for being manipulated

I am not talking about lying. I say that she was bitter because more valuable bride was chosen. That is how nobility works they marry the best possible candidate to strengthen their ties and their position. I cannot see how Rickard wanting to marry his children with the best possible spouse they could find means that he was conspiring to overthrow Aerys. Especially since there is nothing in the text to prove that and the only information we have about it are the words of a bitter scorned woman.

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15 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

I am not talking about lying. I say that she was bitter because more valuable bride was chosen. That is how nobility works they marry the best possible candidate to strengthen their ties and their position. I cannot see how Rickard wanting to marry his children with the best possible spouse they could find means that he was conspiring to overthrow Aerys. Especially since there is nothing in the text to prove that and the only information we have about it are the words of a bitter scorned woman.

I think its difficult to determine Rickards motivations without getting more information or insight. He may have wanted great matches for his children for lots of reasons - power, prestige, rich dowries, trade links, better bloodlines for his grandchildren, military help against future enemies, building an anti Targaryen alliance or all of the above. 

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44 minutes ago, Lady_Qohor said:

I think its difficult to determine Rickards motivations without getting more information or insight. He may have wanted great matches for his children for lots of reasons - power, prestige, rich dowries, trade links, better bloodlines for his grandchildren, military help against future enemies, building an anti Targaryen alliance or all of the above. 

I don’t disagree of course there is a possibility of him conspiring with the rest of the Westerosi lords but since we don’t know if he actually did it it’s wrong our theories to be based on the textless hypothesis that he was trying to conspire against the Targaryens.

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Posted (edited)
On 12/11/2020 at 6:25 AM, Canon Claude said:

Especially when he clearly knows that his king is insane. And what was he honestly expecting? Just imagine that scene and it’s utterly ludicrous. A group of noblemen on horseback from out of town, riding up to the gates, and the big guy leading them starts shouting for the crown prince to come out and die. Can you imagine the guards just looking down at them and wondering if they’re drunk? Then imagine one of them approaching King Aerys and saying something like “Uh, your Grace, we’ve got some fellows who want to kill the prince. They’re outside the gates, should we kill them for treason or capture them? Either one works, they really just came here of their own volition, and they’re outnumbered... no, I’m not joking, your grace, they’re just blatantly committing treason in front of us.”

LMAO :bowdown:.

 

And the award for Biggest Idiot goes to.......... Brandon Stark! Whaddaya think a mad king is going to think when you ride up to his castle gates screaming for his heir to "come out and die"? 

Edited by Jaenara Belarys

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2 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

And the award for Biggest Idiot goes to.......... Brandon Stark! Whaddaya think a mad king is going to think when you ride up to his castle gates screaming for his heir to "come out and die"? 

Mad king - that's the problem. Anyone else in the nobility would think Brandon was asking for a duel. Which he was. Gallant fool.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Mad king - that's the problem. Anyone else in the nobility would think Brandon was asking for a duel. Which he was. Gallant fool.

No, I'd think that Brandon was going to murder my heir. And he's not gallant, he's just a fool.

Edited by Jaenara Belarys

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Just now, Jaenara Belarys said:

No, I'd think that Brandon was going to murder my heir.

Would that be gallant?

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1 minute ago, Springwatch said:

Would that be gallant?

No, that's why I said he's just a fool, not a gallant fool.

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9 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

No, that's why I said he's just a fool, not a gallant fool.

Sure. That's because you weren't born into a culture of duelling. Brandon, Rhaegar, Hoster, even Aerys - all were.

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4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Sure. That's because you weren't born into a culture of duelling. Brandon, Rhaegar, Hoster, even Aerys - all were.

I highly doubt that it was considered an acceptable thing to threaten a royal family member’s life, even on the grounds of duelling. And duelling wasn’t technically legal in places like England or France, it’s not like you could just publicly slap the Heir apparent with a glove and expect the right to kill him in combat without consequences. 
 

Brandon was an idiot, and his companions were even bigger idiots for going along with it and getting themselves killed.

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4 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

I highly doubt that it was considered an acceptable thing to threaten a royal family member’s life, even on the grounds of duelling. And duelling wasn’t technically legal in places like England or France, it’s not like you could just publicly slap the Heir apparent with a glove and expect the right to kill him in combat without consequences. 
 

Brandon was an idiot, and his companions were even bigger idiots for going along with it and getting themselves killed.

Duelling is considered acceptable among the nobility all of them and Rhaegar's actions called for far more lenient approach of the law.

Brandon and his companions would have gotten away with it under any King with two braincells.

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2 hours ago, frenin said:

Duelling is considered acceptable among the nobility all of them and Rhaegar's actions called for far more lenient approach of the law.

Brandon and his companions would have gotten away with it under any King with two braincells.

This dumbass didn't ask for a duel, he's threatened to kill Rhaegar which is a crime punishable by death. 

That's why Rickard has asked for a trial by combat, he knew that his son screwed up and deserved death legally. Aerys screwed up when he refused to give Rickard the combat he wanted to save the life of his dumbass son, and killed him. 

In doing so, he broked his duty as a liege lord firstly, then as king.

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On 12/11/2020 at 2:36 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So fundamentally the rebellion happened due to one Mad King and 3 idiots:

- Rhaegar running away with the daughter of a Lord Paramount and the bethroded of another

- Brandon marching to the gates of King's Landing demanding the Crown Prince's head

- Robert thinking himself in love and thinking it must have been rape and making the war against House Targaryen instead of against Aerys.

The only question is, who was the bigger idiot?

Its Brandon by a mile. 

Rhaegar was a Prince, and heir to the throne at that. High born ladies as mistresses is nothing new. 

Robert was the aggrieved party. He had every right to demand justice..... while in the Vale with Jon Arryn by his side. 

 

but Brandon, yea, he marched to the capital with like 6 men.  Made no sense.  

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11 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

I highly doubt that it was considered an acceptable thing to threaten a royal family member’s life, even on the grounds of duelling.

The threat was entirely symbolic - even if Rhaegar had been in the castle, he would be defended by armies and castle walls and Kingsguard. The chances of him being murdered were zero - only a mad king would fail to register this.

Both sides have to agree to a duel; Rhaegar only risks harm if he chooses to come out of the castle and accept the challenge, and as Rhaegar is a very skilled fighter, Brandon might not come out on top.

11 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

And duelling wasn’t technically legal in places like England or France, it’s not like you could just publicly slap the Heir apparent with a glove and expect the right to kill him in combat without consequences. 

It is legal in Westeros though, as shown by the Petyr duel. It also appears as the Trial by Combat, sacred to both the Seven and R'hllor - so it is embedded in the culture. We don't have enough examples to know how often a duel ends in death; but the rules of the game seem to be that the loser can save his life by yielding. So there wouldn't be the 'right' to kill someone in combat without consequences.

So Brandon can't kill Rhaegar by murder, warfare or a duel (except by accident) - he's just venting his rage and grief at Lyanna's abduction and rape (as he sees it).

(And I'm guessing that if historically a real Heir Apparent abducted and raped someone's sister, he might expect a challenge to a duel, at the very least.)

11 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

Brandon was an idiot, and his companions were even bigger idiots for going along with it and getting themselves killed.

That degree of stupidity does not exist. Even if Brandon literally went mad with fury, his companions would still be sane, so what did they think was going to happen?

A duel makes sense at every stage. An insane murder plot just doesn't - why strain to believe something when you've got a good alternative?

 

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6 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

This dumbass didn't ask for a duel, he's threatened to kill Rhaegar which is a crime punishable by death. 

Which is code for duel. Or do you think that if he asked him to duel he wouldn't be showing murderous intentions?

 

6 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

High born ladies as mistresses is nothing new. 

That high?? They certainly are. No daughter of a great lord has ever been taken as mistress. For fairly obvious reasons.

And Rhaegar didn't just take her as mistress, he straight up kidnapped a betrothed high born lady. 

 

Lyanna was the daughter of a Great Lord, betrothed to a great lord, whose surrogate father was yet another Great Lord and her brother was going to marry the eldest daughter of yet another Great Lord.

Stupid.

 

 

6 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

That's why Rickard has asked for a trial by combat,

Not because his son was literally a prisoner??  I don't really see how that proves he knew his son deserved death lol, nobles have gotten away with way worse than that.

 

 

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

A duel makes sense at every stage. An insane murder plot just doesn't - why strain to believe something when you've got a good alternative?

As i see it, people want to give Rhaegar and Lyanna an out, so pointing the blame on others works.

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Well, let's cross Robert off the list. In the context of the society he lived in, Rhaegar's actions were a major insult to many parties, particularly Robert. In a feudal society where honor is very high in importance.

Rhaegar knew he would cause trouble. Entitled, lacking morals (he was married and a father), and knew it would cause a problem.

 

But Brandon Stark rode into the middle of the capital with a handful of men demanding Rhaegar "come out and die". The middle of the capital, surrounded and outnumbered, to those serving a man known as the "mad king". Brandon gets the cake.

 

 

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Brandon's an idiot because he rode up to the Red Keep's gates shouting for the Prince of Dragonstone to "come out and die". For chrissake, how do you think a mad king is going to react to that threat, symbolic or not?

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10 hours ago, Springwatch said:

The threat was entirely symbolic - even if Rhaegar had been in the castle, he would be defended by armies and castle walls and Kingsguard. The chances of him being murdered were zero - only a mad king would fail to register this.

Both sides have to agree to a duel; Rhaegar only risks harm if he chooses to come out of the castle and accept the challenge, and as Rhaegar is a very skilled fighter, Brandon might not come out on top.

It is legal in Westeros though, as shown by the Petyr duel. It also appears as the Trial by Combat, sacred to both the Seven and R'hllor - so it is embedded in the culture. We don't have enough examples to know how often a duel ends in death; but the rules of the game seem to be that the loser can save his life by yielding. So there wouldn't be the 'right' to kill someone in combat without consequences.

So Brandon can't kill Rhaegar by murder, warfare or a duel (except by accident) - he's just venting his rage and grief at Lyanna's abduction and rape (as he sees it).

(And I'm guessing that if historically a real Heir Apparent abducted and raped someone's sister, he might expect a challenge to a duel, at the very least.)

That degree of stupidity does not exist. Even if Brandon literally went mad with fury, his companions would still be sane, so what did they think was going to happen?

A duel makes sense at every stage. An insane murder plot just doesn't - why strain to believe something when you've got a good alternative?

 

That still doesn’t get Brandon off the hook. It’s no secret by that point that Aerys is mad. Brandon saw him with his own eyes at the tourney. If it’s so obvious that he’s insane, and he’s still the King on the Iron Throne, he’s likely to do something insane when confronted with a challenge to his son. 

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9 hours ago, frenin said:

As i see it, people want to give Rhaegar and Lyanna an out, so pointing the blame on others works.

Well said. People conveniently forget that Brandon went to KL for a reason and that we don’t have a witness of what happened. It was Rhaegar decision to dishonour 3 Great Houses, Starks, Baratheons and Martells and 2 more by association, Tullys and Arryns. Brandon saying come out and die is as possible as he never said anything like that and that is yet another of Varys’ conspiracies to make Aerys even more paranoid. The only truth is what Rhaegar and Lyanna did, what Brandon did is just a rumour.

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8 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

That still doesn’t get Brandon off the hook. It’s no secret by that point that Aerys is mad. Brandon saw him with his own eyes at the tourney. If it’s so obvious that he’s insane, and he’s still the King on the Iron Throne, he’s likely to do something insane when confronted with a challenge to his son. 

It was reckless, yeah. But he thought he was dealing with Rhaegar. Also, he was very short of options, and feeling desperate because Lyanna couldn't be found. A duel is probably the only way of calling a crown prince to account.

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