Matt Smith, Olivia Cooke, Emma D’Arcy Cast in House of the Dragon

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, Ran said:

Very much disagree on the rather simplistic read of Daeron the Daring. If the savage murder of an infant by the townsmen is shown in any detail, the reprisal will be probably be received by viewers as harsh but deserved justice.

In the book the guilty parties are punished by Lady Caswell, and she makes attempts to make amends for what transpired.

You do very much realize that what happened was not done at the command or with the knowledge/approval of either Rhaenyra or House Caswell, right? And definitely not with the knowledge/approval/involvement of the good people of Bitterbridge (sans the guilty people interacting with Thorne and Maelor).

And the funny aspect here is that if compare relative shittiness here then, well, the murder of Lucerys Velaryon didn't result in Rhaenyra Targaryen commanding a holocaust of Storm's End because that's the place where the deed happened - or all of King's Landing because that's where the murderer Aemond lived. Only the Greens devolve to the level of collective punishment of entire towns - first with Bitterbridge and then later with Tumbleton and continuing with Borros Baratheon and Aegon II 'cleansing' KL after the riots.

A more sympathetic view of Daeron in the show could work if they either omit Lady Caswell's punishment of the perpetrators or have the people killing Maelor do it at the command of Rhaenyra or her representatives. Alternatively, Daeron could be portrayed as speaking against the sack of the city in spite of what happened. That would make him a sympathetic, good guy. And actually much more line with FaB trying to make him a 'good guy' again at Tumbleton where is abhorred by what happened there ... which cannot have been much worse in general than what he and Tessarion did to the good people of Bitterbridge.

The book gives us him, personally, as a man who burns down an entire town on his dragon. That is neither good nor sympathetic ... instead, it actually is more of the bigger war crimes in the Dance of the Dragons, especially when you consider how helpless people in a walled town are when attacked in this manner.

If George wanted to portray Daeron as a good guy he just failed. He shouldn't have included Daeron and his dragon specifically in the sack of Bitterbridge.

15 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

But here's the thing: To make this interesting, the Greens gotta have good characters among them: These ones should be Alicent (yes, I think she can be portrayed as a partially good character, in some way like Rhaenyra, but pushing all this because of his son), Helaena and Daeron. Now, Helaena cannot really be a main character in the show. Or at least I don't know how. Then there's Daeron, who also does not participate in the main plot but can have an interesting journey and can be considered a victim of his own family in the end. Then there's Alicent, who has to have an understandable reason. They have to make her character lovable (or at least her ambitions acceptable) to really generate an inner conflict inside the wiever. Also, at the beginning, back when Alicent tought gis future son takes Rhaenyra's place the moment he's born, they pretty much had a normal relationship. Friendship isn't that far from that, honestly.

Actually, Helaena could easily get more screen time in the show than the books - both by focusing more on her during the reign of her father, etc.

A really difficult problem is what to do with Aegon II while he is hiding. If they show where he is, then the entire surprise plot goes down the toilet.

15 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I can also see them making up a friendship between Daeron and one of the Strongs, or giving Daeron a love interest, maybe him siding with the Greens because they are the family.

They can also make the Strongs not that loveable (I mean Luke) for cutting out Aemond's eye (at such a young age, Aemond's real personality might still be mostly unrevealed).

Overall, they seem to have made Alicent and Rhaenyra be roughly of the same age if the actresses are any indication, so we should expect Rhaenyra's sons and Alicent's children to be much closer in age, meaning we won't get as ridiculous a setting as three-year-olds fighting ten-year-olds but rather a setting where both Rhaenyra's boys and Aemond are in their early teens at the Vhagar incident.

And, yes, Daeron and one of Rhaenyra's sons could also be close to each other, just as Helaena and Jace could also like each - as might be sort of implied at that feast where Aegon the Elder gets pissed that Jace wanted to dance with Helaena.

It could work if there was sympathy between some people there even after the war starts, and various characters - like Corlys - try and fail to make peace.

I'd also expect that there is going to be a lot of Daemon action going on in the first season - with Rhaenyra and Alicent both having the hots for him, competing for him, etc. before Alicent marries the king.

[Daeron the Daring]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The book gives us him, personally, as a man who burns down an entire town on his dragon. That is neither good nor sympathetic ... instead, it actually is more of the bigger war crimes in the Dance of the Dragons, especially when you consider how helpless people in a walled town are when attacked in this manner.

The book tells us that Hightower let Daeron choose to sack the city or not, and Daeron chose to sack the city. It is said that he burned down the inn Ser Rickard Thorne's true identity was found out, and that the fire later burned down a good part of the town. Then the sack happened, by the men of Lord Ormund Hightower.

I honestly find it hilarious that Lord Hightower gave Daeron, a 13 year old boy at that time, the chance to take revenge on an entire city, even tho it was the people who murdered Maelor in the end.

Ormund Hightower made a big mistake there, Daeron made an even bigger one, I admit that, but he shouldn't have gotten the chance to decide to sack the town or not. Other than that, we barely know anything about him that determines his personality. But it's hella sure he was hot-headed and immature, due to not only deciding to sack the city, but blaming Maelor's death on Lady Caswell.

[Sotan]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

All that makes a general mixed heritage for the Velaryons at this point somewhat problematic. Especially since it is not something that could be easily 'bred out of the bloodline' to assume there will be 'whiter Velaryons' in the later ages because a black Alyn Velaryon (son or grandson of Corlys) would be marrying his black cousin Baela Targaryen, daughter of the black Laena Velaryon and Daemon Targaryen. And presumably the later Velaryons are all descended from these two.

I know 2 different unrelated people each with one black grandparent and I wouldn't have known that unless they told me, because I thought they were white. Which is why 2-3 generations of mixing with white Westerosi would deal with the issue above. As for Corlys himself, if they give him silver hair/white wig that would solve a lot of problems. What I'm trying to say is its not an impossible hurdle. 

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Sotan said:

I know 2 different unrelated people each with one black grandparent and I wouldn't have known that unless they told me, because I thought they were white. Which is why 2-3 generations of mixing with white Westerosi would deal with the issue above. As for Corlys himself, if they give him silver hair/white wig that would solve a lot of problems. What I'm trying to say is its not an impossible hurdle. 

You are right, it is not that big of a problem. But I'd guess that in the incestuous Targaryen bloodline - and the Velaryons who also seem to be pretty fond of cousin marriages (e.g. Alyn and Baela) - such a trait would be visible much longer.

My personal issue there just has to do with me having to imagine a bunch of people somewhat more different than previously. People where the looks are pretty clear - unlike with the Hightowers and Strongs and others we mentioned above.

11 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

The book tells us that Hightower let Daeron choose to sack the city or not, and Daeron chose to sack the city. It is said that he burned down the inn Ser Rickard Thorne's true identity was found out, and that the fire later burned down a good part of the town. Then the sack happened, by the men of Lord Ormund Hightower.

I honestly find it hilarious that Lord Hightower gave Daeron, a 13 year old boy at that time, the chance to take revenge on an entire city, even tho it was the people who murdered Maelor in the end.

Ormund Hightower made a big mistake there, Daeron made an even bigger one, I admit that, but he shouldn't have gotten the chance to decide to sack the town or not. Other than that, we barely know anything about him that determines his personality. But it's hella sure he was hot-headed and immature, due to not only deciding to sack the city, but blaming Maelor's death on Lady Caswell.

Daeron was somewhat older at that time, already fifteen, if I'm not mistaken (like Jace he was born late in 114 AC, meaning he turned fifteen in 129 AC).

There isn't really a good reason to sack that town especially since they even seemed to know what had transpired. After all, they do target the Hog's Head first, which sort of implies Lord Ormund did receive the dragon egg and Lady Caswell's message:

Quote

When Lady Caswell appeared on the ramparts of her castle to ask for the same terms Lady Merryweather had received, Hightower let Prince Daeron give the answer: “You shall receive the same terms you gave my nephew Maelor.” Her ladyship could only watch as Bitterbridge was sacked. The Hogs Head was the first building put to the torch. Inns, guild halls, storehouses, the homes of the mean and the mighty, dragonflame consumed them all. Even the sept was burned, with hundreds of wounded still within. Only the bridge remained untouched, as it was required to cross the Mander. The people of the town were put to the sword if they tried to fight or flee, or were driven into the river to drown.

Lady Caswell watched from her walls, then commanded that her gates be thrown open. “No castle can be held against a dragon,” she told her garrison. When Lord Hightower rode up, he found her standing atop the gatehouse with a noose about her neck. “Have mercy on my children, lord,” she begged, before throwing herself down to hang. Mayhaps that moved Lord Ormund, for her ladyship’s young sons and daughter were spared and sent in chains to Oldtown. The men of the castle garrison received no mercy but the sword.

As I said, this can count as one of the bigger war crimes in the Dance, considering that hundreds, possibly thousands of innocent people were brutally butchered, burned, and drowned.

The only difference to Tumbleton seem to be the number of dragons involved and the way the victors dealt with the survivors - which were treated much more horribly than the people of Bitterbridge.

The impression we get is that all of Bitterbridge was burned down and that Daeron the Daring did the deed because it is stated that dragonflame consumed the buildings.

And, as I said, this kind of collective punishment for something that is, in essence, just a cruel accident is vastly out of proportion. It is basically like blaming Robb for the deeds of the Bloody Mummers in service of Roose Bolton. Neither Rhaenyra nor Lady Caswell had any idea that Rickard Thorne and Prince Maelor were in the town.

[Sotan]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You are right, it is not that big of a problem. But I'd guess that in the incestuous Targaryen bloodline - and the Velaryons who also seem to be pretty fond of cousin marriages (e.g. Alyn and Baela) - such a trait would be visible much longer.

My personal issue there just has to do with me having to imagine a bunch of people somewhat more different than previously. People where the looks are pretty clear - unlike with the Hightowers and Strongs and others we mentioned above.

You're right on both counts. 

[Daeron the Daring]

20 minutes ago, Sotan said:

I know 2 different unrelated people each with one black grandparent and I wouldn't have known that unless they told me, because I thought they were white. Which is why 2-3 generations of mixing with white Westerosi would deal with the issue above. As for Corlys himself, if they give him silver hair/white wig that would solve a lot of problems. What I'm trying to say is its not an impossible hurdle. 

I mean, one of Alexandre Dumas' grandmother was a black african slave woman, but the guy pretty almost showed no sign of having black ancestry. However, his father (who's mother was black) was considered a mixation of the 2 races. But this is an exceptional case, however.

That means that characters like Laena, Laenor, Alyn and Addam should have a lighter, but still black skin. Then I can't imagine Baela and Rhaena instantly getting the pale valyrian skincolor. Not even the standard variation of white skincolor. So I just can't really except not to get any difference between the looks of the Strongs and the children of Laena that will not matter.

[Sotan]

6 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I mean, one of Alexandre Dumas' grandmother was a black african slave woman, but the guy pretty almost showed no sign of having black ancestry. However, his father (who's mother was black) was considered a mixation of the 2 races. But this is an exceptional case, however.

That means that characters like Laena, Laenor, Alyn and Addam should have a lighter, but still black skin. Then I can't imagine Baela and Rhaena instantly getting the pale valyrian skincolor. Not even the standard variation of white skincolor. So I just can't really except not to get any difference between the looks of the Strongs and the children of Laena that will not matter.

We'll see how they do it, speculation is fun though. 

[Daeron the Daring]

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Daeron was somewhat older at that time, already fifteen, if I'm not mistaken (like Jace he was born late in 114 AC, meaning he turned fifteen in 129 AC).

There isn't really a good reason to sack that town especially since they even seemed to know what had transpired. After all, they do target the Hog's Head first, which sort of implies Lord Ormund did receive the dragon egg and Lady Caswell's message:

Quote

When Lady Caswell appeared on the ramparts of her castle to ask for the same terms Lady Merryweather had received, Hightower let Prince Daeron give the answer: “You shall receive the same terms you gave my nephew Maelor.” Her ladyship could only watch as Bitterbridge was sacked. The Hogs Head was the first building put to the torch. Inns, guild halls, storehouses, the homes of the mean and the mighty, dragonflame consumed them all. Even the sept was burned, with hundreds of wounded still within. Only the bridge remained untouched, as it was required to cross the Mander. The people of the town were put to the sword if they tried to fight or flee, or were driven into the river to drown.

Lady Caswell watched from her walls, then commanded that her gates be thrown open. “No castle can be held against a dragon,” she told her garrison. When Lord Hightower rode up, he found her standing atop the gatehouse with a noose about her neck. “Have mercy on my children, lord,” she begged, before throwing herself down to hang. Mayhaps that moved Lord Ormund, for her ladyship’s young sons and daughter were spared and sent in chains to Oldtown. The men of the castle garrison received no mercy but the sword.

As I said, this can count as one of the bigger war crimes in the Dance, considering that hundreds, possibly thousands of innocent people were brutally butchered, burned, and drowned.

The only difference to Tumbleton seem to be the number of dragons involved and the way the victors dealt with the survivors - which were treated much more horribly than the people of Bitterbridge.

The impression we get is that all of Bitterbridge was burned down and that Daeron the Daring did the deed because it is stated that dragonflame consumed the buildings.

And, as I said, this kind of collective punishment for something that is, in essence, just a cruel accident is vastly out of proportion. It is basically like blaming Robb for the deeds of the Bloody Mummers in service of Roose Bolton. Neither Rhaenyra nor Lady Caswell had any idea that Rickard Thorne and Prince Maelor were in the town.

Yea, you're right, I admit that. I don't really know where I've got the idea that the fire later spreaded (honestly, I think the translated version wrote it down that way). Either Way, it was him who decided to sack the city for no reason (or to revenge Maelor, which is nonsense), as we both pointed out above.

[Sotan]

15 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I mean, one of Alexandre Dumas' grandmother was a black african slave woman, but the guy pretty almost showed no sign of having black ancestry. However, his father (who's mother was black) was considered a mixation of the 2 races. But this is an exceptional case, however.

That means that characters like Laena, Laenor, Alyn and Addam should have a lighter, but still black skin. Then I can't imagine Baela and Rhaena instantly getting the pale valyrian skincolor. Not even the standard variation of white skincolor. So I just can't really except not to get any difference between the looks of the Strongs and the children of Laena that will not matter.

We'll see how they do it, speculation is fun though. 

[Sotan]

I'm not sure if this has been brought up before, but most readers believe that Rhaenyra's boys are Strongs, due to the brown hair and the pug nose; is there any explanation why Corlys and Rhaenys accepted the boys as their grandchildren? Its been a while since I read F&B, so I may have missed/forgotten something. If it was so obvious that the boys were bastards. what were the motivations of the Velaryons? Rhaenys died defending their rights! It just seems crazy to me, unless of course I missed something. 

[Ran]

Because they are raised as the sons of Laenor Velaryon and will be partisans of House Velaryon, regardless of their actual ancestry.

I do wonder what Corlys's plan was regarding inheritance of the family seat and so on, though, admittedly. By rights it would have been one of Rhaenyra's alleged sons by Laenor, and that would mean an end to a Velaryon bloodline (except distantly) ruling the family. Maybe Corlys didn't care, or maybe he had intended to arrange for one of Laena's daughters or something...

[Sotan]

5 minutes ago, Ran said:

Because they are raised as the sons of Laenor Velaryon and will be partisans of House Velaryon, regardless of their actual ancestry.

I do wonder what Corlys's plan was regarding inheritance of the family seat and so on, though, admittedly. By rights it would have been one of Rhaenyra's alleged sons by Laenor, and that would mean an end to a Velaryon bloodline (except distantly) ruling the family. Maybe Corlys didn't care, or maybe he had intended to arrange for one of Laena's daughters or something...

Wow I really thought I forgot a crucial piece of info, from what you're telling me it looks like it was never really explained how Corlys and Rhaenys felt and why they supported Rhaenyra and her boys. The show is going to have to explain that. 

[Daeron the Daring]

8 minutes ago, Ran said:

Because they are raised as the sons of Laenor Velaryon and will be partisans of House Velaryon, regardless of their actual ancestry.

I do wonder what Corlys's plan was regarding inheritance of the family seat and so on, though, admittedly. By rights it would have been one of Rhaenyra's alleged sons by Laenor, and that would mean an end to a Velaryon bloodline (except distantly) ruling the family. Maybe Corlys didn't care, or maybe he had intended to arrange for one of Laena's daughters or something...

If Corlys knew the 3 boys were bastards, the Velaryon bloodline would've continued, trough Rhaena. Jacaerys was Rhaenyra's heir, Lucerys was Laenor's, and he was betrothed to Rhaena. And either way Laena's daughters would've come next in line, I think. But I don't know if Corlys knew it. 

Edit: Simply because Laenor never claimed they aren't his sons. Corlys might have believed his son.

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, Ran said:

Because they are raised as the sons of Laenor Velaryon and will be partisans of House Velaryon, regardless of their actual ancestry.

I do wonder what Corlys's plan was regarding inheritance of the family seat and so on, though, admittedly. By rights it would have been one of Rhaenyra's alleged sons by Laenor, and that would mean an end to a Velaryon bloodline (except distantly) ruling the family. Maybe Corlys didn't care, or maybe he had intended to arrange for one of Laena's daughters or something...

It is clearly implied that Corlys Velaryon is a man not obsessed with things like biological ancestry. His grandsons were his grandsons, period.

After all, if they weren't Laenor's sons then because Laenor chose not the father any sons. And if that were the case, then his parents would have been forced to make their peace with that a long time ago.

But Rhaenyra betrothed Jace and Luke to Daemon's daughters by Laena, so that way 'the Velaryon bloodline' would continue.

[Ran]

1 minute ago, Daeron the Daring said:

If Corlys knew the 3 boys were bastards, the Velaryon bloodline would've continued, trough Rhaena. Jacaerys was Rhaenyra's heir, Lucerys was Laenor's, and he was beteother to Rhaena. And either way Laena's daughters would've come next in line, I think. But I don't know if Corlys knew it. 

Edit: Simply because Laenor never claimed they aren't his sons. Corlys might have believed his son.

Forgot the Lucerys betrothal. That solves that.

[Sotan]

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is clearly implied that Corlys Velaryon is a man not obsessed with things like biological ancestry. His grandsons were his grandsons, period.

After all, if they weren't Laenor's sons then because Laenor chose not the father any sons. And if that were the case, then his parents would have been forced to make their peace with that a long time ago.

But Rhaenyra betrothed Jace and Luke to Daemon's daughters by Laena, so that way 'the Velaryon bloodline' would continue.

I'm really curious to see how that plays out. On the one hand like you said, the whole paternity plot like is a rehash of Cersei's, but it does create juicy drama between all the main characters. I'm excited to see what they do with it.  

[Daeron the Daring]

36 minutes ago, Sotan said:

I'm really curious to see how that plays out. On the one hand like you said, the whole paternity plot like is a rehash of Cersei's, but it does create juicy drama between all the main characters. I'm excited to see what they do with it.  

Once you think trough, it makes no sense from Corlys to expose the truth about Rhaenyra's children. This way, on of his granddaughter would've become queen, the other one Lady of Driftmark. If he exposes the truth about Jake, Luke and Joff, he loses royal favor and support (even back in the time of Viserys), his good relation with Rhaenyra and Daemon, and and he'd have to find someone who marries Baela or Rhaena matrilinearry, so that the Velaryon name will not die out (tho that wouldn't been that big of a problem, considering that House Velaryon was pretty large back then). And then there's the entire scandal thing. It would've been a shame for him (and for House Targaryen too) if his son was unable to make heirs and his daughter-in-law even produced 3 bastards while being married to his son. Not to mention that this way he secured blood connection for his family with the Targaryens.

[Lord Varys]

Guys, in general, there is no chance that Rhaenys and Corlys didn't know what Laenor was ... or didn't know his take on being a husband and father. He and Rhaenyra lived apart during their marriage, and Laenor entertained what favorites and friends he had in his father's castle of High Tide.

Whatever things Laenor did with his friends ... and didn't do with Rhaenyra would have been no secret to Laenor's parents. Even more so in later years when Laena had married Daemon and Rhaenyra had grown 'more than fond' of Laena, hanging out much with Daemon and Laena.

There is no chance whatsoever that Rhaenyra cuckolded and cheated on Laenor. If the boys weren't Laenor's seed then because Laenor didn't want to have children with his wife. He acknowledged those children as his sons, and attended the birth of each of the children. If there had been the slightest indication that Laenor and the Velaryons had been humiliated or cheated by Rhaenyra - and they could have used the looks of the boys as an accusation in this regard - then Corlys and Rhaenys could have joined team Green ... or they could at least have decided to not support Rhaenyra, remaining aloof of the conflict.

Instead, they do side with Rhaenyra and Daemon against Corlys' nephew Vaemond in this entire affair, and even the Hull boys end up firmly in the Black camp with Jacaerys even sponsoring their legitimization decree.

Unlike with Robert's family, the Targaryen-Velaryon clan of that era is pretty much a functional family despite the challenges the arranged marriage of Rhaenyra and Laenor caused them all.

4 hours ago, Sotan said:

I'm really curious to see how that plays out. On the one hand like you said, the whole paternity plot like is a rehash of Cersei's, but it does create juicy drama between all the main characters. I'm excited to see what they do with it.  

If they take their time with the entire story and stretch it over a season or so then this story could be quite interesting. It would be interesting to see who those people are and what they are about. What's old and boring is the academic question who the father is ... not so much the why of it all. Why didn't Laenor bother fathering children? Couldn't he do it? Didn't he want to? Was Rhaenyra in love with Harwin Strong? Did they have orgies together? And so on.

3 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Once you think trough, it makes no sense from Corlys to expose the truth about Rhaenyra's children. This way, on of his granddaughter would've become queen, the other one Lady of Driftmark. If he exposes the truth about Jake, Luke and Joff, he loses royal favor and support (even back in the time of Viserys), his good relation with Rhaenyra and Daemon, and and he'd have to find someone who marries Baela or Rhaena matrilinearry, so that the Velaryon name will not die out (tho that wouldn't been that big of a problem, considering that House Velaryon was pretty large back then). And then there's the entire scandal thing. It would've been a shame for him (and for House Targaryen too) if his son was unable to make heirs and his daughter-in-law even produced 3 bastards while being married to his son. Not to mention that this way he secured blood connection for his family with the Targaryens.

Corlys Velaryon was proud of his three grandsons and viewed them as Velaryons, so it is quite clear he didn't care who the father was.

And if you consider how late Corlys Velaryon married - he was nearly forty in 90 AC at his wedding - and that he and his wife had just two children, it doesn't look as if he was particularly interested or invested in continuing his bloodline. He even postponed Laena's wedding for quite some time, further reducing the chance that he would have grandchildren.

If you think about how the Velaryons could have profited from destroying Rhaenyra if they had wanted that it is not that difficult to imagine - Corlys and Laenor could have accused Rhaenyra of adultery, she could have been disgraced and destroyed for that, and her children could have been declared bastards. And then either Laena or Laena's daughters by Daemon could have been married to Aegon the Elder and Aemond to unite the two branches that way.

Another possibility would have been - and that's clearly something Daemon seemed to aim at as a possibility when he married Laena who was the rider of the largest dragon alive - to build up Daemon and Laena as rival pretenders to the Hightower-Targaryens. Laena had the largest dragon and was the eldest scion of the elder line of House Targaryen, and Daemon was an ambitious warrior and general. If Rhaenyra had been out of the way then a succession war could have broken out between Alicent and her sons on the one side (with Aegon II then being the chosen heir of Viserys I) and Daemon and the Velaryons on the other side.

[Sotan]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And if you consider how late Corlys Velaryon married - he was nearly forty in 90 AC at his wedding - and that he and his wife had just two children, it doesn't look as if he was particularly interested or invested in continuing his bloodline. He even postponed Laena's wedding for quite some time, further reducing the chance that he would have grandchildren.

If you think about how the Velaryons could have profited from destroying Rhaenyra if they had wanted that it is not that difficult to imagine - Corlys and Laenor could have accused Rhaenyra of adultery, she could have been disgraced and destroyed for that, and her children could have been declared bastards. And then either Laena or Laena's daughters by Daemon could have been married to Aegon the Elder and Aemond to unite the two branches that way.

Another possibility would have been - and that's clearly something Daemon seemed to aim at as a possibility when he married Laena who was the rider of the largest dragon alive - to build up Daemon and Laena as rival pretenders to the Hightower-Targaryens. Laena had the largest dragon and was the eldest scion of the elder line of House Targaryen, and Daemon was an ambitious warrior and general. If Rhaenyra had been out of the way then a succession war could have broken out between Alicent and her sons on the one side (with Aegon II then being the chosen heir of Viserys I) and Daemon and the Velaryons on the other side.

I loved your whole post, but this part blew me away. I'm going to reread F&B now.

Corlys seems very modern considering the time/place he lives in, same for Laenor; gay nobleman/monarchs usually married and reproduced. The only one I can think of that eschewed marriage and had his male favorites around him was William Rufus of England-a son of Willian the Conqueror who succeeded his father.  As for Rhaenyra's sons, for all we know the boys received their hair color from their Arryn and Baratheon ancestors. There is just so much rich material here, no wonder they decided to adapt The Dance. 

[Werthead]

On 2/15/2021 at 8:27 PM, Tha Shiznit said:

I have to say it's disheartening to see online that people are already claiming the show is going the sjw route, without even waiting for the show to come out. The fuss about casting Corlys Velaryon has black is not a big deal given that this a show, and that the show runners are likely taking created liberties in how too tell the story. The only "quote" legitimate artistic licensing description of Corlys Velaryon that I could find were black and white illustration by Doug Wheatley and it was in Fire & Blood page 602, with his death shown collapsing on the steps has a old man. 

It's worth reiterating the point someone made earlier about GRRM signing off on casting. In addition, GRRM has a relatively close hand in this production. Although he's not writing directly for it, one of his close friends, assistants and aides is, and Condal is a long-term fan of the series who's been in communication with GRRM about a possible Westeros project from long before any of these shows was a thing.

I have no doubt that HBO said, "we need to vary things up here," but I also have no doubt that GRRM was consulted heavily in the process and helped them work out the logistics of how it would work with the Strong story (making the Strongs also black - which again has zero bearing on GoT since the Strongs are long extinct - would simply eliminate the problem). It helps that the Velaryons played zero role in GoT itself, so they don't need to explain any inconsistencies there. If they announced that they were casting an Asian actor for Cregan Stark or something along those lines, that would be a bigger question mark.

It also ties into some of the rumoured changes from the proposed Valyrian project, which would have had a much more multicultural Valyria, I suspect either a Valyrian middle/lower class with the all the variation you'd expect from a Rome-level civilisation but ruled over by the more monocultural silver-haired Valyrians we know, or maybe a situation where the Valyrian Freeholder houses had become mixed between the "purebloods" who practised inbreeding and families who had embraced greater change (with perhaps the rise of the Targaryens being helped by them being a minor house but one which cleaved to the pureblood way of things). It makes the worldbuilding more nuanced and less "everyone from here looks like this," and follows the general trend of ASoIaF's worldbuilding being pretty simplistic back in AGoT and then getting more complex with each succeeding volume.