Jump to content
Westeros

Matt Smith, Olivia Cooke, Emma D’Arcy Cast in House of the Dragon

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

But I'll ask again: How does black people fit into medieval white society as nobles? 

Because basically there is no indication that a Westerosi nobleman or noblewoman wouldn't or couldn't marry nobility from abroad who don't look like the Andals or the First Men.

There is no indication that 'black noble culture' wouldn't fit in Westerosi society on principle. We even have Jalabhar Xho at court. He could marry a highborn lady easily enough.

What's impossible is that (highest or mid-tier) nobility intermarry with commoners, but foreign nobility shouldn't pose any problems.

Quote

How isn't it more important to have accuracy of a major character that's culture is well-known, and being black doesn't fit into that culture, than Salladhor Saan's culture, the culture that doesn't even matter to the actual plot, because it is connected only to an episodic character?? Corlys will be one the main characters in the show.

My point there was that I find Lysene culture as portrayed and introduced by GRRM in the books to be more important than the skin color of a particular recurring character. Corlys Velaryon can technically be black, but Salladhor Saan shouldn't have been black - and neither should Daxos, just as Talisa Maegyr from Volantis shouldn't have been black-haired.

And to be sure - we have no idea who Corlys' parents even were. Of course, he isn't black in FaB, but if they gave him a black mother - which is what I think they would do if they would do this - then they do not really change established book facts for that because George didn't give us Corlys' parents.

That would be a very minor change, all things considered.

Quote

Also, why would it make sense for House Velaryon to marry a Summer Islander prince? 

Why did Doran Martell marry Mellario of Norvos or Lord Denys Darklyn Merala of Myr? Even the Targaryens married foreigners four times - Tyanna of Pentos, Larra Rogare, and two times Kiera of Tyrosh. Five times if you count Daemon Blackfyre marrying Rohanne of Tyrosh.

And if Aegon IV can have a black highborn paramour in Bellegere Otherys then certainly a Velaryon could marry a similar woman. That wouldn't even be particularly exceptional, I imagine, considering the status of the Velaryons as seafarers and merchant lords. They would have more contacts abroad than most other lords.

Edited by Lord Varys

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Because basically there is no indication that a Westerosi nobleman or noblewoman wouldn't or couldn't marry nobility from abroad who don't look like the Andals or the First Men.

No there isn't. That does not mean that it ever happened or might happen, tho the idea is good.

 

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no indication that 'black noble culture' wouldn't fit in Westerosi society on principle. We even have Jalabhar Xho at court. He could marry a highborn lady easily enough.

He's simply a colorful guest at court, that's all.

 

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

What's impossible is that (highest or mid-tier) nobility intermarry with commoners, but foreign nobility shouldn't pose any problems.

But foreign nobility had no interest in Wedteros ever. Except for a FEW from the FREE CITIES.

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Corlys Velaryon can technically be black, but Salladhor Saan shouldn't have been black - and neither should Daxos, just as Talisa Maegyr from Volantis shouldn't have been black-haired.

Technically none of them should be black, since they're simply not. I can't understand how Salladhor's (an episodical character's) look/accuracy matters more than Corlys'.

 

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

My point there was that I find Lysene culture as portrayed and introduced by GRRM in the books to be more important than the skin color of a particular recurring culture. Corlys Velaryon can technically be black, but Salladhor Saan shouldn't have been black - and neither should Daxos, just as Talisa Maegyr from Volantis shouldn't have been black-haired.

Isn't it more manageable to believe that a Summer Islander married a Lysene (Lys is pretty close to the Summer Island compared to Westeros) than a Westerosi noble? I think it is.

I do not agree on making any characters black that are supposed to not be one. But Lysene culture mattered nothing in the plot of GoT, while Corlys is part of the well-known westerosi/valyrian culture.

25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That would be a very minor change, all things considered.

Not at all. Making a character black that is supposed to be not only white, but Valyrian too, and actually standing in the middle of the story is nowhere near a small change.

 

26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Why did Doran Martell marry Mellario of Norvos or Lord Denys Darklyn Merala of Myr? Even the Targaryens married foreigners four times - Tyanna of Pentos, Larra Rogare, and two times Kiera of Tyrosh. Five times if you count Daemon Blackfyre marrying Rohanne of Tyrosh.

It makes sense for House Targaryen to marry with foreign Valyrian nobility, after all. And Doran married for love, and these people are all from one of the free cities.

 

29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And if Aegon IV can have a black highborn paramour in Bellegere Otherys then certainly a Velaryon could marry a similar woman.

Bellegere was a lover of Aegon IV, not his wife. And Bellegere is said to having someine to lay with in every corner of the known world.

 

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That wouldn't even be particularly exceptional, I imagine, considering the status of the Velaryons as seafarers and merchant lords. They would have more contacts abroad than most other lords.

Even tho they're merchant lords, never happened anything even close to this. They always married with Westerosi nobility, as far as we know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

He's simply a colorful guest at court, that's all.

He becomes a companion of Margaery's and Cersei decides to make him one of the men she accuses of committing adultery with the queen - and that's not seen as a weird scandal ... just as Xho being part of Margaery's entourage isn't. He may come from a different culture, but he is still nobility.

31 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Technically none of them should be black, since they're simply not. I can't understand how Salladhor's (an episodical character's) look/accuracy matters more than Corlys'.

But Salladhor Saan is more of a character than Corlys Velaryon ever was. Corlys is a historical figure who never showed up in a novel. We do have outlines of things he did and we have a historian giving him a couple of lines, but that's it.

And to be sure - GoT never so much as mentioned the Velaryons. They are unchartered territory, so to speak. I think they won't change their history of Targaryen cousins coming from Valyria, but they actually could do that. They will change and add a lot to turn George's outline into an actual TV show.

31 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Isn't it more manageable to believe that a Summer Islander married a Lysene (Lys is pretty close to the Summer Island compared to Westeros) than a Westerosi noble? I think it is.

To be sure, it is, but then - Salla simply isn't described as Lysene in the show, so this is just odd.

31 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I do not agree on making any characters black that are supposed to not be one. But Lysene culture mattered nothing in the plot of GoT, while Corlys is part of the well-known westerosi/valyrian culture.

No, he isn't, because GoT nor ASoIaF very much elaborates on 'Valyrian culture'. Sure, ASoIaF also establishes who the Velaryons are, but they are just extras in the books so far. HoD is going to have to establish the Velaryons as a noble house ... and how much their culture matters there remains to be seen.

From ASoIaF it is certainly possible that some Velaryon in the past could have married a Summer Islander. We only meet Monford and Aurane Waters, after all. Who is to say that 200+ years ago some ancestor of theirs didn't marry a black woman?

The important part of the Velaryon family is that they were close kin to the Targaryens and provided three brides for their princes. And that they were great seafarers. Their looks aren't *that* important.

31 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Not at all. Making a character black that is supposed to be not only white, but Valyrian too, and actually standing in the middle of the story is nowhere near a small change.

A big change would be if Corlys no longer did the things he does.

31 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

It makes sense for House Targaryen to marry with foreign Valyrian nobility, after all. And Doran married for love, and these people are all from one of the free cities.

Corlys' mother and father could also have married for love. But it could also have been an arranged marriage. We don't know for books or show.

Hell, now that I think of it, perhaps somebody can get George to give us the names of Corlys' parents if the show differs from the books there. That would be great.

31 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Bellegere was a lover of Aegon IV, not his wife. And Bellegere is said to having someine to lay with in every corner of the known world.

Aegon couldn't marry any of his mistresses because he was already married.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Lord Varys

We just can't agree on this one. 

This comes from me seeing Velaryons and their origin/accuracy as more important to the show than you do. It's understandable, but not acceptable for me. In the end, my opinion is just the same:

Characters that aren't supposed to be black should not be portrayed as one, and vice versa. Neither the opposite is acceptable, tho there's never been such a case, as far as I know, for some reason.

Good day to you, sir! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Corlys' mother and father could also have married for love. But it could also have been an arranged marriage. We don't know for books or show.

Hell, now that I think of it, perhaps somebody can get George to give us the names of Corlys' parents if the show differs from the books there. That would be great.

I forgot that Corys;s mother is not named in the books!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, LadyTargaryen1 said:

Just now. If those scenes have any kind of connection to the plot - and that's not all that likely - then Cole will have a more chequered past than he does in the book. The lord who was killed would have been Lord Dondarrion, one imagines.

The second scene pretty much is a ripoff from the Arys-Arianne scene from AFfC - the other princess there isn't Rhaenyra but Myrcella - but this, too, would indicate that Criston Cole is going to be man torn between duty and the desire for (at least) two women ... most likely Rhaenyra and Alicent.

Chances are not that bad that he might become Alicent's lover after whatever he has with Rhaenyra ends.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Just now. If those scenes have any kind of connection to the plot - and that's not all that likely - then Cole will have a more chequered past than he does in the book. The lord who was killed would have been Lord Dondarrion, one imagines.

The second scene pretty much is a ripoff from the Arys-Arianne scene from AFfC - the other princess there isn't Rhaenyra but Myrcella - but this, too, would indicate that Criston Cole is going to be man torn between duty and the desire for (at least) two women ... most likely Rhaenyra and Alicent.

Chances are not that bad that he might become Alicent's lover after whatever he has with Rhaenyra ends.

Would he cuckhold the king though? Interesting since that seen takes place directly after Alicent (or who I assume to be Alicent) accuses him of killing his Lord.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, LadyTargaryen1 said:

Would he cuckhold the king though? Interesting since that seen takes place directly after Alicent (or who I assume to be Alicent) accuses him of killing his Lord.

The first scene may have some bearing of plot in the show, but chances are very low that Alicent Hightower is going to choose Cole to be Rhaenyra's sworn shield. That would be she herself, through King Viserys.

Also things are contradictory in that scene, anyway. First the guy asks to protect the lady in question and then lady said lady seem to be referring to the king's heir, i.e. Rhaenyra, as the woman he would like to protect.

Her talking about 'the king's brother' in a somewhat distant manner would also imply that if this woman was Alicent she was not yet the queen at that point, but merely a lady of the court the king trusted with sensitive business.

As for your question:

We have to wait and see how far Criston Cole falls in all that. He pisses on Viserys I's corpse when crowns Aegon II, so chances are not that bad that he would have also slept with his wife. The latter wouldn't be that big of a betrayal as the former.

If he can only think about destroying Rhaenyra after their breakup chances wouldn't be that bad that he would end up in a relationship with Alicent, simply as part of them combining resources and stuff.

But since they are playing there with the Arys-Arianne scenario there will clearly be more than one woman Cole has feelings for. He will be torn between duty and pleasure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The first scene may have some bearing of plot in the show, but chances are very low that Alicent Hightower is going to choose Cole to be Rhaenyra's sworn shield. That would be she herself, through King Viserys.

Also things are contradictory in that scene, anyway. First the guy asks to protect the lady in question and then lady said lady seem to be referring to the king's heir, i.e. Rhaenyra, as the woman he would like to protect.

Her talking about 'the king's brother' in a somewhat distant manner would also imply that if this woman was Alicent she was not yet the queen at that point, but merely a lady of the court the king trusted with sensitive business.

As for your question:

We have to wait and see how far Criston Cole falls in all that. He pisses on Viserys I's corpse when crowns Aegon II, so chances are not that bad that he would have also slept with his wife. The latter wouldn't be that big of a betrayal as the former.

If he can only think about destroying Rhaenyra after their breakup chances wouldn't be that bad that he would end up in a relationship with Alicent, simply as part of them combining resources and stuff.

But since they are playing there with the Arys-Arianne scenario there will clearly be more than one woman Cole has feelings for. He will be torn between duty and pleasure.

Makes sense. Based on the wiki these seems will have happened in 104-105 AC, because that's when the Tourney at Maidenpool where he defeats Daemon happens, and he mentions "taking the white" which happens in 105. Viserys and Alicent married in 106, so you're right that she wasn't queen at this point

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For all we know, even that first Cristin Cole audition segment is just made up dialogue for the audition itself with no bearing on actual plot points. Nice to see but nothing really new in it.

Well it’ll have Harold Westerling in it and he died in 112 AC

Edited by The Dragon Demands

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

But I'll ask again: How does black people fit into medieval white society nobles?

1 - medieval people didn’t have the same concept of race that we do.

2 - they’ve been in “Westeros” only a century - half a century considering Corlys’s age.  Before that they were in the racially mixed Valyrian Freehold.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

For all we know, even that first Cristina Cole audition segment is just made up dialogue for the audition itself with no bearing on actual plot points. Nice to see but nothing really new in it.

Well it’ll have Harold Westerling in it and he died in 112 AC

The first scene would add a bit of characterization to Criston that paints him more sympathetic. But I can't figure out why Alicent Hightower would have known Lord Dondarrion's heir "from childhood" or why someone would send a shadow baby after him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah stuff from audition tapes rarely is ( unless it’s a direct book quote).  It’s just a placeholder.

Edited by The Dragon Demands

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Yeah stuff from audition tapes rarely is ( unless it’s a direct book quote).  It’s just a placeholder.

Oh ok. Well this guy looks the part, I'm interested in seeing what else he brings to the table

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As Redanian said, people usually only publicly post auction tapes for projects they were already rejected from - probably.

Edited by The Dragon Demands

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/19/2021 at 5:58 PM, Daeron the Daring said:

I cannot agree with you on this one. Isn't it more easier to make a merchant prince and a pirate black than a feudal lord, who intermarries with the royal family at several points?

Someone who haven't read the books imagine Salladhor Saan as a black pirate, and Xaro as a rich dude half a world away. But how could they imagine black mans as lords of a medieval feudal kingdom? And not only this, but that they're supposed to have valyrian look, the exact opposite. House Velaryon's valyrian origin is what bring them so close to Targaryens to get their hands on dragons. It'd be serious bullshit. 

And Corlys (and his descendants too) will be nowhere near an episode character from far away like Saan was. He will be a major character, not inly in the first seasons, but in the lasts too.

It's honestly not a big deal if Corlys is mixed, as it neither affects the past nor future of House Velaryon or House Targaryen. Does it really radically change anything if Addam, Alyn, Laena, and Laenor have one Summer Islander grandparent? Does it radically change anything for Daemon and Laena's kids to have one Summer Islander great-grandparent? Does it radically change Laenor's alleged kids that one of their either grandparent was Summer Islander? I don't see how.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/20/2021 at 4:42 AM, Lord Varys said:

Actually, the paternity plot could work really well with a black Corlys. Just make Rhaenyra's sons by Laenor so white that it doesn't really appear likely that they are the children of Laenor.

But we should also basically forget the idea that the paternity of Laenor's children is going to be 'a secret' in this show.

They will show the marriages of Rhaenyra in great detail - just as they will show the marriage or Viserys-Alicent, Rhaenys-Corlys, Laena-Daemon, etc. - and the chances are very low that we don't know who is fucking who.

Whether this means we'll know who fathered a child is another matter since Rhaenyra could have sex with two or more men around the time any of her sons are conceived, so it might be unclear for that reason.

But if they were to go with Harwin clearly as father of the boys then we are going to get confirmation for that - just as we would if the Strong story is supposed to be slander.

It doesn't work if children look Targaryen, since then they could have said  "they look like mother" and "seed is strong" or something.

Thing with first three children of Rhaenyra is that they don't look at all like their supposed father or mother.

One thing is the viewers to have insight in true parentage , other is that Aemond calling his nephews Strongs, reasons for animosity and Lords supporting the Aegon ,  Ser Vaemond Velaryon's claim etc.

Whole story change seems unnecessary and creates domino effect, which would create more issues along the way.

Edited by Eltharion21

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...