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Matt Smith, Olivia Cooke, Emma D’Arcy Cast in House of the Dragon

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1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

But I'll ask again: How does black people fit into medieval white society as nobles? 

Because basically there is no indication that a Westerosi nobleman or noblewoman wouldn't or couldn't marry nobility from abroad who don't look like the Andals or the First Men.

There is no indication that 'black noble culture' wouldn't fit in Westerosi society on principle. We even have Jalabhar Xho at court. He could marry a highborn lady easily enough.

What's impossible is that (highest or mid-tier) nobility intermarry with commoners, but foreign nobility shouldn't pose any problems.

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How isn't it more important to have accuracy of a major character that's culture is well-known, and being black doesn't fit into that culture, than Salladhor Saan's culture, the culture that doesn't even matter to the actual plot, because it is connected only to an episodic character?? Corlys will be one the main characters in the show.

My point there was that I find Lysene culture as portrayed and introduced by GRRM in the books to be more important than the skin color of a particular recurring character. Corlys Velaryon can technically be black, but Salladhor Saan shouldn't have been black - and neither should Daxos, just as Talisa Maegyr from Volantis shouldn't have been black-haired.

And to be sure - we have no idea who Corlys' parents even were. Of course, he isn't black in FaB, but if they gave him a black mother - which is what I think they would do if they would do this - then they do not really change established book facts for that because George didn't give us Corlys' parents.

That would be a very minor change, all things considered.

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Also, why would it make sense for House Velaryon to marry a Summer Islander prince? 

Why did Doran Martell marry Mellario of Norvos or Lord Denys Darklyn Merala of Myr? Even the Targaryens married foreigners four times - Tyanna of Pentos, Larra Rogare, and two times Kiera of Tyrosh. Five times if you count Daemon Blackfyre marrying Rohanne of Tyrosh.

And if Aegon IV can have a black highborn paramour in Bellegere Otherys then certainly a Velaryon could marry a similar woman. That wouldn't even be particularly exceptional, I imagine, considering the status of the Velaryons as seafarers and merchant lords. They would have more contacts abroad than most other lords.

Edited by Lord Varys

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6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Because basically there is no indication that a Westerosi nobleman or noblewoman wouldn't or couldn't marry nobility from abroad who don't look like the Andals or the First Men.

No there isn't. That does not mean that it ever happened or might happen, tho the idea is good.

 

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no indication that 'black noble culture' wouldn't fit in Westerosi society on principle. We even have Jalabhar Xho at court. He could marry a highborn lady easily enough.

He's simply a colorful guest at court, that's all.

 

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

What's impossible is that (highest or mid-tier) nobility intermarry with commoners, but foreign nobility shouldn't pose any problems.

But foreign nobility had no interest in Wedteros ever. Except for a FEW from the FREE CITIES.

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Corlys Velaryon can technically be black, but Salladhor Saan shouldn't have been black - and neither should Daxos, just as Talisa Maegyr from Volantis shouldn't have been black-haired.

Technically none of them should be black, since they're simply not. I can't understand how Salladhor's (an episodical character's) look/accuracy matters more than Corlys'.

 

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

My point there was that I find Lysene culture as portrayed and introduced by GRRM in the books to be more important than the skin color of a particular recurring culture. Corlys Velaryon can technically be black, but Salladhor Saan shouldn't have been black - and neither should Daxos, just as Talisa Maegyr from Volantis shouldn't have been black-haired.

Isn't it more manageable to believe that a Summer Islander married a Lysene (Lys is pretty close to the Summer Island compared to Westeros) than a Westerosi noble? I think it is.

I do not agree on making any characters black that are supposed to not be one. But Lysene culture mattered nothing in the plot of GoT, while Corlys is part of the well-known westerosi/valyrian culture.

25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That would be a very minor change, all things considered.

Not at all. Making a character black that is supposed to be not only white, but Valyrian too, and actually standing in the middle of the story is nowhere near a small change.

 

26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Why did Doran Martell marry Mellario of Norvos or Lord Denys Darklyn Merala of Myr? Even the Targaryens married foreigners four times - Tyanna of Pentos, Larra Rogare, and two times Kiera of Tyrosh. Five times if you count Daemon Blackfyre marrying Rohanne of Tyrosh.

It makes sense for House Targaryen to marry with foreign Valyrian nobility, after all. And Doran married for love, and these people are all from one of the free cities.

 

29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And if Aegon IV can have a black highborn paramour in Bellegere Otherys then certainly a Velaryon could marry a similar woman.

Bellegere was a lover of Aegon IV, not his wife. And Bellegere is said to having someine to lay with in every corner of the known world.

 

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That wouldn't even be particularly exceptional, I imagine, considering the status of the Velaryons as seafarers and merchant lords. They would have more contacts abroad than most other lords.

Even tho they're merchant lords, never happened anything even close to this. They always married with Westerosi nobility, as far as we know.

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31 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

He's simply a colorful guest at court, that's all.

He becomes a companion of Margaery's and Cersei decides to make him one of the men she accuses of committing adultery with the queen - and that's not seen as a weird scandal ... just as Xho being part of Margaery's entourage isn't. He may come from a different culture, but he is still nobility.

31 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Technically none of them should be black, since they're simply not. I can't understand how Salladhor's (an episodical character's) look/accuracy matters more than Corlys'.

But Salladhor Saan is more of a character than Corlys Velaryon ever was. Corlys is a historical figure who never showed up in a novel. We do have outlines of things he did and we have a historian giving him a couple of lines, but that's it.

And to be sure - GoT never so much as mentioned the Velaryons. They are unchartered territory, so to speak. I think they won't change their history of Targaryen cousins coming from Valyria, but they actually could do that. They will change and add a lot to turn George's outline into an actual TV show.

31 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Isn't it more manageable to believe that a Summer Islander married a Lysene (Lys is pretty close to the Summer Island compared to Westeros) than a Westerosi noble? I think it is.

To be sure, it is, but then - Salla simply isn't described as Lysene in the show, so this is just odd.

31 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I do not agree on making any characters black that are supposed to not be one. But Lysene culture mattered nothing in the plot of GoT, while Corlys is part of the well-known westerosi/valyrian culture.

No, he isn't, because GoT nor ASoIaF very much elaborates on 'Valyrian culture'. Sure, ASoIaF also establishes who the Velaryons are, but they are just extras in the books so far. HoD is going to have to establish the Velaryons as a noble house ... and how much their culture matters there remains to be seen.

From ASoIaF it is certainly possible that some Velaryon in the past could have married a Summer Islander. We only meet Monford and Aurane Waters, after all. Who is to say that 200+ years ago some ancestor of theirs didn't marry a black woman?

The important part of the Velaryon family is that they were close kin to the Targaryens and provided three brides for their princes. And that they were great seafarers. Their looks aren't *that* important.

31 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Not at all. Making a character black that is supposed to be not only white, but Valyrian too, and actually standing in the middle of the story is nowhere near a small change.

A big change would be if Corlys no longer did the things he does.

31 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

It makes sense for House Targaryen to marry with foreign Valyrian nobility, after all. And Doran married for love, and these people are all from one of the free cities.

Corlys' mother and father could also have married for love. But it could also have been an arranged marriage. We don't know for books or show.

Hell, now that I think of it, perhaps somebody can get George to give us the names of Corlys' parents if the show differs from the books there. That would be great.

31 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Bellegere was a lover of Aegon IV, not his wife. And Bellegere is said to having someine to lay with in every corner of the known world.

Aegon couldn't marry any of his mistresses because he was already married.

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@Lord Varys

We just can't agree on this one. 

This comes from me seeing Velaryons and their origin/accuracy as more important to the show than you do. It's understandable, but not acceptable for me. In the end, my opinion is just the same:

Characters that aren't supposed to be black should not be portrayed as one, and vice versa. Neither the opposite is acceptable, tho there's never been such a case, as far as I know, for some reason.

Good day to you, sir! 

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