Why do the Masters lack any kind of moral complexity?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

So for the super gritty, super complex story that is ASOIAF, I always wondered why the Masters have the behavior and personality of cartoon villains, with no redeemable traits, no outliers, no nothing, They're just evil, in a way that not even the Boltons are. So the question is why? Did GRRM's IQ drop by 50 while writing them or is there actually a purpose for them being so cartoonishly evil.

[SeanF]

Not all villains are complex.  Ramsay isn’t. Nor is Ser Gregor, nor are Vargo Hoat and the Bloody Mummers, who are the books’ equivalent of the Dirlewanger SS Brigade. The masters in the free cities or Qarth are more nuanced, I think.  In Slavers Bay, they’re people who have become dehumanised, through their inability to see 80-85% of the population as human beings.  When I  initially read the books, I thought of the masters as cartoonish.  Having read more widely, I’ve come to realise that they’re much truer to life than I would wish.

It’s an unfortunate fact that their enormities are mirrored in the cruelest slave-owning societies in real life.  In 18th century Haiti, the average life expectancy of an African slave was two years upon arrival;  a disobedient slave might be burned at the stake, flogged to death, or thrown into a furnace.  In Rome, Vedius Pollio liked to feed disobedient slaves to his conger eels (he claimed it improved their flavour).  The most revolting forms of theatrical cruelty would be carried out on slaves (and others) condemned to die in the arena.  The Atlantic and Arab slave trades claimed huge numbers of lives;  setting a slave ship alight, or throwing them overboard, in order to make an insurance claim, (see Gregson v Gilbert 1783), is really no different to anything going on in Slavers Bay.  Once you start reading about chattel slavery, (still a very profitable activity in this day and age) it’s easy just to despair of human nature.

The most unrealistic feature of Slavers Bay is the failure of slave soldiers to have turned on their masters, as often happened in real life.

[Nathan Stark]

The Green Grace isn't a cartoonish villian, but seemingly rather complex. Hizdar is a businessman and a rather charismatic politician in the books who may or may not have attempted assasinating Dany. Skahaz is a violent "reformed" Ghiscari who wants to remove all the old gaurd ruling families from power. Reznak is a slimy, unctous villian every bit as unknowable as Varys. I wouldn't call any of these characters cartoonish or poorly written. They are a lot more subtle and nuanced than you are giving them credit for.

[Darth Sidious]

6 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So for the super gritty, super complex story that is ASOIAF, I always wondered why the Masters have the behavior and personality of cartoon villains, with no redeemable traits, no outliers, no nothing, They're just evil, in a way that not even the Boltons are. So the question is why? Did GRRM's IQ drop by 50 while writing them or is there actually a purpose for them being so cartoonishly evil.

The slave masters are complex.  We just do not get to see that side of them.  I am sure the slave masters love their children.  They do nice things for the others in their social class.  But just because they do nice things to people they like and care about does not mean they are not evil.  They are slavers.  Slavery is evil.  Being complex does not make one grey.  It just makes them more complex.  A simpleton like Jinglebells is not complex but neither is he evil.  Jaime Lannister is complex but that does not move him from black to grey.  He is an evil man for sure.  

[broken one]

7 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So for the super gritty, super complex story that is ASOIAF, I always wondered why the Masters have the behavior and personality of cartoon villains, with no redeemable traits, no outliers, no nothing, They're just evil, in a way that not even the Boltons are. So the question is why? Did GRRM's IQ drop by 50 while writing them or is there actually a purpose for them being so cartoonishly evil.

It is for us, so we can read about nailing them to poles, feel good and keep loving dany  it worked for me!

[The Grey Wolf]

Because they are not Westerosi.

[Lord Lannister]

Their general evilness elevates Dany's morality. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

28 minutes ago, broken one said:

It is for us, so we can read about nailing them to poles, feel good and keep loving dany  it worked for me!

Yeah that's the only explanation I can find, making us root harder for Dany, and making Dany's view of the world more black and white before GRRM pulls the gotcha at us in the form of Aegon and the Second Dance of Dragons.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

15 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Their general evilness elevates Dany's morality. 

And?

[Rose of Red Lake]

I agree with other posters; they do show their complexity, but that stuff is in-between the lines.

The fact that Barristan and Quentyn are interacting with Dany but we never see them interacting in real time suggests intentional POV trap, i.e. reader manipulation.

I also wonder if there is some kind of ideological reason - like the author suggesting that authoritarianism on the left (class genocide) can circle back around to authoritarianism on the right (fascism).

[SeanF]

8 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Yeah that's the only explanation I can find, making us root harder for Dany, and making Dany's view of the world more black and white before GRRM pulls the gotcha at us in the form of Aegon and the Second Dance of Dragons.

But, would we argue that the Ramsay, Ser Gregor, the Bloody Mummers et al are just included to make their opponents look better?

I suppose one can could argue that the sheer repulsiveness of Ramsay Bolton is intended to weight the scales in favour of Jon's decision to march on Winterfell - but I actually think Jon is in the right on that one.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

But, would we argue that the Ramsay, Ser Gregor, the Bloody Mummers et al are just included to make their opponents look better?

Well first off the Bloody Mummers are no one's main antagonists, and I think the point is just how low men can fall in war.

Second off, Gregor is arguably the main antagonist of Dorne, which is a completely sane, and not all all homicidally driven place. It's actually a bit similar if you think about it. Fighting evil with more evil.

As for Ramsay, I honestly don't know, Jon isn't going in the same Fire and Blood direction as Dany is, so I really don't know.

[SeanF]

Just now, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Well first off the Bloody Mummers are no one's main antagonists, and I think the point is just how low men can fall in war.

Second off, Gregor is arguably the main antagonist of Dorne, which is a completely sane, and not all all homicidally driven place. It's actually a bit similar if you think about it. Fighting evil with more evil.

As for Ramsay, I honestly don't know, Jon isn't going in the same Fire and Blood direction as Dany is, so I really don't know.

Jon is pretty ruthless in ADWD, and probably more so in TWOW.  I’d expect his enemies to receive very short shrift.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

Jon is pretty ruthless in ADWD, and probably more so in TWOW.  I’d expect his enemies to receive very short shrift.

I'm not talking about ruthlessness, more about uncompromising shock and awe, which will probably become a staple of Dany, while it's doubtful it will become for Jon, with the exception of the Boltons, and there in lies the problem. Why with the Boltons?

[SeanF]

2 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I'm not talking about ruthlessness, more about uncompromising shock and awe, which will probably become a staple of Dany, while it's doubtful it will become for Jon, with the exception of the Boltons, and there in lies the problem. Why with the Boltons?

They’ve been set up as a group of antagonists, like the Freys, who deserve absolutely no mercy.  I don’t think this is the author tricking us, before revealing a kinder side to the Freys and Boltons, or presenting arguments on their behalf.  

There’s always a risk that the BWB and Northmen go too far, perhaps, stringing up people like Fat Walda, Roslin Frey, Jeyne Westerling, along with the adult males, but I don’t think readers are expected to think that Walker, Roose or Ramsay deserve mercy and forgiveness.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

They’ve been set up as a group of antagonists, like the Freys, who deserve absolutely no mercy.  I don’t think this is the author tricking us, before revealing a kinder side to the Freys and Boltons, or presenting arguments on their behalf.  

There’s always a risk that the BWB and Northmen go too far, perhaps, stringing up people like Fat Walda, Roslin Frey, Jeyne Westerling, along with the adult males, but I don’t think readers are expected to think that Walker, Roose or Ramsay deserve mercy and forgiveness.

Fair enough, maybe I'm reading too much into it

[Lord Lannister]

49 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

And?

And that's the point. There's nothing deeper.

[Only 89 selfies today]

The things we consider as the markers of morality (compassion and fairness) must necessarily be lacking in a slave owner.  Particularly the kind who enjoys watching slaves fight for entertainment.  I am not saying they don't love their momma.  They do.  But they are slavers 24/7.  So having good manners and being polite to mom does not wash out that they are slavers. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

47 minutes ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

The things we consider as the markers of morality (compassion and fairness) must necessarily be lacking in a slave owner.  Particularly the kind who enjoys watching slaves fight for entertainment.  I am not saying they don't love their momma.  They do.  But they are slavers 24/7.  So having good manners and being polite to mom does not wash out that they are slavers. 

Yeah here's the thing though, real life slavery was almost never as brutal as the one in ASOIAF. Take the fighting pits for example, only a very small fraction of gladiatorial combats resulted in death as gladiators were incredibly valuable property, with most deaths being accidental, while in ASOIAF, it's an all round kill fest. So the ASOIAF slavers are cartoonish evil even as slavers are concerned.

[SeanF]

42 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Yeah here's the thing though, real life slavery was almost never as brutal as the one in ASOIAF. Take the fighting pits for example, only a very small fraction of gladiatorial combats resulted in death as gladiators were incredibly valuable property, with most deaths being accidental, while in ASOIAF, it's an all round kill fest. So the ASOIAF slavers are cartoonish evil even as slavers are concerned.

The West Indian sugar colonies and the Abbasid Caliphate say "hello."