Cyberpunk 2077 [split from video games]

[Werthead]

4 hours ago, sifth said:

Man, if not for bikes and the menu screen, I would never have seen my character. The whole thing just seems strange to me. Every other game that's given me a chance to create my characters, has also let me see them; Mass Effect, Fallout, Dragon Age, heck even Dark Souls. The moment they choose to commit fully to First Person, they really should have just gotten rid of character creation as well, because there just wasn't any point to it. Should I really care what my character looks like, when 90% of the time all I'm going to be seeing are his/her arms and nails?

I have a strong suspicion they they're considering adding a 3rd person mode later on, but they decided it was too much work in the first instance (they had a ton of problems with Geralt's animations  in Witcher 2 and 3 and things like walking on tight ledges in 3rd person, and having way more customisability in your character was going to make that more complex) and punted it off to be worked on post-release.

They may have also looked at the surprising popularity of first-person mode in GTA5 and how many people played the game through in first-person and decided to roll with it.

[Ran]

This is one of the better fan-made anime intros I've seen on the Internet:

 

[C.T. Phipps]

There's quite a few missions with choice in this game, "Pisces" being a really good one. I also note that gameplay choice is also really good.

One mission had me going after a captured Aldecado and hilariously I completely avoided the massive fortress full of goons and got him out without firing a shot, just because I did some extra exploring.

It felt very Deus Ex.

[sifth]

2 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

There's quite a few missions with choice in this game, "Pisces" being a really good one. I also note that gameplay choice is also really good.

One mission had me going after a captured Aldecado and hilariously I completely avoided the massive fortress full of goons and got him out without firing a shot, just because I did some extra exploring.

It felt very Deus Ex.

I'd argue that the only ones that have any major choices in the main story are The Pickup and your choice to side with or against the member of Net Watch, at the end of I Walk the Line. Even those choices only have minor effects on the over all narrative though. It's not like the Witcher 3, where screwing up on one of these quests, could potentially get one of Garalt's friends killed, in the later portions of the game. This is not counting the endings, which are all different depending on your choice though.

[Fez]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

I'd argue that the only one that have any major choices in the main story are The Pickup and your choice to side with or against the member of Net Watch, at the end of I Walk the Line. Even those choices only have minor effects on the over all narrative though. It's not like the Witcher 3, where screwing up on one these quests, could potentially get one of Garalt's friends killed, in the later portions of the game. This is not counting the endings, which are all different depending on your choice though.

Agreed. There's plenty of gameplay choices throughout, but there are not many narrative choices. There's those two missions (and one path through The Pickup lets you complete a much later mission without any fighting, which is cool), deciding whether or not to pursue a romance, and the ending path. But there's not too much beyond that. There a few small things here and there, mostly at the end of jobs and gigs, which will change some text messages/calls you get, but that's about it. The only other big exception I can think of is Judy's whole optional quest chain, which does have choices throughout that will change how she thinks of you. There's nothing like 'Reason of State' from The Witcher 3. Which I think does probably hurt the replayability of CP2077.

 

Although, I have started a new game. I don't know if I'll get all the way through anytime soon. It's now something to play on the side, to experiment with a different build. Try to actually get OP, rather than the busted build that I limped through Hard on before. I started Corpo this time, instead of Street Kid. And I realized the Corpo lifepath really does make it seem like you're about to start a different game than the one you actually do. And I get why someone on release day, before it was known how tiny the lifepaths were, would be disappointed. Street Kid eases really naturally into Act I. Corpo doesn't, at all; IMO.

[sifth]

13 minutes ago, Fez said:

Although, I have started a new game. I don't know if I'll get all the way through anytime soon. It's now something to play on the side, to experiment with a different build. Try to actually get OP, rather than the busted build that I limped through Hard on before. I started Corpo this time, instead of Street Kid. And I realized the Corpo lifepath really does make it seem like you're about to start a different game than the one you actually do. And I get why someone on release day, before it was known how tiny the lifepaths were, would be disappointed. Street Kid eases really naturally into Act I. Corpo doesn't, at all; IMO.

To be honest, I played the game as a Nomad and felt everyone treated me as if I were a street kid, regardless. From what I've seen online, I think it's much the same for those playing as a Corpo. Even when I was dealing with other Nomads, in the later parts of the game, I was still treated as an outside, because I was part of a different tribe.

On a side note, I agree with you 100% that Reasons of State was an amazing side quest, though the Witcher 3 had many of those. My personal favorite was The Cat and the Wolf Play, because it really questions your views on morality and no two people I know who have played that quest have ever viewed it the same way. I've had debates with some of my friends for hours on what was the right call.

[Ran]

CDPR has announced that the first free DLC is due in "early 2021", details to come. Won't be surprised if it shows up in conjunction with the big January or February patches they're planning.

[Slurktan]

On 12/28/2020 at 10:21 PM, Fez said:

Agreed. There's plenty of gameplay choices throughout, but there are not many narrative choices. There's those two missions (and one path through The Pickup lets you complete a much later mission without any fighting, which is cool), deciding whether or not to pursue a romance, and the ending path. But there's not too much beyond that. There a few small things here and there, mostly at the end of jobs and gigs, which will change some text messages/calls you get, but that's about it. The only other big exception I can think of is Judy's whole optional quest chain, which does have choices throughout that will change how she thinks of you. There's nothing like 'Reason of State' from The Witcher 3. Which I think does probably hurt the replayability of CP2077.

 

Although, I have started a new game. I don't know if I'll get all the way through anytime soon. It's now something to play on the side, to experiment with a different build. Try to actually get OP, rather than the busted build that I limped through Hard on before. I started Corpo this time, instead of Street Kid. And I realized the Corpo lifepath really does make it seem like you're about to start a different game than the one you actually do. And I get why someone on release day, before it was known how tiny the lifepaths were, would be disappointed. Street Kid eases really naturally into Act I. Corpo doesn't, at all; IMO.

It's exactly the same as a Telltale game. It's the illusion of choice but no actual choice.  Sadly the lifepaths are legitimately a worthless choice other than the first twenty minutes unless you care about a line here or there that does nothing but have a line of flavour.  Try the nomad path and the Panam quests for example and you will see how useless the yellow choice "lifepath" options are.

[Werthead]

Completed my rarest achievement - finishing off all the NCPD crimes and all side-gigs in the Badlands, which only 1.8% of people have achieved. In fact, the achievements for 100%ing each district are all really low at the moment.

Not entirely sure why, it's time-consuming to knock out all the side-quests in each district but not insanely so. I believe the side-gigs also includes buying all the optional vehicles, which is more of a pain because of the expense.

Also, the final street fight is a major major pain.

Spoiler

I'm now just shy of Level 50, I have 20 in Body, I have massive bonuses for unarmed combat and I still can't beat the last guy. It's aggravating.

 

[Ran]

The boxing is very tough, I found, and a lot of people opt to cheat by dropping grenades just before they start the fight, or dropping a weapon beforehand and picking it up during the fight.

But it can be done legit. Basically just focus on luring out the strong charge attack, dodge once (or sometimes twice, the ring is very tight and hit radius is wide), then do a strong attack or two or even three if he seems stun-locked. Then  rinse-and-repeat. The biggest danger is sometimes he'll do a weak, wide forward swing, which usually gives you an opening right after... but I found that after a certain HP, he's liable to immediately follow up with a kick. Better to back away from anything that isn't the charge attack, wait for the charge, and punch him then.

 

[sifth]

On 12/30/2020 at 12:49 AM, Slurktan said:

It's exactly the same as a Telltale game. It's the illusion of choice but no actual choice.  Sadly the lifepaths are legitimately a worthless choice other than the first twenty minutes unless you care about a line here or there that does nothing but have a line of flavour.  Try the nomad path and the Panam quests for example and you will see how useless the yellow choice "lifepath" options are.

Yea the Life Choices are a joke. Regardless of which you pick, most NPC's still treat you like a street kid or just crap in general. "I'm not going to trust you, you Nomad Scum, you Corpo Sellout, you Street Rat". I mean heck, I played as a Nomad and even I was treated like an outsider, by my fellow Nomads, the whole thing is just smoke and mirrors to hide the fact that most people are getting the exact same experience, aside from the opening 20 minutes of the game. 

The illusion of choice sadly goes even deeper than this though, when you take into account things like

 

siding with Evelyn over Dex and how it's meaningless and goes nowhere. Now the ideal game would make this a rather big choice and have choosing Evelyn over Dex, make her an ally for future story points, perhaps give you side quests and other future story beats that you would be locked out of if you side with Dex and T-Bug. This would in turn make Dex and T-Bug antagonists that you have to face in future story paths or side quests. This would encourage replay ability for players, who would be interested in seeing what story beats they would get if they side with Dex and T-Bug, over Evelyn and Judy, the next time around.

Dragon Age Inquisition did something like this, when you have to make a choice to side with either The Mages or The Templars. Choosing one over the other takes you down a completely different story path and locks you out of certain side quests. Dragon Age Origins also does life paths that put this games to shame; you're locked out of certain endings and characters trust, based on where you start the game.

[Ran]

I mean, CDPR could easily have gated content already in game by making random early decisions stick you on some path.

But they made the design decision of having 90-95% of the content be available to players at all times rather than making people replay.

IMO, as someone who rolled back to midgame to unlock a particular ending I want to try, and to get some missions I missed early on, I'm okay with this. I plan a full run with a female V to try a different build and maybe approach things such that I get to the end with a much-lower-levelled character, but having to do three, four, or five fresh starts to experience everything is... a decidedly painful idea.

[Mexal]

Skippy is the best.

[Ran]

3 minutes ago, Mexal said:

Skippy is the best.

Bum bum be-dum bum bum be-dum...

[sifth]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

I mean, CDPR could easily have gated content already in game by making random early decisions stick you on some path.

But they made the design decision of having 90-95% of the content be available to players at all times rather than making people replay.

IMO, as someone who rolled back to midgame to unlock a particular ending I want to try, and to get some missions I missed early on, I'm okay with this. I plan a full run with a female V to try a different build and maybe approach things such that I get to the end with a much-lower-levelled character, but having to do three, four, or five fresh starts to experience everything is... a decidedly painful idea.

I just doubt I'll ever touch this game again, unless it gets a FF:XIV level facelift, which I doubt it will. The lack of third person really didn't sit well with me; there just doesn't seem to be any point to having character creation in a game that doesn't let you see the character you spent all your time making. You said in an earlier post that in made your V feel more unique, but it had the opposite effect for me. Because I couldn't see the V that I spent over an hour making, it made her feel no different than any other person I found on youtube playing the game. When you play Mass Effect and spend time created your Sheppard and then go to Youtube and find that the person who posted the videos Shepard looks nothing like your own, it really helps to make your character feel special, IMO.

The fact that no decision in this game seems to really matter is also a big issue I have. If I screwed up in Mass Effect, I could easily get one of Shepard's friends killed; possibly an entire race killed in the third game. If they died in one of the earlier games, there were gone for the rest of the trilogy. This game however doesn't give me any such features. At best I might be able to save someone in a side quest, who I'll never see again.

[Fez]

2 hours ago, sifth said:

I just doubt I'll ever touch this game again, unless it gets a FF:XIV level facelift, which I doubt it will. The lack of third person really didn't sit well with me; there just doesn't seem to be any point to having character creation in a game that doesn't let you see the character you spent all your time making. You said in an earlier post that in made your V feel more unique, but it had the opposite effect for me. Because I couldn't see the V that I spent over an hour making, it made her feel no different than any other person I found on youtube playing the game. When you play Mass Effect and spend time created your Sheppard and then go to Youtube and find that the person who posted the videos Shepard looks nothing like your own, it really helps to make your character feel special, IMO.

The fact that no decision in this game seems to really matter is also a big issue I have. If I screwed up in Mass Effect, I could easily get one of Shepard's friends killed; possibly an entire race killed in the third game. If they died in one of the earlier games, there were gone for the rest of the trilogy. This game however doesn't give me any such features. At best I might be able to save someone in a side quest, who I'll never see again.

I agree with nearly all of this. However, the key difference for me is that, despite the lack of third person view, I still really connected to V and her story; which I think is a testament to Cherami Leigh's performance. And so I already started replay, partly to try out some other gameplay facets and partly to experience that story again. There aren't many important choices in it (and the few that there are, I'll probably do exactly the same again), but as an on-the-rails experience I think it's really good. 

[Ran]

2 hours ago, sifth said:

The fact that no decision in this game seems to really matter is also a big issue I have.

"No decision" is hyperbole.

 

Spoiler

If you don't do much with Panam in the early game such that you don't get their help, she basically is never back in the Aldecaldos, remains a merc needing help from fixers, and who knows what becomes of Saul and his nomad family. And she really hates your guts if you choose to give V's body to Johnny after Saul died to help get you sorted, if you did ask for her help.

And the consequences of the endings are such that Arasaka's fortunes rise and fall based on what you choose. The Arasaka endings bring back the "Emperor", the others lead to Hanako's death, Takemura's impending death or suicide, and Arasaka's market cap massively damaged while other corporations/groups swarmed in to the gaps you made. Those are certainly global-scale consequences, consequences that depend not just on the choice of what route you take to Arasaka Tower, but also whether you even bothered to establish relationships with the Aldecaldos or Rogue.

 

2 hours ago, sifth said:

If I screwed up in Mass Effect, I could easily get one of Shepard's friends killed; possibly an entire race killed in the third game.

Don't you think that the fact that they made bigger things happen towards the end of the series is suggestive that it's not a thing you can normally do when you're just presenting a new setting and story to people? I was reading over the decisions you make in ME1 and they don't seem particularly amazing -- here's how a Mass Effect wiki describes one of the choices presented as one of the major ones of that game:

Quote

He also needs to ask Shepard for a huge favor, he needs one of Shepard’s squad for the assault. Both Ashley and Kaidan volunteer. Send whomever you wish with Kirrahe, however be warned that whichever one you send will be unavailable as a squadmate for the rest of Virmire. Personal preference or squad balance, keep whichever in mind when choosing.

That doesn't sound like a particularly important choice, the way they put it.... and it's too early to tell right now what impact your decisions in CP2077 will have in any follow-up content or games.

2 hours ago, sifth said:

If they died in one of the earlier games, there were gone for the rest of the trilogy. This game however doesn't give me any such features. At best I might be able to save someone in a side quest, who I'll never see again.

Well, a decision you make in this game means in all likelihood two of three significant NPCs is probably dead going forward which presumably would be part of what would be incorporated into any post-game DLC or outright sequels. 

 

[Jace, Extat]

8 minutes ago, Ran said:

"No decision" is hyperbole.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

If you don't do much with Panam in the early game such that you don't get their help, she basically is never back in the Aldecaldos, remains a merc needing help from fixers, and who knows what becomes of Saul and his nomad family. And she really hates your guts if you choose to give V's body to Johnny after Saul died to help get you sorted, if you did ask for her help.

And the consequences of the endings are such that Arasaka's fortunes rise and fall based on what you choose. The Arasaka endings bring back the "Emperor", the others lead to Hanako's death, Takemura's impending death or suicide, and Arasaka's market cap massively damaged while other corporations/groups swarmed in to the gaps you made. Those are certainly global-scale consequences, consequences that depend not just on the choice of what route you take to Arasaka Tower, but also whether you even bothered to establish relationships with the Aldecaldos or Rogue.

 

Don't you think that the fact that they made bigger things happen towards the end of the series is suggestive that it's not a thing you can normally do when you're just presenting a new setting and story to people? I was reading over the decisions you make in ME1 and they don't seem particularly amazing -- here's how a Mass Effect wiki describes one of the choices presented as one of the major ones of that game:

That doesn't sound like a particularly important choice, the way they put it.... and it's too early to tell right now what impact your decisions in CP2077 will have in any follow-up content or games.

 

That decision leads to either Alenko or Williams' death. It also happens about twenty seconds before Rex takes serious personal issue with Shepard's decision making and potentially gets into a gunfight with you.

Wikipedia summarizes. 

[Werthead]

100%ed Heywood and City Centre. Might as well do all of the districts in the game now, although I'm puzzled why Pacifica is showing as all missions completed but not 100% done.

Has anyone else ridden the roller coaster in Pacifica? It's quite amusing.

I completed the final boxing fight by jacking up on consumable bonuses and then just using max-strength blows. They re-instate the stun lock with each blow so he can't push you away and I got the skill that does 30% extra damage. That made the fight much more straightforward. Then I gratefully got rid of my gorilla arms and reinstated my Iron Man arm-mounted missile launcher, which is very nice.

I rounded off a few more missions (finally met Brendan the Vending Machine, and the zen master) and I think I've done everything apart from the last few NCPD scanner hustles and the few last vehicles. Having to buy all the vehicles is pure bullshit, I got this van which was dirt cheap but it has a turning circle so huge it can't actually drive along the roads properly and is only marginally faster than me running down the streets (which I actually started doing in preference, to grind Athletics like it was Oblivion all over again). I did get the Akira bike a while back though which was really cool.

Spoiler

One thing I'm concerned about is my rep with Johnny is only 60, having done all of his stuff with Rogue and Kerry. I've seen you can raise it as far as 90, but 70 is needed to open up all the ending options. I have no idea how to get it up that last 10. I though the roller coaster would do it but nope.

1 hour ago, Ran said:

"No decision" is hyperbole.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

If you don't do much with Panam in the early game such that you don't get their help, she basically is never back in the Aldecaldos, remains a merc needing help from fixers, and who knows what becomes of Saul and his nomad family. And she really hates your guts if you choose to give V's body to Johnny after Saul died to help get you sorted, if you did ask for her help.

And the consequences of the endings are such that Arasaka's fortunes rise and fall based on what you choose. The Arasaka endings bring back the "Emperor", the others lead to Hanako's death, Takemura's impending death or suicide, and Arasaka's market cap massively damaged while other corporations/groups swarmed in to the gaps you made. Those are certainly global-scale consequences, consequences that depend not just on the choice of what route you take to Arasaka Tower, but also whether you even bothered to establish relationships with the Aldecaldos or Rogue.

 

Don't you think that the fact that they made bigger things happen towards the end of the series is suggestive that it's not a thing you can normally do when you're just presenting a new setting and story to people? I was reading over the decisions you make in ME1 and they don't seem particularly amazing -- here's how a Mass Effect wiki describes one of the choices presented as one of the major ones of that game:

That doesn't sound like a particularly important choice, the way they put it.... and it's too early to tell right now what impact your decisions in CP2077 will have in any follow-up content or games.

Well, a decision you make in this game means in all likelihood two of three significant NPCs is probably dead going forward which presumably would be part of what would be incorporated into any post-game DLC or outright sequels. 

 

The Mass Effect choices are more major than that. Kaiden and Williams are very different characters with different roles later in the trilogy (although they never come back as full-time companion characters, they are both romance options and they both have associated quests in ME3). The fate of Wrex is much bigger as it ties into how the Krogan storyline unfolds in the rest of the game, which can lead to the entire species being wiped out.

Incidentally I'd recommend trying out the Mass Effect trilogy for the story (iffy ending aside) and how malleable the story is to your choices, it's quite impressive. And even all three games combined are considerably shorter than Cyberpunk 2077.

Also, based on CDPR's previous modus operandi, it's not likely that decisions made in this game will be carried forward into sequels. Choices in The Witcher 1 into The Witcher 2 into The Witcher 3 were relatively minor, coming down to whether 3-4 characters show up again or not. CP77 is also not the first game in a trilogy, as Mass Effect very much was.

[Fez]

Ha. Well, I finally encountered my first gamebreaking bug. At the end of The Pickup, going the Militech route, Jackie refuses to leave the final room of the All Foods. And if I exit it to trigger the next bit of the mission, I can't go back inside either. So I can't do the final task, of talking to him. Very annoying.