Why couldn't Doran send Quentyn with a bigger entourage?

[Arthur Peres]

17 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tywin would not even tell Tyrion about it. While it was carried out by thousands, we have no idea who was in the know.

 

Every Frey Bolton and Karstark soldier that took part on that knew that they were butchering the Northems asleep under sacred guess right, the information just didn't got out somehow.

20 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

It was? How many people knew that Joffrey was about to be executed?

 

Not executed, murdered. That is a diference...

But at the very least, Margeary, Olenna and Littlefinger, knew about the murder, Loras and Garlan may or may not know, and Dontos and Oswell were also involved in the conspiracy as they are tasked with taking Sansa out of the city, with Lothor playing a small part in that.

So yeah, there where more people involved in that than Quentyn' bodyguards...

29 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

He sends his son, his envoy on a secret mission. Robb sends his own mother with only a few more men during a war to negotiate on his behalf.

This seems to be the norm in Westeros. When Cat goes on a secret mission she only travels with Rodrik. Ned does not make his wife take more men when he sends her home, nor does he arrange a ship for her. Yet Ned is convinced of the danger they are in.

Those are good points, I have to give it to you,

Still, Catelyn was a mature woman, with some knowloge, for comparison Catelyn refused to send Robb and Theon to Kingslanding to send mensage to Ned. She wisely thought of them not suited for the task at hand, Doran fails at this.

“I’ll go,” Robb said.

“No,” she told him. “Your place is here. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell.” She looked at Ser Rodrik with his great white whiskers, at Maester Luwin in his grey robes, at young Greyjoy, lean and dark and impetuous. Who to send? Who would be believed? Then she knew. Catelyn struggled to push back the blankets, her bandaged fingers as stiff and unyielding as stone. She climbed out of bed. “I must go myself.”

[Bernie Mac]

12 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

Every Frey Bolton and Karstark soldier that took part on that knew that they were butchering the Northems asleep under sacred guess right, the information just didn't got out somehow.

We don't know when they were informed though. The vast majority may have been in the dark until the order came in. Simply being ordered not to drink and stay prepared does not mean they were informed of the Red Wedding.

12 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

Not executed, murdered. That is a diference...

If you are going to be pedantic, at least spell the difference properly. Anyhow https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/execute

'To execute someone means to kill them as a punishment for a serious crime.'

Joffrey was executed by the Tyrells for what they viewed as a serious crime. They did not fancy him committing those same crimes on Margaery, thus they executed him.

12 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

But at the very least, Margeary, Olenna and Littlefinger, knew about the murder,

When is it confirmed that Margaery knew about the murder?

12 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

Loras and Garlan may or may not know, and Dontos and Oswell were also involved in the conspiracy as they are tasked with taking Sansa out of the city, with Lothor playing a small part in that.

We don't know that Dontos knew about the murder, just that he knew that Sansa would be escaping that night.

12 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

So yeah, there where more people involved in that than Quentyn' bodyguards...

Wait what? How is that comparable? Why are you not naming Doran, Hotah, Yrwonwood and others who would have known about Quentyn's plot?

You need to be a little less bad faith in your points. I guarantee more people are confirmed to know about Quentyn's plot than the Joffrey's execution.

 

[CamiloRP]

Still don't see why Doran wouldn't trust on his wife or the Sealord, when he trusted in him for the marriage pact.

[TheLastWolf]

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

Still don't see why Doran wouldn't trust on his wife or the Sealord, when he trusted in him for the marriage pact.

Things change with time. Especially with love marriages that are between two polar opposite people who did it at a stupid period called teenage. 

[frenin]

39 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Things change with time. Especially with love marriages that are between two polar opposite people who did it at a stupid period called teenage. 

The marriage pact between Viserys and Arianne.

Regardless things changing with time does not apply to Q, one would think that Mellario wants her son to get to slavers bay in one piece and that at his return Illyn Payne would not be expecting him to execute him for treason.

[Arthur Peres]

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Joffrey was executed by the Tyrells for what they viewed as a serious crime. They did not fancy him committing those same crimes on Margaery, thus they executed him.

 

They did not have the authority to execute Joffrey, thefore they murdered him. Tyrion would be executed, Joffrey was not. Words has meanings, just telling you to use the right one.

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

When is it confirmed that Margaery knew about the murder?

 

I though it was obvius... she is present when Olenna talks with Sansa and decides to kill Joffrey, Margeary was drinking from the same cup, and the whole point of the plot for the Tyrells is to protect her. If she went into it blind they took a giant risk of killing her in the process.

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

We don't know that Dontos knew about the murder, just that he knew that Sansa would be escaping that night.

 

He still got involved.

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

You need to be a little less bad faith in your points. I guarantee more people are confirmed to know about Quentyn's plot than the Joffrey's execution.

 

You always question people good faith... At this point I don't really care about what you think of me... you free to ignore me if you want.

[Angel Eyes]

On 12/13/2020 at 1:17 PM, Bernie Mac said:

And? Doran knew it would be a dangerous mission. He simply did not want to endanger the whole of Dorne. Which is what would happen if the mission was discovered.

He'd not left Dorne to give battle to her, but to honour the agreement made by Darry and Oberyn.

 

Which is not doable under a secret mission. Oberyn was sent as an ambassador, Quentyn was not. They are comparable. One was supposed to look official, the other not.

Though sending the sons of the two most powerful Men in Dorne is a decent offering.

And yet Dorne managed to keep themselves independent of the Iron Throne for more than 150 years, even when Daeron I brought the strength of Westeros against Dorne.

No he wasn't there give battle to her, but he didn't give Quentyn enough that Daenerys would be persuaded to honor the agreement between Darry and Oberyn. For his mission to succeed and get her to honor the agreement, he needed to show that he was a prince. Since his personality isn't that exciting, he has to compensate with image.

That secrecy was already compromised by how they left Westeros. Even Arianne says that she would have left via a larger port where they would be less recognized.

And one of those was KIA before we met Quentyn; one of five and it cost significent dynastic weight.

[Bernie Mac]

3 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

They did not have the authority to execute Joffrey, thefore they murdered him.

Again, you are being pedantic over the original meaning of a word. It no longer is limited to  that original meaning in the English language.

Executing someone can mean killing someone for an act that have committed. How I used the word is perfectly fine in the modern world, most people understood what was said.

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/executed

• 6. To put to death, especially by carrying out a lawful sentence.

Note the word 'especially' That means it is not limited to just lawful executions.

 

 

3 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

Tyrion would be executed, Joffrey was not. Words has meanings, just telling you to use the right one.

Words do have meaning. They also evolve over time, as more people use them some words have greater scope than they originally did.

Out of interest, who are you to tell me what language I should and should not use?

3 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

I though it was obvius...

Thinking something is obvious does not make it true though, does it?

List all the people who the book confirms were in on the plot.

And for god’s sake, if you are going to be a pedantic dick over the use of the word 'execution' at least do a spell check first. It undermines your pedantry when there are so many spelling mistakes and grammatical errors in your own posts.

3 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

You always question people good faith... At this point I don't really care about what you think of me... you free to ignore me if you want.

But you were bad faith. Why did you not include Doran, Yronwood, Hotah etc. in the people who knew about the Quentyn plot?

[Bernie Mac]

54 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

And yet Dorne managed to keep themselves independent of the Iron Throne for more than 150 years, even when Daeron I brought the strength of Westeros against Dorne.

A lot can change in 150 years. The United Kingdom was the most powerful empire in the world 150 years ago, today we are an appendage of either Europe or the US in many global matters.

What Dorne could do 150 years ago may not be what Dorne could do today. Doran, the ruler of Dorne, clearly thinks that it would be disastrous to go to war with the Iron Throne.

Out of interest, when reading the history books of Ice and Fire did you get the impression that Dorne was a good place to live when they were at war with Westeros?

Doran not wanting to go to war does not mean he is saying he could not repeat the independence of his ancestors, but that it would simply not be worth the sacrifice to the people of Dorne. He also may suspect that almost two centuries of being Westerosi citizens would see some of his people prefer being ruled by the Iron Throne and peace than ruled by the Martells and at war.

54 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

No he wasn't there give battle to her, but he didn't give Quentyn enough that Daenerys would be persuaded to honor the agreement between Darry and Oberyn. For his mission to succeed and get her to honor the agreement, he needed to show that he was a prince. Since his personality isn't that exciting, he has to compensate with image.

Daenarys knows he is a prince. She respects him, even pities him a little.

What do you suggest Doran could have given his son that would have changed her mind?

54 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

That secrecy was already compromised by how they left Westeros.

Not to the Iron Throne it was not.  That is who Doran is worried about.

54 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

And one of those was KIA before we met Quentyn; one of five and it cost significent dynastic weight.

Certainly. That was the importance of the mission.

[Arthur Peres]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Again, you are being pedantic over the original meaning of a word. It no longer is limited to  that original meaning in the English language.

 

Learned from the best... 

 

8 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

'To execute someone means to kill them as a punishment for a serious crime.'

 

Sure... if you have the authorit for that... No matter what I see i cannot execute somebody, but I can kill it in self defense. Executions are carried by authorities, even evil ones. Eddard Stark was executed, Joffrey Baratheon was murdered.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Thinking something is obvious does not make it true though, does it?

 

So do you think that she was ignorant of the whole plot?

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

And for god’s sake, if you are going to be a pedantic dick over the use of the word 'execution' at least do a spell check first

nah, I'm good, english is not my first language, and if you understand it and it still bothers you, then I happy as it is.

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

8 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Still don't see why Doran wouldn't trust on his wife or the Sealord, when he trusted in him for the marriage pact.

He lives with pain all of the time.  It's not hard to believe if his mind is not as sharp as it used to be.  Obsessing over getting even doesn't improve his emotional health.  Then he has to reign in his blood thirsting relatives to keep them from doing something dumb. 

[CamiloRP]

1 hour ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

He lives with pain all of the time.  It's not hard to believe if his mind is not as sharp as it used to be.  Obsessing over getting even doesn't improve his emotional health.  Then he has to reign in his blood thirsting relatives to keep them from doing something dumb. 

That's one of the explanations I offered: he's not a good player. I don't buy that explanation.

[Bernie Mac]

13 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Sure... if you have the authorit for that... No matter what I see i cannot execute somebody, but I can kill it in self defense. Executions are carried by authorities, even evil ones. Eddard Stark was executed, Joffrey Baratheon was murdered.

Or executed. Joffrey committed crimes that the ruler of the Riverlands and members of House Tyrell, the rulers of the Reach, did not like. They had him executed for crimes he had done and what they feared he would do.

 

13 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

So do you think that she was ignorant of the whole plot?

Who is she? You listed a great many people who were in the know of the details to execute Joffrey. I pointed out that we don't know if all those people knew.

If you think there is evidence supporting your case then please use it. This is pretty simple. Why this exchange between the two of us is taking multiple posts is beyond me. 

13 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

nah, I'm good, english is not my first language, and if you understand it and it still bothers you, then I happy as it is.

?

 

 

[BlackLightning]

I understand why Doran couldn't send Quentyn off with a bigger, bolder entourage. Although he could've told Quentyn to go to Norvos or Tyrosh first to beef up his retinue before telling him to go to Meereen, the entourage is not the problem.

Where Doran went wrong is that he shouldn't have sent Quentyn at all. He should've sent Oberyn or even Arianne to Daenerys and Quentyn to King's Landing.

[Arthur Peres]

41 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Where Doran went wrong is that he shouldn't have sent Quentyn at all. He should've sent Oberyn or even Arianne to Daenerys and Quentyn to King's Landing.

out of curiosity, Why do you think Arianne would make a better envoy ? 

[BlackLightning]

13 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

out of curiosity, Why do you think Arianne would make a better envoy ? 

Well, for starters, she has the sense not to try to take one of Daenerys' dragons. Arianne is bold but not that bold.

Two, Arianne can be a lot more incognito than Quentyn simply because she is a woman and no one expects a woman to travel thousands of miles into slavery territory to make war plans with another girl.

Three, Arianne can relate to Daenerys a lot more both as a woman and as a heiress to a kingdom. Arianne can win Daenerys over a lot easier than Quentyn for that reason. And Daenerys no longer has the added task of looking at her envoy and trying to find a worthy husband and king in him. The alliance is one of equals.

Fourthly, Arianne's offer of alliance is not automatically/immediately coming with a marriage proposal. Dany is already married at that point anyway. Right? Daenerys can still accept Dorne's offer of alliance if it is coming from Arianne. If it's coming from Quentyn, Dany has to marry him. Arianne is already a known serious bender of her father's rules and stipulations so it's not unthinkable for Arianne to secure an alliance with Dany without a marriage by way of Hizdahr.

Five....Arianne -- who, like I said earlier, is bold -- so she wouldn't have started sulking when Daenerys told her "no" or "not right now." Arianne would've found a way to persuade Daenerys to change her mind or to manipulate Daenerys into going faster. Arianne also would've been inclined to try to help Daenerys.

And six, Arianne is the one who is in control of her friend group...unlike Quentyn who finds himself frequently pulled to and fro until the very last moment. Arianne would've been able to throw her weight around more.

 

 

For the record, the best envoy would have been Oberyn. Or maybe even the trio of Obara, Nymeria and Tyene if Doran wanted to be THAT secretive.

[Kierria]

It was a marriage proposal.  Doran had no idea what the situation was in Essos.  To send more armed men could be seen as threatening. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

On 12/12/2020 at 5:35 PM, CamiloRP said:

Why didn't he have dragon knowledge when Doran has a huge dragon book? 

In the Dragontamer, Quentyn thinks that he wants to read some of those books his father sends him. If Doran sent Quentyn relevant books to his journey, then he may not even have read them at all.

On 12/15/2020 at 9:25 AM, CamiloRP said:

Still don't see why Doran wouldn't trust on his wife or the Sealord, when he trusted in him for the marriage pact.

The Sealord who witnessed the pact between Oberyn and Willem Darry died. We don't know if he even has a relationship with the current Sealord who is apparently dying. 

[CamiloRP]

43 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

In the Dragontamer, Quentyn thinks that he wants to read some of those books his father sends him. If Doran sent Quentyn relevant books to his journey, then he may not even have read them at all.

Quentyn laments not knowing enough on dragons and chatises Drink for not reading the books Maester Kedry gave him, implying he did because he thought it important for the mission, at least. If Doran had provided books on dragons, odds are Quent would have read them and the mission would've gone better.

 

Quote

The Sealord who witnessed the pact between Oberyn and Willem Darry died. We don't know if he even has a relationship with the current Sealord who is apparently dying. 

You don't know if he died. And then, why not involve Mellario? she wouldn't betray her own son, and Quent even ends up in Volantis. In the OG marriage pact Doran involved the Sealord of Braavos and the Archon of Tyrosh, if he's to be believed, why not involve one of them to keep the pact?

[Alexis-something-Rose]

10 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

If Doran had provided books on dragons, odds are Quent would have read them and the mission would've gone better.

You really can't be sure of that. We don't know when Doran started planning this mission for Quentyn. Quentyn could possibly have been with Lord Yronwood's host in the Boneway as early as Davos II, ACoK 42. Books may not seem all that important when you think that you might be going to war anytime now. 

Whatever books Maester Kedry brought with him could have been left behind in Volantis with the armors and the gold.

10 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

You don't know if he died.

Barristan mentions in passing that the pact was signed by two dead men. Quentyn doesn't know that Oberyn is dead, he left Westeros before it happened,  leaving the Sealord and Willem Darry as the two dead men.

10 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

And then, why not involve Mellario? she wouldn't betray her own son, and Quent even ends up in Volantis.

Maybe he doesn't trust her reaction to his plan. He can't tell Mellario that he is sending Quentyn to Slaver's Bay without telling her the why of it. And Mellario is an odd bird. She flipped out when Doran told her that he was sending Quentyn to be fostered with Yronwood. She threatened to harm herself when he told her that he might be sending Arianne to Tyrosh to serve in the Archon's court. Then she ups and leaves, abandoning all three children and it has been years since they even saw her. Like WTF! 

I should have gone to Norvos to see my mother and the place that gave her birth, so she would know I had not forgotten her. 

10 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

In the OG marriage pact Doran involved the Sealord of Braavos and the Archon of Tyrosh, if he's to be believed, why not involve one of them to keep the pact?

The Archon of Tyrosh was not involved in the pact. The plan was to foster Arianne there until Mellario objected.  

And again, the more people who know about a secret conspiracy, the more chances there is that the secret conspiracy will be uncovered. Look how things went for Arianne when she tried to crown Myrcella.