Jump to content
The Bard of Banefort

Who will be our POV for Euron?

Recommended Posts

To me, this is not a mystery.  Euron is obviously headed for Meereen, which gives GRRM a whole host of POV options in the immediate future.

Everyone seems to think he is headed towards Oldtown or some other part of Westeros.  I'm a bit confused as to why people think this.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

To me, this is not a mystery.  Euron is obviously headed for Meereen, which gives GRRM a whole host of POV options in the immediate future.

Everyone seems to think he is headed towards Oldtown or some other part of Westeros.  I'm a bit confused as to why people think this.  

Care to explain ?

Why would he go to Mereen ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, PrettyLittlePsycho said:

Care to explain ?

Why would he go to Mereen ?

Because he wants dragons and he wants Dany, and neither of them are in Oldtown.

Your turn.  Why would he go to Oldtown?  He makes it pretty clear that these raids on the Reach and its rivers, ports and islands are merely distractions to keep his stupid underlings busy.  He is bribing them with poison gifts.  These are evidently incidental to whatever his real plan is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/27/2021 at 4:48 PM, Mister Smikes said:

Your turn.  Why would he go to Oldtown?  He makes it pretty clear that these raids on the Reach and its rivers, ports and islands are merely distractions to keep his stupid underlings busy.  He is bribing them with poison gifts.  These are evidently incidental to whatever his real plan is.

Because his men want to take the Reach, and the Ironborn aren't obedient and meek, they will live him if he doesn't please them.

Also, he already sent Victarion to Dany, why would he send two separate fleets?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/28/2021 at 8:48 AM, Mister Smikes said:

Because he wants dragons and he wants Dany, and neither of them are in Oldtown.

Your turn.  Why would he go to Oldtown?  He makes it pretty clear that these raids on the Reach and its rivers, ports and islands are merely distractions to keep his stupid underlings busy.  He is bribing them with poison gifts.  These are evidently incidental to whatever his real plan is.

He is literally right there and about to attack oldtown (unless there has been a massive misdirection about his motivations). He was waiting for the fleet to move out of the harbor which is happening now the Redwyne fleet has arrived to join with them. I am assuming there is something magical in the citadel he is after. I don't believe he cares about his men at all other than helping him achieve whatever unknown goal he has. My guess is he is just going to use his fleet as a distraction so he can sneak a few ships in and sack the citadel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Because his men want to take the Reach, and the Ironborn aren't obedient and meek, they will live him if he doesn't please them.

That does not mean he is going to join them.  If certain fools want to attack the Reach, he will let them attack the Reach.  It is a poisoned gift, as Rodrik the Reader points out.  They are only going to bring the entire wrath of the Reach down upon them.  Somehow, I don't think Euron is going to be still be hanging around when that happens.  

Euron did not participate in the attack on the Mander.  He let Victarion do that.  He does not think much of those who want to attack the Reach, instead of going to Slaver's Bay.  "I would give them dragons, and they should out for grapes".   Then he manipulates Victarion to Slaver's Bay with the Iron Fleet.

After he imprisons Aeron imprisoned in the hold of The Silence, he tells him they are sailing for dragons.

Quote

Also, he already sent Victarion to Dany, why would he send two separate fleets?

The Silence is not a second  fleet.  It is one ship.  A very fast ship.  When he sets out from the Arbor he leaves the castle burning behind him.  Other ships accompany him, at least at first, I guess there are 12, since he has 12 of his captains with him.  Only a few of the to her ships get Priests tied to their prows.

Edited by Mister Smikes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, Makk said:

He is literally right there and about to attack oldtown

Right where?  And why do you believe he is about to attack Oldtown?

Quote

(unless there has been a massive misdirection about his motivations).

What "misdirection" are you talking about?   Surely he made no secret that his real interest lies in Slaver's Bay.

Quote

He was waiting for the fleet to move out of the harbor which is happening now the Redwyne fleet has arrived to join with them.

What fleet to move out of what harbor?

Quote

 I am assuming there is something magical in the citadel he is after.

Sounds like you are assuming.

Quote

I don't believe he cares about his men at all other than helping him achieve whatever unknown goal he has. 

Certainly.

Quote

My guess is he is just going to use his fleet as a distraction so he can sneak a few ships in and sack the citadel.

Sounds like you are guessing.

Edited by Mister Smikes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Right where?  And why do you believe he is about to attack Oldtown?

What "misdirection" are you talking about?   Surely he made no secret that his real interest lies in Slaver's Bay.

What fleet to move out of what harbor?

Sounds like you are assuming.

Certainly.

Sounds like you are guessing.

Have you read Aeron 1 from winds of winter? Linked at the top of this forum. Even the end of dance though has euron right there. I was only guessing how the battle was to be resolved. Not whether there is about to be a battle just outside Old Town. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Makk said:

Have you read Aeron 1 from winds of winter?   Linked at the top of this forum.

Yes I have.   So again, what are you talking about?

THE FORSAKEN ends with Euron and 12 of his captains sailing from an island off the Arbor for an unknown destination.  I think he is heading for Slaver's Bay.  What makes you think he is headed for Oldtown? 

Quote

Even the end of dance though has euron right there.

Right where?   Euron does not even appear in ADWD, at least not under his own name.  People do talk about him though.  For instance, Asha says "Euron has no interest in Balon's conquests.  My nuncle's off chasing dragons." 

Which sounds right to me.  It fits what Euron told us in FEAST and will tell us again in THE FORSAKEN sample chapter..

Quote

I was only guessing how the battle was to be resolved. Not whether there is about to be a battle just outside Old Town. 

If you are not guessing then provide the evidence.

Edited by Mister Smikes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/26/2020 at 6:13 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

I need a TheLastWolf translator.

We have a fine assortment of Joesetta Stones for your use.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Yes I have.   So again, what are you talking about?

THE FORSAKEN ends with Euron and 12 of his captains sailing from an island off the Arbor for an unknown destination.  I think he is heading for Slaver's Bay.  What makes you think he is headed for Oldtown? 

Right where?   Euron does not even appear in ADWD, at least not under his own name.  People do talk about him though.  For instance, Asha says "Euron has no interest in Balon's conquests.  My nuncle's off chasing dragons." 

Which sounds right to me.  It fits what Euron told us in FEAST and will tell us again in THE FORSAKEN sample chapter..

If you are not guessing then provide the evidence.

The Arbor is probably less than 200 miles from Oldtown. It is much, much further from Slavers Bay, probably more than 5000 miles as the crow flies, through inclement waters and directly through the approaching Redwyne fleet. It took Victarion over 3 months to reach Slavers Bay, having lost multiple ships along the way. It would take a day or so to sail up the Sound and reach Oldtown. From a military point of view, if you were preparing for a naval assault on Oldtown, basing yourself around the Arbor is the only logical place to do it from.

Quote

“Count yourself blessed, Damphair,” said Stonehand. “We are going back to sea. The Redwyne fleet creeps toward us. The winds have been against them rounding Dorne, but they’re finally near enough to have emboldened the old women in Oldtown, so now Leyton Hightower’s sons move down the Whispering Sound in hopes of catching us in the rear.”

“You know what it’s like to be caught in the rear, don’t you?” said the Red Oarsman, laughing.

This passage strongly indicates they were waiting for either the Redwyne fleet that was assaulting Dragonstone to return or, more likely imo, the Hightowers to send their own ships out of the Whispering sound leaving Oldtown undefended.

Quote

“Take them to the ships,” Torwold Browntooth commanded.

And so, Aeron Damphair returned to the salt sea. A dozen longships were drawn up at the wharf below the castle, and twice as many beached along the strand. Familiar banners streamed from their masts: the Greyjoy kraken, the bloody moon of Wynch, the warhorn of the Goodbrothers. But from their sterns flew a flag the priest had never seen before: a red eye with a black pupil beneath an iron crown supported by two crows.

Beyond them, a host of merchant ships floated on a tranquil, turquoise sea. Cogs, carracks, fishing boats, even a great cog, a swollen sow of a ship as big as the Leviathan. Prizes of war, the Damphair knew. Euron Crow’s Eye stood upon the deck of Silence, clad in a suit of black scale armor like nothing Aeron had ever seen before. Dark as smoke it was, but Euron wore it as easily as if it was the thinnest silk. The scales were edged in red gold, and gleamed and shimmered when they moved. Patterns could be seen within the metal, whorls and glyphs and arcane symbols folded into the steel.

Here we see what Euron has at his disposal. He has 12 Ironborn ships, and a much larger collection of captured ships. Euron is dressed for battle.

Quote

“Your Grace,” said Torwold Browntooth. “I have the priests. What do you want done with them?”

“Bind them to the prows,” Euron commanded. “My brother on the Silence. Take one for yourself. Let them dice for the others, one to a ship. Let them feel the spray, the kiss of the Drowned God, wet and salty.”

Here Euron is strapping priests and warlocks and his own unborn child to the outside of the ships just before they head off. We don't know exactly what these are for but it seems likely to be some sort of magical sacrifice.

My guess, and this part is an educated guess, is that he intends to use the captured ships as a decoy to engage the Redwyne and High Tower ships, while his longships sail up the Sound and assault a now less defended Oldtown.

Your own deduction that he now intends to leave for Slavers bay doesn't make any sense.

1) It is so much further away

2) There would have been no point in waiting in fact it added another much bigger fleet as an obstacle.

3) Why give Dragonbinder to his brother rather than keeping it under his own control?

4) Why leave at this point? Why get dressed up for battle and strap all these priests up to the ships who will be dead in a couple of days? There is some purpose to this and unless there is something completely out of left field (like opening up a magical portal to sail through) which is not GRRMs style, then this purpose is not to sail off to Slavers Bay.  

Edit

Quote

“Why should I want to hold them?” His brother’s smiling eye glittered in the lantern light, blue and bold and full of malice. “The Shields have served my purpose. I took them with one hand, and gave them away with the other. A great king is open-handed, brother. It is up to the new lords to hold them now. The glory of winning those rocks will be mine forever. When they are lost, the defeat will belong to the four fools who so eagerly accepted my gifts.”

He moved closer. “Our longships are raiding up the Mander and all along the coast, even to the Arbor and the Redwyne Straits. The Old Way, brother.”

Forgot to add that earlier in the chapter we hear that Euron is generally raiding and pillaging up the entire coastline of the Reach (but not the Westerlands). Although this serves to help Euron keep the Ironborn happy it also spreads the Reach's land based troops out rather than garrisoning them in the biggest city in the south. 

Edited by Makk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Makk said:

The Arbor is probably less than 200 miles from Oldtown.

More like 280, but who cares?  If I walk out of my house with a grocery list in my hand, I am probably heading to the grocery store.  It does not matter that my next door neighbor's house is 20 times as close.   We already know what's on Euron's shopping list because he made no secret of it.  He wants Dany and he wants Dragons, and neither of them are in Oldtown.

Quote

From a military point of view, if you were preparing for a naval assault on Oldtown, basing yourself around the Arbor is the only logical place to do it from.

Uh, maybe, maybe not.  But the only problem is you have started with the assumption that Euron wants to attack Oldtown.

But what he SAYS is that he is after dragons.  What he SAYS is that the Reach is for fools.  Turns out that the Arbor is also a reasonably logical jumping-off  point for a trip to Slaver's Bay.  It is certainly a step closer than the Shields.

If the Arbor is such a logical base for raiding Oldtown, then why does he burn the castle behind him as he leaves?  Obviously he does not mean to come back.  So where does he mean to go next?  Back to the Shields?   He's already abandoned the Shields to the "fools" he gifted them to.  He tells Aeron as much.  And if he does not expect to hold the Shields (and he says he does not) then he hardly expects to set up shop in Oldtown.

Quote

This passage strongly indicates they were waiting for either the Redwyne fleet that was assaulting Dragonstone to return or, more likely imo, the Hightowers to send their own ships out of the Whispering sound leaving Oldtown undefended.

It does not strongly (or weakly) indicate any such thing to me.  What it indicates is that Euron plans to be gone from the Shields before any counter-attack comes.  Which, by amazing random coincidence, is exactly what he says elsewhere.

Quote

Here Euron is strapping priests and warlocks and his own unborn child to the outside of the ships just before they head off. We don't know exactly what these are for but it seems likely to be some sort of magical sacrifice.

He is reputed to have the magical power to control winds through various forms of blood sacrifice.

Quote

Your own deduction that he now intends to leave for Slavers bay doesn't make any sense.

1) It is so much further away

Who cares?  It is where Euron wants to go.  And if Euron can "always have fair winds and never be becalmed" he can get there at a steady 12 knots in 2 weeks or less.

Quote

2) There would have been no point in waiting in fact it added another much bigger fleet as an obstacle.

Why are you assuming he was "waiting".  THE FORESAKEN chapter is deliberately set up so that poor Aeron has no idea what Euron has been doing, where he has been, or what he has been up to, during his five months or more of disorienting darkness and delirium.

Quote

3) Why give Dragonbinder to his brother rather than keeping it under his own control?

We can answer that question when we know how it works.  Euron's gifts are poisoned.

Quote

4) Why leave at this point?

Who cares?  We know where he wants to go.  He tells us.

Quote

Why get dressed up for battle

Because that's how he always dresses.   When has he ever dressed any other way?

Quote

... and strap all these priests up to the ships who will be dead in a couple of days?

Maybe for speed.  Or maybe for who knows?  "I don't know, therefore it must be Oldtown" is not a convincing argument.

Quote

There is some purpose to this and unless there is something completely out of left field (like opening up a magical portal to sail through) which is not GRRMs style, then this purpose is not to sail off to Slavers Bay.  

It must be something, therefore it must be Oldtown, is not to me a convincing argument.

His purpose is probably to sail to Slaver's Bay, because he all-but says as much.

Quote

Edit

Forgot to add that earlier in the chapter we hear that Euron is generally raiding and pillaging up the entire coastline of the Reach (but not the Westerlands). 

We never hear this.  You are confusing random Ironborn with Euron.  Give me the quote that you think refers to Euron.

Edited by Mister Smikes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/25/2020 at 9:02 PM, BlackLightning said:

I think Victarion will make it to A Dream of Spring. I think he won't make it past his third or fourth chapter in A Dream of Spring. But he'll survive The Winds of Winter.

Think about it. Daenerys has to destroy the entire system of slavery. She can't do that without conquering and/or subjugating all of Essos. Daenerys has a massive army but it's all land-based. She (and we) need Victarion not only for transportation but to take the cities of Lys and Tyrosh and to bend the knees of the pirates of the Stepstones. I'm sure Yi-Ti and Asshai and the other nations east of the Bone Mountains will abolish slavery and pay homage to her without too much effort on her part. But Lys? Tyrosh? Myr? Pentos?

A slave rebellion will work in Volantis or Norvos. It won't work in Lys, Myr or Tyrosh where the free outnumber the enslaved. And it won't work in Pentos where the ratio of free versus slave is almost equal.

Since we don't have the time or the pages for Daenerys to go to every Free City and since GRRM is a writer who "shows, not tells," Victarion will be the POV we need to see the fall of Lys.

Besides, we have to go to Lys anyways. Not only are Jorah's ex-wife and Edric Storm there, but it's the birthplace of Varys...allegedly. GRRM promised us that we would know the truth about Varys in A Dream of Spring and I feel we can't do that without paying Lys of visit. There's also a lot of pureblood descendants of Valyrians there which would address some other ongoing subplots regarding the Doom and the Targaryen dynasty.

Daenerys doesn't need Victarion, she needs his ships. And even that is questionable, since Volantis is bringing a fleet of between 300 and 500 ships to Meereen. Most of the soldiers in the fleet are slaves, who want nothing more than to be freed by the very person they are sent to attack. I think that they are going to revolt against the masters and join Dany the moment they see Meereen appearing on the horizon, if they haven't done that along the way already. The Volantene fleet has been presented as Meereen and Daenerys's doom many times throughout ADWD, and it would come as a nice twist if it ended up being their savior against Yunkaï. 

The point is that if the Volantene fleet goes to Daenerys, Victarion's Iron Fleet becomes nearly useless when it comes to specifically transporting soldiers. Victarion has only about 50 ships, plus some prizes of war he took along the way. Not much in comparison to the min. 300+ Volantene ships. And Daenerys may not even need that many ships to transport her armies across the seas to Westeros. She can for instance have her Dothraki Khalasar (once she takes control of the Dothraki, that is) travel across the Dothraki Sea to Volantis, while she flies off to Meereen, sorts out the mess there and joins the Dothraki at Volantis with the rest of her armies using the Volantene fleet. The only time the Dothraki will need to cross the Narrow Sea will be the final step of the journey, when Daenerys launches her invasion of Westeros, and she can always do several trips from Essos to Westeros where the water is narrowest (Tyrosh/Cape Wrath, or Andalos/Dragonstone & Cracklaw Point) if she doesn't have enough ships.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, The Winged Griffin said:

Daenerys doesn't need Victarion, she needs his ships. And even that is questionable, since Volantis is bringing a fleet of between 300 and 500 ships to Meereen.

And when they have all destroyed each other, Euron will sail in with more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

OP 

How about Euron himself... 

I'd like that very much. 

But I hope George doesn't do something clichéd with a psychopath POV 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/3/2021 at 9:31 AM, TheLastWolf said:

OP 

How about Euron himself... 

Really unlikely, George doesn't want any king POVs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...