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Walder Frey - Hate the game, not the player.


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I was inspired by a similar topic posted by another fan two years ago.  "Hate the game, not the player" is a good way to look at Walder Frey.  Guest rights was broken and there can be no denial of that.  He and Roose murdered an unreliable ally.  But we need to look at his circumstances before we judge. 

A.  Walder Frey did not start the quarrel between the Starks and the Lannisters.  Blame that on Jaime, Catelyn, Tywin, and Robb. 

B.  Catelyn took what should have been a matter for Robert to judge and she instead arrested the son of Tywin. 

C.  Tywin retaliates by attacking innocent people in the river lands.

D.  The Freys defended their smallfolk from the Westermen's attacks like any good lords would do. 

E.   The Starks arrived at his castle and forced him to enter the war.  This is no small matter because it meant rebellion.

F.   Eddard Stark, for all the world knew, committed treason against a king and rots in the dungeons.

G.  Walder gave the Starks a fair and reasonable deal.  He carried out his end of the pact.  Robb Stark disrespected him and breaks his oath to marry a girl he preferred. 

H.  House Frey was now guilty of rebellion and must find a way to win back forgiveness from the king and his Lannister hand.  The only way was to help them fight the winning Stark and Tully houses.

I.   How does a sub-house fight two larger houses?  The Freys can't do this openly.  They would lose.  A trick is needed to lure the leader, Robb, into a trap.

J.   Walder faced danger for himself and his family if the Tullys should remain the major power in the River lands.  The Tullys would surely retaliate for him backing away from continued support of Robb. Any deal needed to include the destruction of the Tullys. 

For Roose there is no excuse.   But a person who is not a fan of the Starks would understand why Walder did what he did.  He wasn't a player until the Starks forced him in the game. 

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25 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

H.  House Frey was now guilty of rebellion and must find a way to win back forgiveness from the king and his Lannister hand.  The only way was to help them fight the winning Stark and Tully houses.

I.   How does a sub-house fight two larger houses?  The Freys can't do this openly.  They would lose.  A trick is needed to lure the leader, Robb, into a trap.

See here's the mistake you make. The Freys could just stay out of the rebellion from that point on. Tywin wouldn't mind as it means removing an important ally from Robb Stark and there was little Robb Stark could do, especially given that he was in the wrong.

And that's what happens for a good chunk of ASOS, they stay neutral and no one bothers them. So the Red Wedding wasn't in any way shape or form necessary for them to stay alive and prosperous, they have a long enough history of sitting on their asses and doing nothing to know that. So no, not excusable in any way shape or form

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34 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

I was inspired by a similar topic posted by another fan two years ago.  "Hate the game, not the player" is a good way to look at Walder Frey.  Guest rights was broken and there can be no denial of that.  He and Roose murdered an unreliable ally.  But we need to look at his circumstances before we judge. 

A.  Walder Frey did not start the quarrel between the Starks and the Lannisters.  Blame that on Jaime, Catelyn, Tywin, and Robb. 

B.  Catelyn took what should have been a matter for Robert to judge and she instead arrested the son of Tywin. 

C.  Tywin retaliates by attacking innocent people in the river lands.

D.  The Freys defended their smallfolk from the Westermen's attacks like any good lords would do. 

E.   The Starks arrived at his castle and forced him to enter the war.  This is no small matter because it meant rebellion.

F.   Eddard Stark, for all the world knew, committed treason against a king and rots in the dungeons.

G.  Walder gave the Starks a fair and reasonable deal.  He carried out his end of the pact.  Robb Stark disrespected him and breaks his oath to marry a girl he preferred. 

H.  House Frey was now guilty of rebellion and must find a way to win back forgiveness from the king and his Lannister hand.  The only way was to help them fight the winning Stark and Tully houses.

I.   How does a sub-house fight two larger houses?  The Freys can't do this openly.  They would lose.  A trick is needed to lure the leader, Robb, into a trap.

J.   Walder faced danger for himself and his family if the Tullys should remain the major power in the River lands.  The Tullys would surely retaliate for him backing away from continued support of Robb. Any deal needed to include the destruction of the Tullys. 

For Roose there is no excuse.   But a person who is not a fan of the Starks would understand why Walder did what he did.  He wasn't a player until the Starks forced him in the game. 

E.  There was no "forced" about it.  Walder negotiated a hard bargain, and was motivated by resentment towards Tywin Lannister.

H.  It was open to Walder at that point to withdraw from the alliance, and either switch sides or proclaim neutrality.  Instead, he negotiated a fresh agreement with Robb, while planning mass murder in his own home.

Walder was a fool.  He signed the death warrant of House Frey, as a result of his behaviour.  Even their allies make clear how much they despise them.

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He joined the rebellion to gain advantages for his house, then seeked revenge when he felt offended. He also feared Tywin. He made his choices with incomplete information. He didn't realize that Valar morghulis included Tywin, that Winter was coming and that his name is Frey and rhymes with prey.

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1 hour ago, Tucu said:

He joined the rebellion to gain advantages for his house, then seeked revenge when he felt offended. He also feared Tywin. He made his choices with incomplete information. He didn't realize that Valar morghulis included Tywin, that Winter was coming and that his name is Frey and rhymes with prey.

If Dany comes to Westeros soon enough then Freys could turn their coats again and knelt to her and so become her "loyal" bannermen. If they do that they could gain overlordship of Riverlands. Naturally assuming that Littlefinger do not make that deal with her b4 them.

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2 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

H.  House Frey was now guilty of rebellion and must find a way to win back forgiveness from the king and his Lannister hand.  The only way was to help them fight the winning Stark and Tully houses.

I.   How does a sub-house fight two larger houses?  The Freys can't do this openly.  They would lose.  A trick is needed to lure the leader, Robb, into a trap.

Though it wasn't necessary to kill everyone present on the wedding. Instead they could have spiked their wine with dream-sleep potion (what LF gives to Robert Arryn). Then Freys could have binded and arrested those people, and gave them to government officials. Maybe some of those people would have been executed, though most likely majority would have either been sent to The Wall or pardoned thru payment of ransom to the Crown (because the Crown owned a lot of money to Iron Bank). Even after the First Blackfyre Rebellion majority of rebels were pardoned, they did paid ramson, some of their lands were confiscated, they were forced to give their children as wardens/hostages to the Crown, but they weren't executed. So what Freys did was an overkill. It wasn't necessary. And even their need to be pardoned by Lannisters for their previous support of Starks is not a viable excuse for what they did. Walder could have played this game differently, but he made a choice to kill all Stark-Tully guests because he had a grudge against Cat, Robb and Cat's father (for not attending Walder's latest wedding and giving him a mocking nickname). It was not about playing the Game of Thrones, it was personal, so "Hate the game, not the player" is totally off mark in this case.

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2 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

If Dany comes to Westeros soon enough then Freys could turn their coats again and knelt to her and so become her "loyal" bannermen. If they do that they could gain overlordship of Riverlands. Naturally assuming that Littlefinger do not make that deal with her b4 them.

The Riverlands food is gone and the Frey lands are on the opposite end of any supply lines from the South. He will soon be eating his grandchildren.

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19 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Though it wasn't necessary to kill everyone present on the wedding. Instead they could have spiked their wine with dream-sleep potion (what LF gives to Robert Arryn). Then Freys could have binded and arrested those people, and gave them to government officials. Maybe some of those people would have been executed, though most likely majority would have either been sent to The Wall or pardoned thru payment of ransom to the Crown (because the Crown owned a lot of money to Iron Bank). Even after the First Blackfyre Rebellion majority of rebels were pardoned, they did paid ramson, some of their lands were confiscated, they were forced to give their children as wardens/hostages to the Crown, but they weren't executed. So what Freys did was an overkill. It wasn't necessary. And even their need to be pardoned by Lannisters for their previous support of Starks is not a viable excuse for what they did. Walder could have played this game differently, but he made a choice to kill all Stark-Tully guests because he had a grudge against Cat, Robb and Cat's father (for not attending Walder's latest wedding and giving him a mocking nickname). It was not about playing the Game of Thrones, it was personal, so "Hate the game, not the player" is totally off mark in this case.

Not only that, but killing them was a worse move for taking prisoners. An imprisoned king can't be replaced by an heir, and his vassals are less likely to rebell.

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53 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Not only that, but killing them was a worse move for taking prisoners. An imprisoned king can't be replaced by an heir, and his vassals are less likely to rebell.

Exactly. It would have had better outcome for Freys and Lannisters if they took Robb as a hostage, like Bloodraven did with Daemon II Blackfyre after his failed rebellion. If instead of killing Robb they brought him to King's Landing and kept him at court, same as they did with Sansa, then they could have controlled The North, and by taking Edmure and Cat as hostages they would have also gained control over Riverlands. That way they could have stopped Rebellion without further bloodshed. While now, even though officially the War of Five Kings ended, there's still major unrest all over 7K. Freys are idiots. Walder doomed his House. When the Red Wedding V2 will happen to Freys-Lannisters, nobody will pity them. They will reap what the sow, same as Reyne-Tarbecks (Castamere) and Darklyn-Hollards (Duskendale).

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Guess we can throw this in the same category of apologists that say Janos Slynt was wrongfully oppressed and Ramsay is just misunderstood.

There is a level of proportionality. Had Walder declared for Joffrey and closed the Twins to Robb that could be understandable. He took it way beyond that.

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Frey Kings.  Frey Kings used the same term.  Robb Stark was an idiot.  Too bad a way was not available to assassinate him and still be safe for the Freys.  House Tully would not care about Robb’s oath breaking.  Edmure would have punished the Freys for desertion on the battlefield even if Robb was the one who broke up the deal in the first place.  It’s what the Tullys did to the Goodbrooks.  It’s not Tywin and Robb who Walder should worry most about.  It was Edmure.  Any hostile move against the Starks had to involve the destruction of the Tullys.  The complete destruction of the Starks was for Roose Bolton’s security.  The red wedding allowed Walder and Roose to stop a wannabe king and a rebel.  

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5 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Robb Stark disrespected him and breaks his oath to marry a girl he preferred

Finish it. Preferred not to dishonor. Not to leave a bastard in her belly. Robb has seen the woes of his half brother Jon already to make that mistake. 

5 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

For Roose there is no excuse

Anyone who says otherwise can face my pen 

5 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

But a person who is not a fan of the Starks would understand why Walder did what he did. 

Try appealing openly to the impartial and unbiased. At least for show when your intentions are to call out to all the not Stark fans (read haters). 

5 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

He wasn't a player until the Starks forced him in the game

Oh boy, he was playing the game even back when Dunk visited his dad. No way a slimy bastard like him could live for so long without playing. 

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3 hours ago, Tucu said:

He will soon be eating his grandchildren

With only salt. Guest rights matter 

#freyfamilyvalues

19 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Well this is certainly a controversial topic.

No better topic genre for haters to garner more views, likes and follows and more hate posts from like minded haters etc

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

Guess we can throw this in the same category of apologists that say Janos Slynt was wrongfully oppressed and Ramsay is just misunderstood.

There is a level of proportionality. Had Walder declared for Joffrey and closed the Twins to Robb that could be understandable. He took it way beyond that.

:agree:

 

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7 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

I was inspired by a similar topic posted by another fan two years ago.  "Hate the game, not the player" is a good way to look at Walder Frey.  Guest rights was broken and there can be no denial of that.  He and Roose murdered an unreliable ally.  But we need to look at his circumstances before we judge. 

A.  Walder Frey did not start the quarrel between the Starks and the Lannisters.  Blame that on Jaime, Catelyn, Tywin, and Robb. 

B.  Catelyn took what should have been a matter for Robert to judge and she instead arrested the son of Tywin. 

C.  Tywin retaliates by attacking innocent people in the river lands.

D.  The Freys defended their smallfolk from the Westermen's attacks like any good lords would do. 

E.   The Starks arrived at his castle and forced him to enter the war.  This is no small matter because it meant rebellion.

F.   Eddard Stark, for all the world knew, committed treason against a king and rots in the dungeons.

G.  Walder gave the Starks a fair and reasonable deal.  He carried out his end of the pact.  Robb Stark disrespected him and breaks his oath to marry a girl he preferred. 

H.  House Frey was now guilty of rebellion and must find a way to win back forgiveness from the king and his Lannister hand.  The only way was to help them fight the winning Stark and Tully houses.

I.   How does a sub-house fight two larger houses?  The Freys can't do this openly.  They would lose.  A trick is needed to lure the leader, Robb, into a trap.

J.   Walder faced danger for himself and his family if the Tullys should remain the major power in the River lands.  The Tullys would surely retaliate for him backing away from continued support of Robb. Any deal needed to include the destruction of the Tullys. 

For Roose there is no excuse.   But a person who is not a fan of the Starks would understand why Walder did what he did.  He wasn't a player until the Starks forced him in the game. 

I’d agree or at least understand where you’re coming from about how from Lord Walder’s perspective he had no other choice, if Walder Frey wasn’t an opportunist and let’s face it, a man who GRRM said would’ve betrayed Robb regardless of if he’d have broken his marriage pact once the war started going against him.

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6 hours ago, Tucu said:

The Riverlands food is gone and the Frey lands are on the opposite end of any supply lines from the South. He will soon be eating his grandchildren.

Lands controlled by house Frey were not really raided by anybody and so their granaries should be full. Besides Twins exist both side of Green Fork so as long as any boat could sail they should be able to import enough food to feed themselves. Or I assume that Freys have much better chances of feeding themselves than most of the houses in Westeros.

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33 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

Lands controlled by house Frey were not really raided by anybody and so their granaries should be full. Besides Twins exist both side of Green Fork so as long as any boat could sail they should be able to import enough food to feed themselves. Or I assume that Freys have much better chances of feeding themselves than most of the houses in Westeros.

Walder fed the guests at the Red Wedding and then the Freys, Boltons and Karstarks returning North.

Quote

Winterfell's storerooms and cellar vaults were empty. A long supply train had come with Bolton and his friends of Frey up through the Neck

They also had to fed their men for the sieges on Riverrun and Seagard:

Quote

The Freys are hauling food and fodder down from the Twins, but Ser Ryman claims he does not have enough to share, so we must forage for ourselves. Half the men I send off to look for food do not return. Some are deserting. Others we find ripening under trees, with ropes about their necks."

Armies have been moving across the Riverlands for 2 years.

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1 hour ago, Tucu said:

Walder fed the guests at the Red Wedding and then the Freys, Boltons and Karstarks returning North.

He actually did not feed Robb's army. Refused to. Just the 50-100 or so people in Edmure's wedding party were fed.

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

They also had to fed their men for the sieges on Riverrun and Seagard:

They also get to pick up the supplies of Riverrun and Seagard, if they needed them.

 

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23 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

He actually did not feed Robb's army. Refused to. Just the 50-100 or so people in Edmure's wedding party were fed.

They also get to pick up the supplies of Riverrun and Seagard, if they needed them.

 

The Lannisters already had trouble foraging during the siege of Riverrun. The Blackfish had enough to feed his small garrison for two years but that is not enough to supply anybody else. Also, the supply lines between Riverrun and The Twins are under attack by outlaws and wolf packs.

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