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Walder Frey - Hate the game, not the player.


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27 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The Lannisters already had trouble foraging during the siege of Riverrun. The Blackfish had enough to feed his small garrison for two years but that is not enough to supply anybody else.

And now they have Riverrun and the access to those supplies. Also now they have Riverrun those armies are no longer needed there. They will move on.

27 minutes ago, Tucu said:

 

Also, the supply lines between between Riverrun and The Twins are under attack by outlaws and wolf packs.

Yes. But that is moot, Riverrun has now been taken. Those supply lines no longer needed.

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11 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

See here's the mistake you make. The Freys could just stay out of the rebellion from that point on. Tywin wouldn't mind as it means removing an important ally from Robb Stark and there was little Robb Stark could do, especially given that he was in the wrong.

We don't know that. We have no idea what kind of retaliation Tywin would have on the Freys. Jaime would still have a hand, Stafford, Willem, Cleos and Tion likely still alive and the Westerlands not invaded.

There are genuine reasons why Tywin and the Westerlands would be pissed with the Freys, more so than the other lords of the Riverlands.

11 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

And that's what happens for a good chunk of ASOS, they stay neutral and no one bothers them.

How many months do you think they stayed neutral for?

11 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

 

So the Red Wedding wasn't in any way shape or form necessary for them to stay alive and prosperous,

Maybe, maybe not. It did net them more land and power.

But the Red Wedding was motivated more for vengeance than it was for gain.

 

 

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52 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

And now they have Riverrun and the access to those supplies. Also now they have Riverrun those armies are no longer needed there. They will move on.

Yes. But that is moot, Riverrun has now been taken. Those supply lines no longer needed.

The supplies in Riverrun were enough for a few hundred men. That food now has to sustain a garrison of House Frey of Riverrun plus the household. That will not last long and by the end of AFFC there is no hope for another harvest. This is from Jamie at the end of AFFC

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Snow in the riverlands. If it was snowing here, it could well be snowing on Lannisport as well, and on King's Landing.Winter is marching south, and half our granaries are empty. Any crops still in the fields were doomed. There would be no more plantings, no more hopes of one last harvest. He found himself wondering what his father would do to feed the realm, before he remembered that Tywin Lannister was dead.

 

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13 hours ago, Tucu said:

The supplies in Riverrun were enough for a few hundred men. #

Yes. With zero new supplies coming in and out of Riverrun the supplies in Riverrun were enough to feed the garrison of Riverrun for a couple of years.

That siege has been listed. The majority of soldiers from the Westerlands and Riverlands are going to be gone. And trade will be able to come and go from Riverrun in the aftermath.

13 hours ago, Tucu said:

 

That food now has to sustain a garrison of House Frey of Riverrun plus the household.

No. That would only be the case if it was under siege.

13 hours ago, Tucu said:

 

That will not last long and by the end of AFFC there is no hope for another harvest. This is from Jamie at the end of AFFC

You do understand he is talking about a siege, right? The siege is no more.

Lord Emmon's new garrison is two hundred. He has the same stores that the Blackfish just had. He has access to the Rivers and he is able to buy food.

Riverrun and its garrison are going to be fine for food. They have the coin to buy new food.

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45 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yes. With zero new supplies coming in and out of Riverrun the supplies in Riverrun were enough to feed the garrison of Riverrun for a couple of years.

That siege has been listed. The majority of soldiers from the Westerlands and Riverlands are going to be gone. And trade will be able to come and go from Riverrun in the aftermath.

No. That would only be the case if it was under siege.

You do understand he is talking about a siege, right? The siege is no more.

Lord Emmon's new garrison is two hundred. He has the same stores that the Blackfish just had. He has access to the Rivers and he is able to buy food.

Riverrun and its garrison are going to be fine for food. They have the coin to buy new food.

The Riverlands men returning to their lands will still be consuming food. Many will be joining the bands of outlaws and broken men.

Jamie's quote about feeding the realm is after the Riverrun siege is lifted. The snow has killed any hope of a last harvest

Buy food from where? The Westerlands were raided and the Lannisters still need to feed their armies and population. The Reach is being raided by the Ironborn. Dorne is going to war. The Golden Company is taking the Storm Lands. Littlefinger is blocking all food exports in the Vale.

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6 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The Riverlands men returning to their lands will still be consuming food. Many will be joining the bands of outlaws and broken men.

Many? How many?

6 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Jamie's quote about feeding the realm is after the Riverrun siege is lifted. The snow has killed any hope of a last harvest

Yes. Sucks for the smallfolk. The rich who can afford to pay will be fine.

6 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Buy food from where?

Do you think there is no food in the entire continent?

6 minutes ago, Tucu said:

 

The Westerlands were raided

No castles though. And yes, some of the Westerlands was raided. Where do you think the livestock that was stolen from the Riverlands was brought to? Riverrun.

6 minutes ago, Tucu said:

 

and the Lannisters still need to feed their armies and population.

And they will. The nobility and their vassals will be fed first. Same goes the Riverrun. Those with the coin to buy food will be able to buy it.

6 minutes ago, Tucu said:

 

The Reach is being raided by the Ironborn.

Oldtown is being raided by the Ironborn. The Reach is quite vast. Unless you are under the impression that the Reachmen store their granaries on their shores, then I'm not sure your point.

6 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Dorne is going to war. The Golden Company is taking the Storm Lands.

I don't imagine those realms would have been used to feed other realms regardless of their circumstance.

6 minutes ago, Tucu said:

 

Littlefinger is blocking all food exports in the Vale.

No he is not. He is bocking Arryn's from exporting food this early and advising his allies to do the same, the likes of the Royces are selling early.

Littlefinger is, at least according to his words, planning on selling later when the stores will be worth much more. Again, those with the coin to pay for it will be able to buy food.

 

Can I ask, your point seems to be about Westeros in general rather than Riverrun. Riverrun and other noble Houses are going to be in a better position than the majority of the other people of Westeros this winter. They will have supplies already stored and the coin to buy new food. If they do starve, then they will not be alone.

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10 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Many? How many?

Yes. Sucks for the smallfolk. The rich who can afford to pay will be fine.

Those that return to their villages without a hope for a harvest and finds out that their lord is not providing them with food.

17 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No castles though. And yes, some of the Westerlands was raided. Where do you think the livestock that was stolen from the Riverlands was brought to? Riverrun.

We already know the situation in Riverrun. Blackfish "picked the country clean" and that was only enough to sustain his small garrison (he "expelled all the useless mouths"). Most of what they took from the Westerlands was already consumed.

22 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Do you think there is no food in the entire continent?

The situation is bad everywhere with the exception of Dorne and the Vale. But the Riverlands were hit the hardest by the war and their northern areas are at the end of any food supply lines from the South.

28 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Oldtown is being raided by the Ironborn. The Reach is quite vast. Unless you are under the impression that the Reachmen store their granaries on their shores, then I'm not sure your point.

Not just Oldtown. They are raiding the coast, around the Redwyne Straits, Mander and the Whispering sound. The food lost to the Ironborn will reduce the ability of the Reach to export; and they were already feeding KL and the Reach armies.

50 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No he is not. He is bocking Arryn's from exporting food this early and advising his allies to do the same, the likes of the Royces are selling early.

Littlefinger is, at least according to his words, planning on selling later when the stores will be worth much more. Again, those with the coin to pay for it will be able to buy food.

He is blocking sales through everything that he controls. This includes Gulltown that is the main port in the Vale. He plans to sell a lot later once everyone is desperate.

57 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Can I ask, your point seems to be about Westeros in general rather than Riverrun. Riverrun and other noble Houses are going to be in a better position than the majority of the other people of Westeros this winter. They will have supplies already stored and the coin to buy new food. If they do starve, then they will not be alone.

The Riverlands will be hit first and hardest among the southern regions. Moving food might be easy during peace and summer. But with winter storms, outlaws, raiders and war, the long supply lines will not be viable. We have already seen how hard is to move from Deepwood Motte to Winterfell. The other regions will also be hit, just later. To quote Old Nan:

Quote

There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels.

 

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On 12/15/2020 at 5:08 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

I was inspired by a similar topic posted by another fan two years ago.  "Hate the game, not the player" is a good way to look at Walder Frey.  Guest rights was broken and there can be no denial of that.  He and Roose murdered an unreliable ally.  But we need to look at his circumstances before we judge. 

A.  Walder Frey did not start the quarrel between the Starks and the Lannisters.  Blame that on Jaime, Catelyn, Tywin, and Robb. 

B.  Catelyn took what should have been a matter for Robert to judge and she instead arrested the son of Tywin. 

C.  Tywin retaliates by attacking innocent people in the river lands.

D.  The Freys defended their smallfolk from the Westermen's attacks like any good lords would do. 

E.   The Starks arrived at his castle and forced him to enter the war.  This is no small matter because it meant rebellion.

F.   Eddard Stark, for all the world knew, committed treason against a king and rots in the dungeons.

G.  Walder gave the Starks a fair and reasonable deal.  He carried out his end of the pact.  Robb Stark disrespected him and breaks his oath to marry a girl he preferred. 

H.  House Frey was now guilty of rebellion and must find a way to win back forgiveness from the king and his Lannister hand.  The only way was to help them fight the winning Stark and Tully houses.

I.   How does a sub-house fight two larger houses?  The Freys can't do this openly.  They would lose.  A trick is needed to lure the leader, Robb, into a trap.

J.   Walder faced danger for himself and his family if the Tullys should remain the major power in the River lands.  The Tullys would surely retaliate for him backing away from continued support of Robb. Any deal needed to include the destruction of the Tullys. 

For Roose there is no excuse.   But a person who is not a fan of the Starks would understand why Walder did what he did.  He wasn't a player until the Starks forced him in the game. 

Walder reminded me of Eustace from the Hedge Knight novellas.  When the great lords fight, the lesser lords are forced to take up arms and join the fight.  I really wish the Lannisters, Starks, Tullys, Arryns, Martells, Baratheons would just die.  Let all the lords report to the Small Council directly.  The "great" families are the problem.  Every lord should report to the Small Council.  The Small Council in turn should report to the Targaryen monarch.  Increase the size of the council if needed. 

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3 minutes ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Walder reminded me of Eustace from the Hedge Knight novellas.  When the great lords fight, the lesser lords are forced to take up arms and join the fight.  I really wish the Lannisters, Starks, Tullys, Arryns, Martells, Baratheons would just die.  Let all the lords report to the Small Council directly.  The "great" families are the problem.  Every lord should report to the Small Council.  The Small Council in turn should report to the Targaryen monarch.  Increase the size of the council if needed. 

And who would replace those great houses? Probably some other upstart. And you’ll have the same game of thrones where the lords play their games.
And walder is by no means a minor lord. The Freys are one of the most powerful houses in Westeros. Those lesser lords are the ones that don’t have a choice. The haighs, cleganes, and the other minor houses are the ones that have no choice.

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15 minutes ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Walder reminded me of Eustace from the Hedge Knight novellas.  When the great lords fight, the lesser lords are forced to take up arms and join the fight.  I really wish the Lannisters, Starks, Tullys, Arryns, Martells, Baratheons would just die.  Let all the lords report to the Small Council directly.  The "great" families are the problem.  Every lord should report to the Small Council.  The Small Council in turn should report to the Targaryen monarch.  Increase the size of the council if needed. 

The whole system should just die, in the same way the great lords oppress the minor lords, the minor lords oppress the smallfolk, and the monarch oppresses everyone.

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12 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

The whole system should just die, in the same way the great lords oppress the minor lords, the minor lords oppress the smallfolk, and the monarch oppresses everyone.

Wait till you find out the Smallfolk are people as well and oppress and kill each other too.

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14 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Walder reminded me of Eustace from the Hedge Knight novellas.  When the great lords fight, the lesser lords are forced to take up arms and join the fight. 

I cannot think of many noblemen characters that differ from Walder Frey as much as Eustace Osgrey does. An old fashioned knight of old family, with his head high in clouds. Moreover, it was Osgrey who brought the catastrophy upon himself and his family, no great lord.

Nobody forced Frey to anything. He could have stopped Robb's march or just let him pass. Or join him. It was a deal. He had no problem with betraying his senior in the end, he would not have had the problem in the beginning, siding with the IT.

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1 hour ago, Darksnider05 said:

Wait till you find out the Smallfolk are people as well and oppress and kill each other too.

yes, that as well, but the system is way more oppressive than the smallfolk could ever be in their own.

Also, no need to say it like that. 'Be excellent to eachother.'

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On 12/15/2020 at 2:08 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

I was inspired by a similar topic posted by another fan two years ago.  "Hate the game, not the player" is a good way to look at Walder Frey.  Guest rights was broken and there can be no denial of that.  He and Roose murdered an unreliable ally.  But we need to look at his circumstances before we judge. 

A.  Walder Frey did not start the quarrel between the Starks and the Lannisters.  Blame that on Jaime, Catelyn, Tywin, and Robb. 

B.  Catelyn took what should have been a matter for Robert to judge and she instead arrested the son of Tywin. 

C.  Tywin retaliates by attacking innocent people in the river lands.

D.  The Freys defended their smallfolk from the Westermen's attacks like any good lords would do. 

E.   The Starks arrived at his castle and forced him to enter the war.  This is no small matter because it meant rebellion.

F.   Eddard Stark, for all the world knew, committed treason against a king and rots in the dungeons.

G.  Walder gave the Starks a fair and reasonable deal.  He carried out his end of the pact.  Robb Stark disrespected him and breaks his oath to marry a girl he preferred. 

H.  House Frey was now guilty of rebellion and must find a way to win back forgiveness from the king and his Lannister hand.  The only way was to help them fight the winning Stark and Tully houses.

I.   How does a sub-house fight two larger houses?  The Freys can't do this openly.  They would lose.  A trick is needed to lure the leader, Robb, into a trap.

J.   Walder faced danger for himself and his family if the Tullys should remain the major power in the River lands.  The Tullys would surely retaliate for him backing away from continued support of Robb. Any deal needed to include the destruction of the Tullys. 

For Roose there is no excuse.   But a person who is not a fan of the Starks would understand why Walder did what he did.  He wasn't a player until the Starks forced him in the game. 

"These Freys are cursed." —Davos Seaworth 

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Robb and the Starks backed Walder in a corner. Any decision he made would have consequences for his House.  It’s best to think of the dead as war casualties.  All save Cat and Aegon were soldiers.  Those who were killed at the wedding were themselves killers.  Avoid retaliation and move on.  

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1 minute ago, Prince Rhaego Targaryen said:

Robb and the Starks backed Walder in a corner. Any decision he made would have consequences for his House.  It’s best to think of the dead as war casualties.  All save Cat and Aegon were soldiers.  Those who were killed at the wedding were themselves killers.  Avoid retaliation and move on.  

Weird that every single person in Westeros seems to think otherwise

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On 12/16/2020 at 6:27 PM, Quoth the raven, said:

Walder reminded me of Eustace from the Hedge Knight novellas.  When the great lords fight, the lesser lords are forced to take up arms and join the fight.  I really wish the Lannisters, Starks, Tullys, Arryns, Martells, Baratheons would just die.  Let all the lords report to the Small Council directly.  The "great" families are the problem.  Every lord should report to the Small Council.  The Small Council in turn should report to the Targaryen monarch.  Increase the size of the council if needed. 

The comparison with Eustace Osgrey is appropriate in this context.  They lost sons after being forced to choose a side.  There is no doubt in my mind that Walder will lose another son or two to the Starks but Walder will perhaps come out okay, as Lord Osgrey did in the end. 

4 hours ago, Prince Rhaego Targaryen said:

Robb and the Starks backed Walder in a corner. Any decision he made would have consequences for his House.  It’s best to think of the dead as war casualties.  All save Cat and Aegon were soldiers.  Those who were killed at the wedding were themselves killers.  Avoid retaliation and move on.  

Well yeah that would better serve the common good but unrealistic in this case.  Arya's and Jon's personalities were not born that way.  It goes against their nature.  Those two wolves are fierce, primitive, and vindictive.  Just remember what Jon did to Slynt at the wall.  It was revenge on one of his father's political enemies.  Bran will join in the call for revenge after he learns the identity of the person who tried to murder him.  Jaime took away his legs and with it his dreams of becoming a knight.  Their vengeance will be savage and it will harm many innocents. 

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15 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Their vengeance will be savage and it will harm many innocents. 

I can see the Starks wanting to off Slynt, Cersei, Jaime, Littlefinger, Ramsay, and Walder Frey. But I don't know how you go from that, to "harming many innocents" like some mass murder spree. 

Also Bran is aware that Ramsay is the cause of all the destruction at Winterfell, but we don't once see him dwell on that at all.

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I don't much care for the families involved on both sides of that conflict.  I am ok if black Walder and Lothar are killed for their part.  It wasn't fair to kill Merrett though.  The others who took part should be pardoned.  I don't blame Goodbrooke for his participation.  Not after what the Tullys did to his family during the rebellion. 

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21 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

The comparison with Eustace Osgrey is appropriate in this context.  They lost sons after being forced to choose a side.  There is no doubt in my mind that Walder will lose another son or two to the Starks but Walder will perhaps come out okay, as Lord Osgrey did in the end. 

Old Walder walks away from this with a pretty young bride.  :o  Lady Webber was a red head and the person Ser Eustace was fighting with.  So this means Walder gets to wed Sansa Stark.

I don't want to see a Red Wedding II but more than a son will be lost if it should happen.   

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