Jump to content

Is the reference to "sword" really about Blackfyre?


Alexis-something-Rose

Recommended Posts

Yes, I am about to blaspheme.

I had never read the synopsis of Tyrion's ADwD sample chapter from 2005 until fairly recently when I was writing a post about Young Griff. I took the idea that Blackfyre was the sword implied at face value, but now that I read that synopsis, I pretty much disagree with that idea. 

It seems to me after reading this that the sword mentioned refers to a different sword;

Illyrio says he wants to give Young Griff his blessings and has a gift for him in the chests. Haldon tells him there is no time for the litter. Illyrio gets angry and says there are things Griff must know. The Golden Company has broke its contract with Myr and is riding west from the Disputed Lands. Haldon interrupts him by saying they already know this because Benerro has seen it in his fires and that the Golden Company makes for Volantis. That is why Griff needs to make haste. Illyrio says, "The dragon has three heads, there is no need for haste."
Haldon says Griff believes there is need for haste. Haldon eyes Tyrion and then begins to speak in another language. Tyrion cannot tell what it is but thinks it might be Volantene. He catches a few words that come close to High Valyrian. The words he catches are queen, dragon, and sword.

The gift has nothing to do with the mentioned sword. The gift in Tyrion III, ADwD 8, refers to the candied ginger.

"There is a gift for the boy in one of the chests. Some candied ginger. He was always fond of it."

There is no mystery is. The gift is candied ginger, something that YG may not have access to on the account that he lives on a pole boat. 

But what's interesting in this passage is the mention of Benerro. Benerro would have been introduced a lot sooner in the story in this passage. GRRM moved his timeline around and this introduction takes place in Tyrion VI instead, before Tyrion gets to see the man in the flesh in Tyrion VII, ADwD 27.

Haldon already knows the GC has broken contract with Myr because Benerro has seen it in his flames. And it's Haldon who switches from the Common Tongue to a different one and he is the one who is speaking and mentions the words that Tyrion catches, queen, dragon, and sword. This conversation actually sounds like it's about Dany and what Benerro has been saying about her.

There is no mystery about the sword. The stuff that Haldon was talking about to Illyrio, Benerro and his fires, queen, dragon and sword was moved elsewhere, to Tyrion VI, ADwD 22.

The Shy Maid arrives in Selhorys and Griff sends Haldon (and Tyrion) to find out information following the rumors Yandry heard. Dany has not left Meereen, Old Volantis is about to join the war against her. Griff sends out Haldon to Qavo. There, Haldon and Tyrion hear the preaching of a red priest.

"The priest is calling on the Volantenes to go to war," the Halfmaester told him, "but on the side of right, as soldiers of the Lord of Light, R'hllor who made the sun and stars and fights eternally against the darkness. Nyessos and Malaquo have turned away from the light, he says, their hearts darkened by the yellow harpies from the east. He says . . ."
"
Dragons. I understood that word. He said dragons."
"Aye. The dragons have come to carry her to glory."

So Tyrion here recognized one of the three words mentioned in his sample chapter. 

When Tyrion and Haldon speak with Qavo, he gives them more about Benerro. The language spoken is one that Tyrion understands.

"The red priests would be wise to hold their tongues," said Qavo Nogarys. "Already there has been fighting between their followers and those who worship other gods. Benerro's rantings will only serve to bring a savage wrath down upon his head."
"What rantings?" the dwarf asked, toying with his rabble.
The Volantene waved a hand. "In Volantis, thousands of slaves and freedmen crowd the temple plaza every night to hear Benerro shriek of bleeding stars and a sword of fire that will cleanse the world. He has been preaching that Volantis will surely burn if the triarchs take up arms against the silver queen."

I think that is the sword that GRRM was alluding to in that Tyrion chapter, the sword of fire. He was alluding to Lightbringer, the sword of fire, not Blackfyre.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Canon Claude said:

In Bittersteel’s possession after the failure of the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion, IIRC

The thing is, we're not even told that. We assume that the sword was still in possession of Bittersteel because he was the last one to use it, but the sword has essentially not been seen since the Battle of Redgrass Field. Blackfyre vanished from the story altogether, the same way Dark Sister did, except we now know that Bloodraven took DS to the Wall with him.

Bittersteel didn't give Blackfyre to Daemon, even though he was his half-brother's heir. And we can talk all day along about how Bittersteel may have had a problem with Daemon's homosexuality or/and his prophetic dreams, but the sword wasn't given to the men he crowned either. 

Blackfyre is supposed to be this great symbol of power, but Bittersteel didn't give it to Haegon and he didn't give it to Daemon either. Both men died in Westeros. One yielded his sword before he was killed, the other one was killed by Duncan the Tall. No mention of the sword. No mention of the sword in possession of Maelys. 

I'm not sure that the sword ever left Westeros, tbh. 

That being said, I do think that the passage I quoted in the OP may have been misinterpreted. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I'm not sure that the sword ever left Westeros, tbh. 

We know it did. In the Mystery Knight it is confirmed that, at least by then (16 years after the Redgrass Field) the sword is on Bittersteel's hands. Lord Butterwell says: "Frey and I harbored doubts about Lord Peake's pretender since the beginning. He does not bear the sword! If he were his father's son, Bittersteel would have armed him with Blackfyre."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We don't know whether the sword went to Haegon or not ... but if it did, chances are the Targaryens regained the sword at the end of Third Rebellion because Haegon Blackfyre gave up his sword before he was killed. Things are phrased in a manner in TWoIaF as to not give away too much, but if Blackfyre was Haegon's sword then chances are pretty good he lost it. Even more so in light of the fact that Bittersteel himself was also defeated and captured by Bloodraven at the end of that war, meaning that if he had had the sword they could also have taken it from him. They wouldn't have allowed him to take it with him to the Wall ... it was the sword of kings, after all, and Bittersteel was never a king.

Even if the Blackfyres kept it magically after 219 AC, Daemon III suffered a devastating defeat in 236 AC, just as Maelys did in 260 AC. Chances are very low that whatever buddies of theirs who could get away from the battlefield could retain the sword. It was a happy accident that Bittersteel could secure Blackfyre on the Redgrass Field, we cannot count that he/the Blackfyres were this lucky three times afterwards.

In that sense, chances are not that bad that the last guy owning Blackfyre was actually Aerys II (and before him Jaehaerys II, Aegon V, Maekar, and Aerys I) and the sword disappeared during/after the Sack of King's Landing.

And if that is the case, then Varys could have stolen the sword to give it Illyrio who would then give it to Aegon as a token of his kingship.

As for the OP:

Regardless how things are phrased in the original report on the chapter, there is some unknown/interesting stuff in those chests. It is not what Haldon claims it is - just clothing. And they are not heavy enough for gold as Tyrion realized. Blackfyre is a very recognizable weapon, so it makes sense that they would hide it ... but it is most likely not the only thing hidden in those chests. There could also be more dragon eggs, and other Targaryen artifacts - historical crowns (the Conqueror's crown, for instance, or a replica), armor in the Targaryen colors with dragon scales, banners, etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

We know it did. In the Mystery Knight it is confirmed that, at least by then (16 years after the Redgrass Field) the sword is on Bittersteel's hands. Lord Butterwell says: "Frey and I harbored doubts about Lord Peake's pretender since the beginning. He does not bear the sword! If he were his father's son, Bittersteel would have armed him with Blackfyre."

I know what he said. I looked up the quote before I made my post.

Butterwell says that Bittersteel would have given Blackfyre to Daemon if he were his father's son. He didn't. So Butterwell called Daemon "Peake's pretender." He called Daemon's son a pretender even though he was his father's heir after the two eldest brothers died. Not having the sword played against him. 

But what about the Blackfyres that Bittersteel crowned? He crowned Haegon, then his son, but didn't even bother giving them the sword?

The sword doesn't belong to Bittersteel. It belongs to Daemon's heirs, but it doesn't seem like any of them even got to go near it. The sword isn't mentioned at all after in the World Book after the Battle of the Redgrass Field.

If the sword is one of those symbols of power, if it was that significant for the Blackfyre cause and some sort of a rallying point for the Blackfyre supporters, then why didn't he pass it down to Haegon?

I think that something is off with this. That's why I have doubts that the sword ever left Westeros. And if it did leave Westeros as Butterwell seems to think, then I don't think it was in Bittersteel's possession for all that long. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Alexis-something-Rose

I only brought it up to clarify that we can take for granted that Bittersteel took Blackfyre with him to Essos. It's not only that Lord Butterwell says so, but also the World Book tells us of  how Aegor took the sword and used it to blind Bloodraven. If he was able to abandon safely the battlefield, we can be sure that he didn't leave the sword of kings behind.

3 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Butterwell says that Bittersteel would have given Blackfyre to Daemon if he were his father's son. He didn't. So Butterwell called Daemon "Peake's pretender." He called Daemon's son a pretender even though he was his father's heir after the two eldest brothers died. Not having the sword played against him.

Daemon II being a pretender has nothing to do with Bittersteel giving him Blackfyre or not. He was a pretender because Aerys I was sitting on the Iron Throne.

3 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The sword doesn't belong to Bittersteel. It belongs to Daemon's heirs, but it doesn't seem like any of them even got to go near it.

Some would say that the sword didn't belong to Daemon either. And many would surely claim that Bittersteel had a very good claim to the sword, since he took it from a dead man at a battlefield, surrounded by enemies and risking his own life on the process. Moreover, at the moment Daemon's eldest living child was only seven.

He could have easily kept the sword if he had wanted it, and probably he pondered doing so.

3 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

But what about the Blackfyres that Bittersteel crowned? He crowned Haegon, then his son, but didn't even bother giving them the sword?

As LV suggests upthread, it seems very likely that Bittersteel gave Blackfyre to Haegon when he crowned him. Thus, Blackfyre would be the sword that Haegon surrendered when the Third Rebellion ended.

The only other option that I find possible is that somehow Bittersteel had lost the sword before that (stolen by some Penthoshi magistrate, or lost in battle).

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

As LV suggests upthread, it seems very likely that Bittersteel gave Blackfyre to Haegon when he crowned him. Thus, Blackfyre would be the sword that Haegon surrendered when the Third Rebellion ended.

If that were the case, I think the sword would have been mentioned by name. 

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

The only other option that I find possible is that somehow Bittersteel had lost the sword before that (stolen by some Penthoshi magistrate, or lost in battle).

Or stolen back by the half-brother he hated. 

In any case, I do think there's something fishy about this. And I get that GRRM has not finished writing his story.

But the point of my OP had nothing to do with where Blackfyre is, but that "sword" in Tyrion's sample is not it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Some would say that the sword didn't belong to Daemon either.

I don't think anyone in-universe ever said that. It was King Aegon's to do whatever he wanted to do with it, and he chose to give it to Daemon. What the Targaryen people - Egg, for instance - would say is that the sword didn't mean the kingdom. But not that Aegon IV had no right to give the sword to Daemon.

12 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

And many would surely claim that Bittersteel had a very good claim to the sword, since he took it from a dead man at a battlefield, surrounded by enemies and risking his own life on the process. Moreover, at the moment Daemon's eldest living child was only seven.

Bittersteel should have given the sword to Daemon the Younger when the man got knighted/came of age. He became the Blackfyre pretender king in exile the moment his father and brothers were slain, and it is very odd that a Blackfyre loyalists would keep the main token of kingship from his Blackfyre king.

I mean, you have to keep in mind that Daemon II came of age long before he came up with his somewhat silly plan to conquer the Iron Throne. Bittersteel not supporting that is a different thing, but him apparently not supporting Daemon II's kingship in Essos is another.

9 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

If that were the case, I think the sword would have been mentioned by name. 

That is possible, but not necessarily likely because TWoIaF is deliberately written from 209-259 AC in a manner as to not really give that many big spoilers for future Dunk & Egg stories. The history of the Blackfyre sword is likely something George intended to keep until it first shows up in ASoIaF, which is very likely to happen in TWoW if it is truly in one of those chests. But the entire Third Blackfyre Rebellion is a huge question mark, meaning we are only going to learn more about that thing in another Dunk & Egg story.

There is a reason why we don't know who killed Haegon Blackfyre.

9 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

But the point of my OP had nothing to do with where Blackfyre is, but that "sword" in Tyrion's sample is not it.

There you may certainly have a point. But the idea that Blackfyre might be one of the things in those chests isn't exclusively/mainly based on the mention of 'sword' in the chapter summary, but rather also on the published chapter and the fact that Tyrion saw through the Haldon's lies. There is something more to those chests than they let on. Something they felt they had to keep from Tyrion despite the fact that guy knew they were going to Daenerys.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/16/2020 at 11:03 AM, Lord Varys said:

Regardless how things are phrased in the original report on the chapter, there is some unknown/interesting stuff in those chests. It is not what Haldon claims it is - just clothing. And they are not heavy enough for gold as Tyrion realized. Blackfyre is a very recognizable weapon, so it makes sense that they would hide it ... but it is most likely not the only thing hidden in those chests. There could also be more dragon eggs, and other Targaryen artifacts - historical crowns (the Conqueror's crown, for instance, or a replica), armor in the Targaryen colors with dragon scales, banners, etc.

;-)

Yes, agreed. GRRM intended that swoed to be Blackfyre (what else?) but decided against for reasons. Probably to not be so obvious.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We have a total of six chests.

  • Clothing for 4 people for court 
  • One of the chests was packed with child clothing, musty. So I'm assuming that those clothes were transferred from their cedar chest into the oaken one
  • Candied ginger, but that doesn't take up a lot of room
  • A chain of black iron cut with three square rubies (doesn't take up a lot of room either)
  • Gifts for Dany (we don't know what he sent her)
  • Purses of silver
  • One chest has armor

Jon Connington mentions the armor twice. I think it's a twin to the one Rhaegar wore. 

This is the inventory of the chests. A sword doesn't take up room, that's something I agree with. What I don't agree with is why a conversation Haldon is having about Dany would include Blackfyre. 

But the condescending tone of some of the replies has been really top notch. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/15/2020 at 2:09 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Yes, I am about to blaspheme.

I had never read the synopsis of Tyrion's ADwD sample chapter from 2005 until fairly recently when I was writing a post about Young Griff. I took the idea that Blackfyre was the sword implied at face value, but now that I read that synopsis, I pretty much disagree with that idea. 

It seems to me after reading this that the sword mentioned refers to a different sword;

Illyrio says he wants to give Young Griff his blessings and has a gift for him in the chests. Haldon tells him there is no time for the litter. Illyrio gets angry and says there are things Griff must know. The Golden Company has broke its contract with Myr and is riding west from the Disputed Lands. Haldon interrupts him by saying they already know this because Benerro has seen it in his fires and that the Golden Company makes for Volantis. That is why Griff needs to make haste. Illyrio says, "The dragon has three heads, there is no need for haste."
Haldon says Griff believes there is need for haste. Haldon eyes Tyrion and then begins to speak in another language. Tyrion cannot tell what it is but thinks it might be Volantene. He catches a few words that come close to High Valyrian. The words he catches are queen, dragon, and sword.

The gift has nothing to do with the mentioned sword. The gift in Tyrion III, ADwD 8, refers to the candied ginger.

"There is a gift for the boy in one of the chests. Some candied ginger. He was always fond of it."

There is no mystery is. The gift is candied ginger, something that YG may not have access to on the account that he lives on a pole boat. 

But what's interesting in this passage is the mention of Benerro. Benerro would have been introduced a lot sooner in the story in this passage. GRRM moved his timeline around and this introduction takes place in Tyrion VI instead, before Tyrion gets to see the man in the flesh in Tyrion VII, ADwD 27.

Haldon already knows the GC has broken contract with Myr because Benerro has seen it in his flames. And it's Haldon who switches from the Common Tongue to a different one and he is the one who is speaking and mentions the words that Tyrion catches, queen, dragon, and sword. This conversation actually sounds like it's about Dany and what Benerro has been saying about her.

There is no mystery about the sword. The stuff that Haldon was talking about to Illyrio, Benerro and his fires, queen, dragon and sword was moved elsewhere, to Tyrion VI, ADwD 22.

The Shy Maid arrives in Selhorys and Griff sends Haldon (and Tyrion) to find out information following the rumors Yandry heard. Dany has not left Meereen, Old Volantis is about to join the war against her. Griff sends out Haldon to Qavo. There, Haldon and Tyrion hear the preaching of a red priest.

"The priest is calling on the Volantenes to go to war," the Halfmaester told him, "but on the side of right, as soldiers of the Lord of Light, R'hllor who made the sun and stars and fights eternally against the darkness. Nyessos and Malaquo have turned away from the light, he says, their hearts darkened by the yellow harpies from the east. He says . . ."
"
Dragons. I understood that word. He said dragons."
"Aye. The dragons have come to carry her to glory."

So Tyrion here recognized one of the three words mentioned in his sample chapter. 

When Tyrion and Haldon speak with Qavo, he gives them more about Benerro. The language spoken is one that Tyrion understands.

"The red priests would be wise to hold their tongues," said Qavo Nogarys. "Already there has been fighting between their followers and those who worship other gods. Benerro's rantings will only serve to bring a savage wrath down upon his head."
"What rantings?" the dwarf asked, toying with his rabble.
The Volantene waved a hand. "In Volantis, thousands of slaves and freedmen crowd the temple plaza every night to hear Benerro shriek of bleeding stars and a sword of fire that will cleanse the world. He has been preaching that Volantis will surely burn if the triarchs take up arms against the silver queen."

I think that is the sword that GRRM was alluding to in that Tyrion chapter, the sword of fire. He was alluding to Lightbringer, the sword of fire, not Blackfyre.

Very fine argument. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/16/2020 at 2:44 AM, The hairy bear said:

We know it did. In the Mystery Knight it is confirmed that, at least by then (16 years after the Redgrass Field) the sword is on Bittersteel's hands. Lord Butterwell says: "Frey and I harbored doubts about Lord Peake's pretender since the beginning. He does not bear the sword! If he were his father's son, Bittersteel would have armed him with Blackfyre."

And that's what sets up giving the boy the sword. He's going to get the dragon (the green one) and the queen (the silver one) too. Until she kills him anyway. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/16/2020 at 8:07 AM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I know what he said. I looked up the quote before I made my post.

Butterwell says that Bittersteel would have given Blackfyre to Daemon if he were his father's son. He didn't. So Butterwell called Daemon "Peake's pretender." He called Daemon's son a pretender even though he was his father's heir after the two eldest brothers died. Not having the sword played against him. 

But what about the Blackfyres that Bittersteel crowned? He crowned Haegon, then his son, but didn't even bother giving them the sword?

The sword doesn't belong to Bittersteel. It belongs to Daemon's heirs, but it doesn't seem like any of them even got to go near it. The sword isn't mentioned at all after in the World Book after the Battle of the Redgrass Field.

If the sword is one of those symbols of power, if it was that significant for the Blackfyre cause and some sort of a rallying point for the Blackfyre supporters, then why didn't he pass it down to Haegon?

I think that something is off with this. That's why I have doubts that the sword ever left Westeros. And if it did leave Westeros as Butterwell seems to think, then I don't think it was in Bittersteel's possession for all that long. 

I wouldn't make too much out of the word pretender. It is used to describe any alternative claimant, whether the claim is valid or not. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...