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Alyn Oakenfist

Quentyn had enough dragonblood to tame a dragon

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So it's pretty clear that one requires the blood of the dragon in order to tame one. But how much? Well let's take the dragonrider that had the least amount of documented dragon blood.

Addam of Hull. Now officially he was the son of Laenor, who was the son of Rhaenya Targaryen, which is not that far removed from house Targaryen. However that story predicates on a gay man having an extramarital affair with a woman. Not very likely. So we'll go with the alternative, that they are Corlys's. In that case the first Targaryen in his genealogy (a very incest free genealogy) is at least 140 years and 5 generations behind him (Corlys, unnamed Velaryon, Daemon, Aethan, Daemon).

By comparison the last infusion of house Targaryen in Quentyn's genealogy happened with Daenaerys Targaryen, the sister of Daeron II. She married into house Martell in 180-ish, and we know that Doran's mother birthed him sometime in 240-ish. It stands to reason then that she was born in 220, or earlier, so she was probably Daenaery's granddaughter. That puts Quentyn at less the 100 years since the last infusion of dragonblood, with just 3 generations between him and his last Targryen ancestor (Doran, his mom, and the missing link between her and Daenaerys)

When comparing to Addam, it's pretty obvious Quentyn did have enough blood of the dragon to tame one. Too bad for him he tried to go for two.

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The dragons tolerated this insignificant little guy.  But that is not indicative of having even come close to taming or bonding with them.  They would have continued to tolerate him if that errant arrow had not been set loose.  I like Viserion and Rhaegal almost as much as I like Drogon.  I do not blame them for flaming this idiot boy who had thought he had the right. 

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You never know who alyn or Addams mother were. She might have been Targaryen bastard.

However velaryons do in fact come from ancient Valyria. However no one  knows when they exactly arrived at driftmark.

We can reasonably say they inter married with valyrians before the doom and after it with their targaryens and Celtigar neighbours.

The martells only married one Valyrian into their house. Whilst velaryons probably married dozens of generations. 

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2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So it's pretty clear that one requires the blood of the dragon in order to tame one.

Everyone always forgets about poor Nettles.

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8 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Everyone always forgets about poor Nettles.

Right. Nettles is a significant potential wrench in the idea that dragons only answer to Valyrian blood descendents. Being able to tame a dragon is proof of your cleverness, bravery, determination and skill in dodging flame, not necessarily of your genetics.

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Drogon would have eaten Dany if she hadn't used the whip and asserted herself. 

Quentyn tho.... 

And no racist like posts how he was not worth the blood etc. I saw similar in other threads recently and just a polite request. 

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7 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Everyone always forgets about poor Nettles.

Thing is, we don't know her genealogy. We have a decent grasp on Quentyn's and Addam's genealogy on the other hand. Nettles might have been Daemon's daughter for all we know (gross considering what happened after but still).

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14 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

The martells only married one Valyrian into their house.

Two Valyrians - Drazenko Rogare, Aegon IV's great-uncle, and Daenerys Targaryen (her grandmother, Larra Rogare, was Drazenko's niece).

Drazenko was married to Aliandra Martell (Princess of Dorne), he died in 135 AC. It's likely that the Prince of Dorne, who was present at the Submission of Sunspear in 158, was their son (he would have been 22-25 years old at that time, and fought against King Daeron I, who at that time was 14-15). He also was the father of Mariah (wife of King Daeron II Targaryen and grandmother of Aegon V) and Maron Martell (husband of Daenerys, king Daeron's sister).

Mariah and Daeron had only one child with Dornish looks - Baelor Breakspear, all their other children looked like Valyrians, that's because even though Mariah herself had Dornish looks, nevertheless she was 1/4 Valyrian (Drazenko Rogare, most likely, was her grandfather). <- It isn't confirmed in the World Book or Fire&Blood whether Drazenko and Aliandra had children prior he died, though how else could be explained the fact that Mariah Martell had children with Valyrian looks? (Maekar, Aerys and Rhaegel.)

Edited by Megorova

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4 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Thing is, we don't know her genealogy. We have a decent grasp on Quentyn's and Addam's genealogy on the other hand. Nettles might have been Daemon's daughter for all we know (gross considering what happened after but still).

I think the story pretty much indicates that she had none. The whole point of the story is that she tamed it by cunning.

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Even if every dragon rider had been Targaryen, it doesn't necessarily mean you HAVE to be Targaryen or have their blood in any capacity to tame a dragon.  I think the existence of the horn that Euron has given to Victarion (or loaned) indicates that there's more to it than simply blood or that there are more ways than one to tame a dragon. In some cases, familiarity might be enough (hence giving eggs to Targaryen babies in the cradle, in others, some people have an affinity for animals and can earn their trust (Nettles), and then possibly through magic or other binding techniques.  So, Quentyn maybe had enough blood or maybe he didn't, but his timing was his mistake.  The dragons are in no state of mind to trust ANYone and certainly not someone unfamiliar.  

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7 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

I think the story pretty much indicates that she had none. The whole point of the story is that she tamed it by cunning.

Right, the idea that genes are essential in taming animals, even magical ones, is a nonstarter for me. At the end of the day, Nettle's cunning (and eventually, perhaps, Tyrion's) in taming a dragon makes for a much better story than her (and him) secretly having the right bloodline. I also think we need to take what we are told about dragons, Targs, and Valyrian dragonblood well-salted, because it feels like a deliberate misdirection by GRRM.

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Perhaps he had the blood, or whatever, but unless your name is Samwell Tarly then this isn’t a story that favours the lonely, awkward kids

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23 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So it's pretty clear that one requires the blood of the dragon in order to tame one.

I don't think this is the case at all. The entire Dragonseed storyline and lore sounds like a parody of real world racial supremacist's to me. You tamed a dragon so you must be a Valerion :ack:  

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1 minute ago, Makk said:

I don't think this is the case at all. The entire Dragonseed storyline and lore sounds like a parody of real world racial supremacist's to me. You tamed a dragon so you must be a Valerion :ack:  

If you want a real world example check out the SS justification for the Slavic volunteers. It's hilarious insanity, things like "racial souls" and what not. Much funnier then any parody you can come up with

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8 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

I think the story pretty much indicates that she had none. The whole point of the story is that she tamed it by cunning.

Well, there's a popular theory that she was Daemon's daughter. And in any case, as a bastard commoner born at Dragonstone, it's not unlikely that she had a Valyrian ancestor in the past few generations.

It's not impossible that, as @Nathan Stark puts it, it all has been a deliberate misdirection from GRRM. But it must be admitted that there's a very strong case for some Valyrian or Targaryen blood being needed: All the dragonriders that we know are either Targaryens, seeds, or Neetles (a potential seed). And it's not for the lack of trying from people without Valyrian blood (such as Steffon Darklyn or Gormon Massey).

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1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

Well, there's a popular theory that she was Daemon's daughter. And in any case, as a bastard commoner born at Dragonstone, it's not unlikely that she had a Valyrian ancestor in the past few generations.

It's not impossible that, as @Nathan Stark puts it, it all has been a deliberate misdirection from GRRM. But it must be admitted that there's a very strong case for some Valyrian or Targaryen blood being needed: All the dragonriders that we know are either Targaryens, seeds, or Neetles (a potential seed). And it's not for the lack of trying from people without Valyrian blood (such as Steffon Darklyn or Gormon Massey).

The best reply for this has already been written:

1 hour ago, Makk said:

I don't think this is the case at all. The entire Dragonseed storyline and lore sounds like a parody of real world racial supremacist's to me. You tamed a dragon so you must be a Valerion :ack:  

 

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@CamiloRP

The author has already given to the Targaryens another 'superpower', in that many of the members of the family have prophetic dreams. And his fictional world already has established other abilities restricted to a particular race, such as the fact that only First Men can be wargs.

"I wouldn't like this theory to be true" is not a great argument against it. :P

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At the very beginning of the conception of ASOIAF, GRRM was thinking of giving pyrokinetic ability — like conjuring up flames with their minds — to the Targaryens. He had to be convinced by a friend (recently passed away - RIP) to bring the dragons in. At that point, GRRM replaced pyrokinesis with dragonriding, both being abilities related to Targaryen blood.

However, I posit that GRRM’s intention with the magic Targaryen blood ability remained the same. Both pyrokinesis and dragonriding were meant to play a key role at a later stage of the story. That is to say, Jon was going to be challenged to prove his true parentage and he would accomplish that by doing this Targaryen magic blood thing. This is what dragonriding is meant for if we get down to the basics of why GRRM introduced dragons in the first place. It is a very common trial element in hero’s journey.

As the tale grew in the telling, a lot of problems started mounting up due to associating this magic ability with Targaryen blood. I discussed all these problems extensively elsewhere. To give a brief summary, it suddenly becomes clear that almost everyone might have some Targaryen/Valyrian ancestry up there and if everyone has a certain thing, it ceases to be special. Introducing the “blood dilution” or “lucky drop” concepts does not solve anything but creates further problems. As a result, I came to believe that at some point, GRRM retconned the Targaryen blood requirement in dragonriding.

Dragonriding has always been about Jon’s parentage reveal. Any rules about dragonriding are circumstantial and are subject to change. Besides, GRRM never intended to be specific and exact in the matters of magic. One thing is for sure though. RLJ has always been the central mystery of the saga and it tramples everything.

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With all the dragonseeds one can assume they have multiple dragonlords among their ancestors, depending on the amount of bastards the Targaryens produced.

And while Addam's last Targaryen ancestors is pretty far down the family tree ... there is certainly a chance that his mother had dragonseeds among her ancestors and that the Valyrian blood of his Velaryon ancestors was strengthened by Corlys' mother and grandmother, say, being a Velaryon herself. The post-Conquest Velaryons were a pretty big family.

In light of what these folks pulled off, Quentyn definitely would have had a chance ... and he didn't fail with the dragon he tried to claim, he got attacked by a dragon he overlooked.

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