CamiloRP Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 The disappearance of Tyrek in ACOK stumps a bunch of people. Where is him? Did someone take him? Why? The obvious answer is that he's taken by whoever caused the riots, and there are two likely culprits for this deed. Varys and Littlefinger. They are both main players in the game who where absent from the riots. I think the culprit is Littlefinger, as the results of the riot benefit him greatly. - The High Septon is murder, someone LF says is difficult to deal with. - Santagar dies, and he could've known about LF's lie about the dagger. - Sansa is almost kidnapped. There's also the fact that the riot starts when a woman gets pass the Gold Cloaks. And who controls them? Also Mandon Moore isn't protecting Sansa like he should've, and he was appointed to the KG by Jon Arryn, despite the fact that he didn't like him, meaning Lysa recommended him, meaning LF probably did. (This also explains who had him try to murder Tyrion). So, LF has Tyrek, what for? Well, this idea came to me a few minutes ago when I was posting about how Sansa could be ruler of the North, the Vale and the Riverlands. She's the heir of the North, since all her siblings are believed dead. As LF's bastard (he's lord of the Riverlands) she becomes the heir to the Riverlands, which she could already put a claim for, if Edmure dies. And if she marries Harry, she's married to the heir of the Vale. But even if Harrry is never ruler of the Vale, LF has control over the other lord, who also has a claim for the Riverlands: Sweetrobin. And Tyrek will ingerit Casterly Rock. Now, succession is complicated, but the Lord of the Rock was Tywin, his heir was Jaime, until he took the white. After that it was Tyrion, but Tywin intended to skip him in succession and he's been sentenced to death, so he can't be the heir. After Tywin dies, Cersei is the Lady of Casterly Rock, but we kinda know her and all her children will die soon. After Myrcella the lord would be Kevan, but he died. Kevan had three children: Lancel, who doesn't care about any inheritance, Martyn, the current lord, and Willem, who's dead. Then the succession goes to Tygett, who's also dead, and then finally to Tyrek. In conclusion, if I was Martyn Lannister I would be fucking terrified. Did LF know this death where about to happen? Did he cause them or just 'saw' them? Or did he just hoped for them? Shouldn't he have taken Lancel? is he behind Lancel's craziness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 4 hours ago, CamiloRP said: The disappearance of Tyrek in ACOK stumps a bunch of people. Where is him? Did someone take him? Why? The obvious answer is that he's taken by whoever caused the riots, and there are two likely culprits for this deed. Varys and Littlefinger. They are both main players in the game who where absent from the riots. I think the culprit is Littlefinger, as the results of the riot benefit him greatly. - The High Septon is murder, someone LF says is difficult to deal with. - Santagar dies, and he could've known about LF's lie about the dagger. - Sansa is almost kidnapped. There's also the fact that the riot starts when a woman gets pass the Gold Cloaks. And who controls them? Also Mandon Moore isn't protecting Sansa like he should've, and he was appointed to the KG by Jon Arryn, despite the fact that he didn't like him, meaning Lysa recommended him, meaning LF probably did. (This also explains who had him try to murder Tyrion). So, LF has Tyrek, what for? Well, this idea came to me a few minutes ago when I was posting about how Sansa could be ruler of the North, the Vale and the Riverlands. She's the heir of the North, since all her siblings are believed dead. As LF's bastard (he's lord of the Riverlands) she becomes the heir to the Riverlands, which she could already put a claim for, if Edmure dies. And if she marries Harry, she's married to the heir of the Vale. But even if Harrry is never ruler of the Vale, LF has control over the other lord, who also has a claim for the Riverlands: Sweetrobin. And Tyrek will ingerit Casterly Rock. Now, succession is complicated, but the Lord of the Rock was Tywin, his heir was Jaime, until he took the white. After that it was Tyrion, but Tywin intended to skip him in succession and he's been sentenced to death, so he can't be the heir. After Tywin dies, Cersei is the Lady of Casterly Rock, but we kinda know her and all her children will die soon. After Myrcella the lord would be Kevan, but he died. Kevan had three children: Lancel, who doesn't care about any inheritance, Martyn, the current lord, and Willem, who's dead. Then the succession goes to Tygett, who's also dead, and then finally to Tyrek. In conclusion, if I was Martyn Lannister I would be fucking terrified. Did LF know this death where about to happen? Did he cause them or just 'saw' them? Or did he just hoped for them? Shouldn't he have taken Lancel? is he behind Lancel's craziness? Sorry, but no. Way too convoluted, even by LF's standards, and depends on events that occurred long afterwards. Sansa's likely fate,, had the Hound not intervened, was gang rape and/or murder. This is definitely not in LF's interest. He doesn't want her harmed or dead. At the time of the riot, Lancel was Cersei's boy toy, and I saw no disinterest in Casterly Rock. Also, Kevan and Tyrion were alive and free, and so was Willem. Tyrek was way down the list and likely to stay there. Tyrek was Robert's squire, alongside Lancel, so he may have information about him or Cersei. That could have resulted in him either deciding to flee on his own initiative, with or without help, or being put on ice by someone, most likely Varys. I do think he is most likely alive, and I will be keeping an eye out for someone matching his description, possibly in an Arya, Brienne, or Arianne chapter (none of them has met him). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canon Claude Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 I’m probably in the minority, but why can’t he just be dead? Obviously, without a body, the characters will be wondering where he is, and they’ll be trying to find him. But how many times in the real world have we had to deal with people disappearing? It happens every day. People wander off, get killed through one way or another, and their remains are never found. It’s a tragedy, but it happens. GRRM aims for the pessimistic side of reality, so why wouldn’t he just have Tyrek disappear and never come back? We certainly know of a place in Flea Bottom which has no qualms about putting human flesh into their bowls of brown, after all. Tyrek probably ended up there after his body was stripped of valuables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 Yeah, Tyrek is likely dead. It's just not realistic to think that soumeone could have planned the revolt to capture him. A starving angry mob is something impossible to control. No one, not even Littlefinger, could convince a woman to step into the path of the royal entourage holding a dead baby in order to make them stop, allowing another accomplice to forfeit his life and throw feces at the king. And then, manipulate hundreds of peasants to throw their lives away attacking armored knights with their bare hands. 12 hours ago, CamiloRP said: Sansa could be ruler of the North, the Vale and the Riverlands. She's the heir of the North, since all her siblings are believed dead. As LF's bastard (he's lord of the Riverlands) she becomes the heir to the Riverlands, which she could already put a claim for, if Edmure dies. When the riot took place, Robb was alive and Bran and Rickon were safe at Winterfell. There were no prospects of Sansa inheriting Winterfell at any point. Also, Littlefinger hadn't been made Lord Paramount of the Riverlands (and he could not predict this outcome). 12 hours ago, CamiloRP said: And Tyrek will ingerit Casterly Rock. Now, succession is complicated, but the Lord of the Rock was Tywin, his heir was Jaime, until he took the white. After that it was Tyrion, but Tywin intended to skip him in succession and he's been sentenced to death, so he can't be the heir. After Tywin dies, Cersei is the Lady of Casterly Rock, but we kinda know her and all her children will die soon. After Myrcella the lord would be Kevan, but he died. Kevan had three children: Lancel, who doesn't care about any inheritance, Martyn, the current lord, and Willem, who's dead. Then the succession goes to Tygett, who's also dead, and then finally to Tyrek. In conclusion, if I was Martyn Lannister I would be fucking terrified. We may "kinda know" that Cersei's children will die soon, but Littlefinger doesn't. Before the Blackwater, Willem's murder and the Purple Wedding, and without knowing of Maggy's prophecy, it would be absurd to bet on Tyrek inheriting the Rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 50 minutes ago, The hairy bear said: Yeah, Tyrek is likely dead. It's just not realistic to think that soumeone could have planned the revolt to capture him. A starving angry mob is something impossible to control. No one, not even Littlefinger, could convince a woman to step into the path of the royal entourage holding a dead baby in order to make them stop, allowing another accomplice to forfeit his life and throw feces at the king. And then, manipulate hundreds of peasants to throw their lives away attacking armored knights with their bare hands. I certainly agree that the riot itself was not planned. But someone could anticipate the likelihood of trouble and make plans on that basis, either to capture, or to flee or arrange flight, which is my guess. If there is trouble, great. If not, try again some other time. Obviously, there was trouble. Tyrek's gotten too much mention to simply disappear or die insignificantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canon Claude Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 32 minutes ago, Nevets said: Tyrek's gotten too much mention to simply disappear or die insignificantly. It really isn’t that much mention. The people who mention it most are his family. Of course they’re going to try and hope for his continued survival and eventual recovery. It’s realistic. I think we can all agree that GRRM has been steadily cramming more and more random and inconsequential details into these stories as a means of world building, for better or worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 Jaime found himself wondering. Tyrek had served King Robert as a squire, side by side with Lancel. Knowledge could be more valuable than gold, more deadly than a dagger. It was Varys he thought of then, smiling and smelling of lavender. The eunuch had agents and informers all over the city. It would have been a simple matter for him to arrange to have Tyrek snatched during the confusion . . . provided he knew beforehand that the mob was like to riot. And Varys knew all, or so he would have us believe. Yet he gave Cersei no warning of that riot. Nor did he ride down to the ships to see Myrcella off. 2 hours ago, The hairy bear said: A starving angry mob is something impossible to control. No one, not even Littlefinger, could convince a woman to step into the path of the royal entourage holding a dead baby in order to make them stop, allowing another accomplice to forfeit his life and throw feces at the king. And then, manipulate hundreds of peasants to throw their lives away attacking armored knights with their bare hands. During the dance they were manipulated to destroy the dragonpit in the riots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 17 hours ago, CamiloRP said: The disappearance of Tyrek in ACOK stumps a bunch of people. Where is him? Did someone take him? Why? The obvious answer is that he's taken by whoever caused the riots, and there are two likely culprits for this deed. Varys and Littlefinger. They are both main players in the game who where absent from the riots. I think the culprit is Littlefinger, as the results of the riot benefit him greatly. - The High Septon is murder, someone LF says is difficult to deal with. - Santagar dies, and he could've known about LF's lie about the dagger. - Sansa is almost kidnapped. There's also the fact that the riot starts when a woman gets pass the Gold Cloaks. And who controls them? Also Mandon Moore isn't protecting Sansa like he should've, and he was appointed to the KG by Jon Arryn, despite the fact that he didn't like him, meaning Lysa recommended him, meaning LF probably did. (This also explains who had him try to murder Tyrion). So, LF has Tyrek, what for? Well, this idea came to me a few minutes ago when I was posting about how Sansa could be ruler of the North, the Vale and the Riverlands. She's the heir of the North, since all her siblings are believed dead. As LF's bastard (he's lord of the Riverlands) she becomes the heir to the Riverlands, which she could already put a claim for, if Edmure dies. And if she marries Harry, she's married to the heir of the Vale. But even if Harrry is never ruler of the Vale, LF has control over the other lord, who also has a claim for the Riverlands: Sweetrobin. And Tyrek will ingerit Casterly Rock. Now, succession is complicated, but the Lord of the Rock was Tywin, his heir was Jaime, until he took the white. After that it was Tyrion, but Tywin intended to skip him in succession and he's been sentenced to death, so he can't be the heir. After Tywin dies, Cersei is the Lady of Casterly Rock, but we kinda know her and all her children will die soon. After Myrcella the lord would be Kevan, but he died. Kevan had three children: Lancel, who doesn't care about any inheritance, Martyn, the current lord, and Willem, who's dead. Then the succession goes to Tygett, who's also dead, and then finally to Tyrek. In conclusion, if I was Martyn Lannister I would be fucking terrified. Did LF know this death where about to happen? Did he cause them or just 'saw' them? Or did he just hoped for them? Shouldn't he have taken Lancel? is he behind Lancel's craziness? I wouldn't be the slightest bit disappointed if the riots were spontaneous, like most riots are, and that Tyrek just wound up in a bowl of brown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted December 18, 2020 Author Share Posted December 18, 2020 13 hours ago, Nevets said: Sorry, but no. Way too convoluted, even by LF's standards, and depends on events that occurred long afterwards. With this I kind of agree. Quote Sansa's likely fate,, had the Hound not intervened, was gang rape and/or murder. This is definitely not in LF's interest. He doesn't want her harmed or dead. That we don't know. We only get memories from Sandra's head, and she's a scared teenager that doesn't understand what's happening. And those memories don't have anything explicit in them. And while searching what little we know of the incident I realized that the man who tried to take her had garlic in his breath. Garlic is moderately expensive, and the riots started because of hunger. Quote At the time of the riot, Lancel was Cersei's boy toy, and I saw no disinterest in Casterly Rock. Also, Kevan and Tyrion were alive and free, and so was Willem. Tyrek was way down the list and likely to stay there. Yes. I always assumed LF took him for some other reason. But at the same time, LF was planning the murder of Tyrion. Tywin had no other heirs, and Kevan would die at a similar time as his older brother. So, for Tyrek to have a good claim he only needed to get rid of Martyn and Lancel (Cersei's possition is arguable). But this is why I'm asking, did LF knew what will happen? Did he plan for it, lie he did with Tyrion? Or did he just hope it did? Quote Tyrek was Robert's squire, alongside Lancel, so he may have information about him or Cersei. That could have resulted in him either deciding to flee on his own initiative, with or without help, or being put on ice by someone, most likely Varys. Replace Varys with LF and 'put on ice' with taken and you have what I always thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted December 18, 2020 Author Share Posted December 18, 2020 6 hours ago, The hairy bear said: When the riot took place, Robb was alive and Bran and Rickon were safe at Winterfell. There were no prospects of Sansa inheriting Winterfell at any point. Also, Littlefinger hadn't been made Lord Paramount of the Riverlands (and he could not predict this outcome). But we know he wanted Sansa anyway, he wanted her since the tourney of the hand. And he was trying to become lord of Harrenhall, he had tried with giving it Janos Slynt for absolutely no reason, then Tyrion promised it to him, and saw hunger in his eyes. All of this happened before the riot. Quote We may "kinda know" that Cersei's children will die soon, but Littlefinger doesn't. Before the Blackwater, Willem's murder and the Purple Wedding, and without knowing of Maggy's prophecy, it would be absurd to bet on Tyrek inheriting the Rock. Well, if Maggy can know some other people can too. I admit it's crackpot tho, but it's interesting to me that, if LF has Tyrek, which I think he has, LF has so many heirs of great houses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aebram Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 10 hours ago, Canon Claude said: I think we can all agree that GRRM has been steadily cramming more and more random and inconsequential details into these stories as a means of world building, for better or worse. Actually, with all due respect, I kind of feel the opposite. The books are filled with details that may seem inconsequential at first. But a thousand pages later, or maybe during a re-read, they turn out to be plot points or foreshadowings. Tyrek has been mentioned enough times that I think we can expect some kind of resolution. Yes, he may be dead; but if so, we'll probably find out who killed him. The most obvious explanation is the one from Jaime, as posted by Hugorfonics a few comments back. As Robert's squire, Tyrek may have had incriminating knowledge about Cersei; so she arranged his murder. The riot could have been triggered. It wouldn't have been necessary to pay a grieving mother to protest like that. The mood among the small folk was already pretty dark. A few paid hecklers or rock-throwers would have been enough to empower everyone else. I can see a couple of other possibilities. Remember that Tyrek's family had arranged his marriage to the infant "Lady" Ermesande of House Hayford. Maybe he was killed by someone who wanted that marriage for their own House, or who simply hated the idea of Lannisters getting it. I have my own pet theory about this. Despite his high birth, it seems that Tyrek had some tough times as a teenager. He squired for the drunken, Lannister-hating King Robert. He was forced to marry a baby, and he was mocked by his peers because of that. I think he might have simply run away. My hunch is that he had been planning this for some time, and had arranged passage on a ship for one of the Free Cities. Myrcella's farewell ceremony provided a perfect opportunity. He could slip away while everyone's attention was focused on her. Then it would be just a short walk for him to get to his ship. No one even noticed he was missing until after the riot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floki of the Ironborn Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 4 hours ago, Aebram said: My hunch is that he had been planning this for some time, and had arranged passage on a ship for one of the Free Cities. Myrcella's farewell ceremony provided a perfect opportunity. He could slip away while everyone's attention was focused on her. Then it would be just a short walk for him to get to his ship. No one even noticed he was missing until after the riot. And where did he go? Who will he end up interacting with? Maybe he's bunking up with Edric Storm and his guardians across the sea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aebram Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 Yes, it does seem like the Free Cities are Westerosis' favorite place to go when they're exiled or escaping. It's the closest place for them to go, and an easy one for them to settle in because of the similar culture, climate, etc. If Tyrek stays in Westeros, assuming he has the classic Lannister look, there would be too many chances for him to be recognized. He may have had a romantic notion of becoming a sailor, or a sellsword. He may have wanted to follow his Uncle Gerion's footsteps to Valyria, in hopes of finding his family's lost ancestral sword. Perhaps he'll meet up with Tyrion In Slaver's Bay, or Arya in Braavos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Stark Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 On 12/18/2020 at 9:23 AM, Hugorfonics said: During the dance they were manipulated to destroy the dragonpit in the riots That riot was very suspiscious in how well armed they were, with swords, spears and crossbows instead of pitchforks. I'm leaning towards that one being a planned attack disguised as a riot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackLightning Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 He may be alive but I doubt it'll be some grand plot twist or as part of GRRM's elaborate endgame. There is a good chance that he ran away or that he just simply died and his body was never recovered...which happens both in ASoIaF and real-life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad King Bolton Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 Nice thread. I think the fate of Jeyne Poole is a good indicator that Tyrek has a strong likelihood of being alive and either held or put to use elsewhere as an asset. The two most likely characters with both the ability to spirit someone away through their network, are Varys and Littlefinger. I'd wager one of them has Tyrek and simply could have removed him for a rainy day at the point of the story. Why not grab someone of value regardless of his place in the succession (look how long a game Varys has played with Aegon/Faegon?). Littlefinger grabbed Jeyne since she was a young girl who would have been discarded and got value from her, that's what resourceful people with grand schemes do. I figured he'd just be dead, but after reading the thoughts on this thread, I'll be expecting more from him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daendrew Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 In the HoBW blind Arya processes the body of a handsome lord with curly hair and three golden dragons from Westeros. That's Tyrek and I would wager 3 golden dragons in it. Arya Stark wearing Tyrek's face will infiltrate King's Landing/Casterly Rock. GRRM said we would see CR one day. I don't see Jaime going there anytime soon and Cersei would rather die than go there and leave Tommen. Jaime would go to defend it from Aegon or Stannis etc. tho. Who else could be a CR POV? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 I always thought it was just going to be a mystery we'll never get an answer to. A touch like that adds some realism to the story. Not every plot point is going to have a resolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daena the Defiant Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 1 hour ago, Daendrew said: In the HoBW blind Arya processes the body of a handsome lord with curly hair and three golden dragons from Westeros. That's Tyrek and I would wager 3 golden dragons in it. Arya Stark wearing Tyrek's face will infiltrate King's Landing/Casterly Rock. GRRM said we would see CR one day. I don't see Jaime going there anytime soon and Cersei would rather die than go there and leave Tommen. Jaime would go to defend it from Aegon or Stannis etc. tho. Who else could be a CR POV? That's........ A NEW THEORY!!! HOLY SHIT, IT'S A NEW THEORY! Thank you, thank you thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daendrew Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 16 minutes ago, Daena the Defiant said: That's........ A NEW THEORY!!! HOLY SHIT, IT'S A NEW THEORY! Thank you, thank you thank you. Lol I'm full of theories and "shit" Someone posted this theory on reddit a while ago. I retired from theory casting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.