Most people believe Ned Stark was guilty of treason

[SeanF]

On 12/22/2020 at 3:02 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Tyrion was on his way to the execution block for assassinating a king.  Janos was not guilty of treason.  He's the only one on this list who should not be executed. Tywin betrayed his king during the rebellion.

 

Janos was not guilty of treason, but he was guilty of mutiny.  His punishment was manifestly righteous.

The worst you can accuse Jon of was not giving him a court-martial, but the outcome of a court-martial would have been a sentence of death.

[Bowen 747]

On 12/22/2020 at 4:46 PM, El Guapo said:

Ned Stark did commit treason. He tried to deny Robert's son his rightful throne.  Yeah I know we readers know he is a bastard but when you are only evidence is hair color you got a pretty weak case. 

A case which he failed to prove.  And further undermined with his confession. 

[Bowen 747]

Happy New Year

[Nathan Stark]

15 minutes ago, Bowen 747 said:

A case which he failed to prove.  And further undermined with his confession. 

Practically no one in the story takes Ned's confession seriously. It is pretty much common knowledge among the nobility that Ned's confession was a failed attempt at stage management by Cersei, and the smallfolk don't care.

[Monster_Under_the_Bed]

When rereading Game of Thrones, I am realizing a lot more than before that Ned was a righteous fool. What did he hope to accomplish even if the king's children were illegitimate? There was no way to prove it and the king claimed them as his own. It was done and gift wrapped.

[Ser Leftwich]

On 12/21/2020 at 8:34 PM, Bowen 747 said:

That quote came from the first volume.  I have sympathy for Ned. I even like Ned.  This sad scene happened at Ned's public trial.  I do not think there will be much support for any Stark, full or half, south of The Neck.  Most people believe in the charges against him.  Execution is the appropriate punishment for treason.  His son's response was not appropriate.  We can argue that the Lannister reaction to Tyrion's abduction was also inappropriate.  The Lannisters won round one against the Starks.  @James West is on track to be right in his wolves opinion piece.  The Starks will be back for round 2 and they will be brutal like the savages they are.  But put all of that to the side for now.  On the question of how the public will perceive the Starks in the south, it will be negative.  I do not think any of the Starks, Jon included, will ever sit on the Iron Throne unless the whole of Westeros turns into one Zombieland of Icemen. 

@Bowen 747 Starting with the conclusion that "they will be brutal like the savages they are," before any of the 'logic' of the argument detracts from making this a real argument at all. Try again. (Your bias is showing like a thousand red flags.)

[TheLastWolf]

5 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

@Bowen 747 Starting with the conclusion that "they will be brutal like the savages they are," before any of the 'logic' of the argument detracts from making this a real argument at all. Try again. (Your bias is showing like a thousand red flags.)

Starting with his username 

[Nathan Stark]

11 hours ago, Monster_Under_the_Bed said:

When rereading Game of Thrones, I am realizing a lot more than before that Ned was a righteous fool. What did he hope to accomplish even if the king's children were illegitimate? There was no way to prove it and the king claimed them as his own. It was done and gift wrapped.

You ought to reread the parts where Ned meets Gendry, who looks just like Robert, and baby Barra, who looks just like Robert, along with Cat meeting Mya Stone, who looks just like Robert. Then compare these children of Robert's loins to his supposed "legitimate" children, who look just like Lannisters. There's your proof. It is spelled out for us in the text. Stannis even takes another of Robert's bastards to prove his own case against Joffrey. Ned got his confession from Cersei in the Godswood. So, righteous fool? No, you ought to do another reread.

[El Guapo]

1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

You ought to reread the parts where Ned meets Gendry, who looks just like Robert, and baby Barra, who looks just like Robert, along with Cat meeting Mya Stone, who looks just like Robert. Then compare these children of Robert's loins to his supposed "legitimate" children, who look just like Lannisters. There's your proof. It is spelled out for us in the text. Stannis even takes another of Robert's bastards to prove his own case against Joffrey. Ned got his confession from Cersei in the Godswood. So, righteous fool? No, you ought to do another reread.

That not proof. And using this argument you could say that half of Ned's children look like Tullys and therefore not his kids.

[frenin]

14 hours ago, Monster_Under_the_Bed said:

When rereading Game of Thrones, I am realizing a lot more than before that Ned was a righteous fool. What did he hope to accomplish even if the king's children were illegitimate? There was no way to prove it and the king claimed them as his own. It was done and gift wrapped.

He sure as hell could prove it. He had the tools and he had Robert's trust to pull it off.

What i don't think he could prove is that Ceresi cheated with Jaime. But he could have certainly convince everyone that the children weren't Robert's. 

 

47 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

That not proof. And using this argument you could say that half of Ned's children look like Tullys and therefore not his kids.

It's evidence tho, albeit circumstantial 

The same counterargument and it has never made sense. Unless there has been other Stark-Tully matches in the past in which all the kids looked like a Stark, the comparison is nothing but absurd.

The case is not only that Robert's bastards look like him and his children not. There has been several Lannister-Baratheon matches in the past, all of the the children were noted to favor the Baratheons, Robert had bastards different color haired women and they all still gave birth to Robert's clones,  hell Gendry looks resembles him so much that Brienne became convinced in an instant.

While it is plausible that Cersei that one of the children looked like Cersei, given all circumstantial evidence it's certainly impossible to draw other conclusion than the children had not been fathered by Robert.

As Varys says.

 

Quote

"Robert's bastards? What of them?"
"He fathered eight, to the best of my knowing," Varys said as he wrestled with the saddle. "Their mothers were copper and honey, chestnut and butter, yet the babes were all black as ravens . . . and as ill-omened, it would seem. So when Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen slid out between your sister's thighs, each as golden as the sun, the truth was not hard to glimpse."
Tyrion shook his head. If she had borne only one child for her husband, it would have been enough to disarm suspicion . . . but then she would not have been Cersei. 

 

[Nathan Stark]

2 hours ago, El Guapo said:

That not proof. And using this argument you could say that half of Ned's children look like Tullys and therefore not his kids.

There's only the one Stark/Tully marriage. There are a few Baratheon/Lannister marriages throughout history. And all of them produced children with the Baratheon coloring. This was the whole point of Ned reading that book recording family lineage. So yes, it is proof. Not to mention that Cersei confessed to her children being bastards. That's even stronger proof.

[El Guapo]

1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

There's only the one Stark/Tully marriage. There are a few Baratheon/Lannister marriages throughout history. And all of them produced children with the Baratheon coloring. This was the whole point of Ned reading that book recording family lineage. So yes, it is proof. Not to mention that Cersei confessed to her children being bastards. That's even stronger proof.

Good luck getting Cersei to admit that in front of the realm. lol

[Rose of Red Lake]

18 hours ago, Monster_Under_the_Bed said:

When rereading Game of Thrones, I am realizing a lot more than before that Ned was a righteous fool. What did he hope to accomplish even if the king's children were illegitimate? There was no way to prove it and the king claimed them as his own. It was done and gift wrapped.

He, of all people should know about the dangers of exposing a secret parentage.

[Nathan Stark]

3 hours ago, El Guapo said:

Good luck getting Cersei to admit that in front of the realm. lol

The realm pretty much already knows at this point.

[Monster_Under_the_Bed]

1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

The realm pretty much already knows at this point.

All the more argument that what Ned was doing was foolish. If half the realm knew, then Robert knew as well. He simply chose to block it out. Ned was never going to accomplish anything other than bring down disaster on his family by putting these things in the spotlight.

[frenin]

8 hours ago, El Guapo said:

Good luck getting Cersei to admit that in front of the realm. lol

It really doesn't matter what Cersei says or doesn't.

What matters is whether Ned can create a plausible argument to convince  Robert and the Realm... And he sure as hell can. Hell, the Blackfyre Rebellion was based on that with absolutely no evidence whatsoever.

 

 

5 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

The realm pretty much already knows at this point.

It's an open rumor, not so much of an open knowledge. Like Stannis's and Patchface or the Unworthy and Daeron the good.

 

5 hours ago, Monster_Under_the_Bed said:

If half the realm knew, then Robert knew as well. 

Robert didn't know. The rumor didn't spread until Stannis did it in ACOK.

 

5 hours ago, Monster_Under_the_Bed said:

Ned was never going to accomplish anything other than bring down disaster on his family by putting these things in the spotlight.

Well not true. Had he told Robert, he would be fine. Had he acted after being confirmed as regent, he would be fine. Had Petyr backed him as he promised, he would've been fine.

[broken one]

On 12/22/2020 at 6:54 AM, SeanF said:

Tyrion

Not telling Robert about J, T & M origins, I think it may fall under treason. I cannot recall anything else that might justify sending him to the block.

20 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

You ought to reread the parts where Ned meets Gendry, who looks just like Robert, and baby Barra, who looks just like Robert, along with Cat meeting Mya Stone, who looks just like Robert. Then compare these children of Robert's loins to his supposed "legitimate" children, who look just like Lannisters. There's your proof. It is spelled out for us in the text. Stannis even takes another of Robert's bastards to prove his own case against Joffrey. Ned got his confession from Cersei in the Godswood. So, righteous fool? No, you ought to do another reread.

Problem is this "genetics" applies only to Bobby. It is the weakest part of the plot imho, maybe this is why I find it hard to convince myself that Edd could have made any use of this information after Robert had died and Renly left. Of course he was right and he was not a traitor, but he made big mistake. He should have told Robert, or done what Renly suggested, or nothing.

 

[X-Buster]

On 12/22/2020 at 4:46 PM, El Guapo said:

Ned Stark did commit treason. He tried to deny Robert's son his rightful throne.  Yeah I know we readers know he is a bastard but when you are only evidence is hair color you got a pretty weak case. 

It may create doubt in the minds of some people but it's not enough to be convincing. The children look like Jaime because their mother looks like him.  It's easy to discredit.