Will Daenaerys be more Maegor or Jaehaerys

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

5 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Emphasis on the threat

Okay?

First of all, threatening someone and their entire homeland with utter annihilations by dragonfire is pretty damn serious. It's not a schoolyard threat. It's bigger than your run-of-the-mill death threat.

Second of all, threats are meaningless (and self-destructive) unless you are capable and willing to follow through. They are like promises.

Jaehaerys made himself very clear. He was willing and capable.

The same thing applies to Rhaena, Visenya, Aegon the Conqueror, etc.

True. I never said Jaehaerys was a great compassionate guy, and heck if you are unwilling to use dragons against your enemies then you're basically Aenys I.

The major difference between Jaehaerys and Maegor, and the two paths Dany can take, is whether to  use the dragons more as intimidation, actually using them only when it's necessary, or to use them for whatever problem you have, going for the "when you have a hammer everything becomes a nail" logic of dragon use.

[BlackLightning]

Just now, Alyn Oakenfist said:

True. I never said Jaehaerys was a great compassionate guy, and heck if you are unwilling to use dragons against your enemies then you're basically Aenys I.

The major difference between Jaehaerys and Maegor, and the two paths Dany can take, is whether to  use the dragons more as intimidation, actually using them only when it's necessary, or to use them for whatever problem you have, going for the "when you have a hammer everything becomes a nail" logic of dragon use.

There's the rub.

Maegor's use of dragons wasn't necessarily a problem. Arguably, if you want to preserve the Targaryen dynasty and someone like Aenys I is your predecessor, you need to turn it up a few notches. He was right to take a stand against the Faith. He was not wrong in threatening Oldtown with dragonfire.

Where he ultimately went wrong was the way he treated his own family.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

Just now, BlackLightning said:

There's the rub.

Maegor's use of dragons wasn't necessarily a problem. Arguably, if you want to preserve the Targaryen dynasty and someone like Aenys I is your predecessor, you need to turn it up a few notches. He was right to take a stand against the Faith. He was not wrong in threatening Oldtown with dragonfire.

Where he ultimately went wrong was the way he treated his own family.

Not really.

Burning down the Sept of Remembrance was a big mistake. After the Trial by Seven he had the propaganda and and theological upper hand, only to squander it by burning down the Sept. That was his first case of using dragons very poorly.

Then there was his attempt to burn Oldtown. Had he not lucked out with the High Septon getting murdered dying he would have been responsible for a crime that would make Dumbass and Debrained jizz their pants.

Finally his campaigns to root out the Faith Militant with Fire and Blood (and Balerion) went about as well as you'd expect.

Now of course Maegor shit the bed in a lot more not dragon related ways, but his use of dragons, was the best example of the fire and blood confrontational way he ruled

[BlackLightning]

Just now, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Not really.

Burning down the Sept of Remembrance was a big mistake. After the Trial by Seven he had the propaganda and and theological upper hand, only to squander it by burning down the Sept. That was his first case of using dragons very poorly.

Then there was his attempt to burn Oldtown. Had he not lucked out with the High Septon getting murdered dying he would have been responsible for a crime that would make Dumbass and Debrained jizz their pants.

Finally his campaigns to root out the Faith Militant with Fire and Blood (and Balerion) went about as well as you'd expect.

Now of course Maegor shit the bed in a lot more not dragon related ways, but his use of dragons, was the best example of the fire and blood confrontational way he ruled

Yeah you're right.

Burning the Sept of Remembrance was very unnecessary. Bad move.

I have to review the circumstances of the Oldtown crisis. But you're probably right on that too.

[Rose of Red Lake]

That Oldtown stuff was wild. Oldtown is only standing now because of a fluke. All those books, up in flames (you know that would piss GRRM off). Maegor and Mom - so two dragons. It really showed how everyone in Westeros is at Targaryen mercy which is why I fucking hate this House. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

10 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

That Oldtown stuff was wild. Oldtown is only standing now because of a fluke. All those books, up in flames (you know that would piss GRRM off). Maegor and Mom - so two dragons. It really showed how everyone in Westeros is at Targaryen mercy which is why I fucking hate this House. 

Yeah that's the problem with rulership by dragon, you're basically playing Russian roulette with the lives of everyone at the line.

However I don't really hold that against House Targaryen, more against dragonriders, I mean I hope Jon or a dragonless Dany will be King/Queen by the end (or maybe both)

[SeanF]

22 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Only once and even then in self defense. No one but the Dornish batted an eye at that.

Various Targaryens used them against pirate fleets.  As with any weapon, there’s nothing right or wrong about the use of dragons per se.  What matters is whether their use is proportionate to the threat you face.  Using them against rioters is disproportionate.  Using them against an invasion fleet is legitimate.

[Aline de Gavrillac]

On 12/25/2020 at 4:27 PM, BlackLightning said:

Neither. I think Daenerys will more like Aegon the Unlikely, Daeron the Young Dragon, Baelor the Blessed and Daeron the Good if all of them had dragons.

Daenerys as a character seems like a fusion of Visenya (tough warrior-queen, polarizing) and Aegon the Unlikely (lover and protector of the downtrodden and the lowborn). Both characters are closely linked with magic.

If I had to choose one out of the two, Daenerys leans heavily in the direction of Jaehaerys.

Daenerys knows that kinslaying is wrong. She wistfully thinks of Aegon and would be glad to know that she isn't alone in the world anymore. And she wouldn't make a move against Aegon until she knows that he is fake and/or dangerous.

The threat was always there. Jaehaerys went so far as to threaten the Sealord and all of Braavos with utter annihilation.

 

 

Agree.  Aegon will be influenced by Arrianne Martell and her family.  Their way of thinking is, unfortunately, not going to lead to the right conditions for survival.  The circle of revenge will just go round and round.  Ellaria is the single voice of reason but she will not be heard in Dorne.  Fortunately, Geris and Arch have sworn their swords to Queen Daenerys Targaryen.  It may be time to replace the Martells with a family which will be more manageable. 

Daenerys take after Aegon, Jaeherys, and Allysanne.  She can be all of them because she chooses to.  Barristan, Tyrion, and Marwyn will be in Meereen.  Victarion will too.  I am hoping Gillie and little Mance make it to Meereen.  Daenerys will have all of the information she needs concerning the conditions in Westeros from them.  She cares deeply for the slaves and freedmen though.  I do not think she will make her arrival until the conditions in Westeros have gone totally screwed.  I would not expect her to go to Westeros until the last book.  She has a lot of important matters to attend to in Essos.  I am not sold on a second dance of the dragons happening.  We've had that already and have even a novella about the dance.  It just seems repetitive to me. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

Jaehaerys and his sons burning a Dornish Prince and his ships resolved a rebellion quickly but this goes against the themes the text is presenting about dragons. They can win wars but they can't bring peace or stop the chain of events that lead to more war, in fact they more often just exacerbate them. The Fourth Dornish war wasn't the last and Dorne was burning hot for many years after that. I think the books are trying to show that the efforts to bring Dorne into the realm peacefully with Baelor and Daeron were more significant than anything a dragon-rider did.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

33 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Jaehaerys and his sons burning a Dornish Prince and his ships resolved a rebellion quickly but this goes against the themes the text is presenting about dragons. They can win wars but they can't bring peace or stop the chain of events that lead to more war, in fact they more often just exacerbate them. The Fourth Dornish war wasn't the last and Dorne was burning hot for many years after that. I think the books are trying to show that the efforts to bring Dorne into the realm peacefully with Baelor and Daeron were more significant than anything a dragon-rider did.

I agree, that plot point seems forced, it goes against the themes of the story, and it goes against basic common sense. Who is going to lead flammable wooden ships to attack a country led by dragonriders?

It also negates the point of Jaehaerys's story that dragons are only good to be used for detterence

[Rose of Red Lake]

33 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I agree, that plot point seems forced, it goes against the themes of the story, and it goes against basic common sense. Who is going to lead flammable wooden ships to attack a country led by dragonriders?

It also negates the point of Jaehaerys's story that dragons are only good to be used for detterence

My guess is, that because he used dragons, relations with Dorne weren't improved by his intervention. I think that could have been emphasized a bit more though. Maybe GRRM will be showing this in F&B Part 2 in the aftermath of that war and leading into the next. I mean, they will have had five wars at this point...

Dorne is usually pretty smart when it comes to resisting Targaryen rule. I think since he wanted to show Jaehaerys as the somewhat "smarter" king, other kingdoms had to look dumber.

[300 H&H Magnum]

On 12/25/2020 at 12:01 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I wasn't trying to control anything, I was just curious. I do mostly agree, but especially by TWOW I can see some slight more Maegor-esque elements in relation to how she uses dragons. But there is clearly also that very strong Jaehaerys like part of her that cares about her subjects and is willing to negotiate and compromise for them.

Maegor is to the Targaryens as Theon the hungry wolf is to the Starks.  The family was being threatened and they got rid of that threat.  To say Dany has a bit of Maegor is to say Jon has some Theon the hungry wolf in him. 

[TheLastWolf]

46 minutes ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Maegor is to the Targaryens as Theon the hungry wolf is to the Starks.  The family was being threatened and they got rid of that threat.  To say Dany has a bit of Maegor is to say Jon has some Theon the hungry wolf in him. 

Is that all what every hater says? They throw in Aegon the Unworthy, Boltons, Walder Frey, Maegor, Aerion etc and all for spice. He's stupid incompetent. But that contradicts their accusations of evil savage cunning genius. And so on