Cersei is more sympathetic then Robert

[Daena the Defiant]

10 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

She is also a psycho that indulged at incest, tortured her baby brother, killed her best friend when she was ten, killed two of Robert's bastards for pride, sold the mother to slavery, send countless people to be torture by a maniac, and raised another psychopath in Joffrey. Cersei is just as awful as Ramsey, she  just doesn't do the job herself.

Being a woman, is not the same of being incapable, Cersei just can't handle power, Ned trusted Catelyn to rule the north when he left, Ladies like Oakhearth, Dustin, Hornwood and Whent rule in their own name. Olenna and Margeary seems very ok, Asha is capable of projecting herself in a much more chauvinistic culture, Cersei is just a psycho that sees herself above the rules, and it's to dumb to think of the consequences of her actions.

Don't forget she gave her handmaidens and attendants to be used in medical experimentations, and .... there's always this gem of an episode of how a woman in a position of authority should inspire service and loyalty:

"That work can wait," Tyrion said. "The chain first."

"M'lord, begging your pardon, Her Grace said those as didn't meet their numbers would have their hands crushed," the anxious smith persisted. "Smashed on their own anvils, she said."

 

[Rose of Red Lake]

Their crushes both left them and then hooked up. They really should have bonded over this.

[BlackLightning]

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Their crushes both left them and then hooked up. They really should have bonded over this.

I agree. It's all very sad.

They could've actually been a really good match for each other if they both could just get over themselves.

One of my favorite TV show exclusive scenes in the TV show (and a scene that should've or should be in the books) is the conversation Robert and Cersei had about Ned Stark, Daenerys Targaryen and the political framework of the Seven Kingdoms.

AMAZING SCENE. It touched up on the tragedy and sympathy of those two.

 

As for the topic, I have to disagree. At first blush, yes Cersei is more sympathetic. But by the time we get to A Feast for Crows, I'm going to go with a hard "NO."

[Tibbs]

It's worth pointing out that, although Cersei's hatred for Robert is foregrounded in how terrible a human being he was and how he mistreated her, she reflects in passing to herself that she had never forgiven him for killing Rhaegar. While I'd certainly never claim that Robert was anything less than horrible, I think the balance of information indicates that Robert, in the early years, made some good faith effort to make the marriage work. Cersei herself tells us that he used to ask her to come hunting with him -- maybe not a great bonding activity since she doesn't care about hunting, but still, an effort from Robert. 

 

If, on the other hand, she never forgave him for killing Rhaegar, I'd argue that that puts a smidgen more culpability on her shoulders for the ultimate failure of their relationship. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

56 minutes ago, Tibbs said:

If, on the other hand, she never forgave him for killing Rhaegar, I'd argue that that puts a smidgen more culpability on her shoulders for the ultimate failure of their relationship. 

Uhh, how shall I put this, he is a rapist. Functional relationship or not, he's still the only one to blame for that.

[Darth Sidious]

On 12/26/2020 at 5:18 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So until AFFC my opinion of Robert was that he seemed a decent enough fellow for Westeros slowly poisoned by bitterness but with a good side still remaining. After AFFC thought, I firmly put him at the bottom of my character list, over Aerys, Roose, Ramsay and Walder, thought not by much. Being bitter about his lot in life and being unhappy with his wife is one thing. Raping her is quite another. I mean shit, I get Cersei wanting to cuckhold him, heck she was justified in doing it to him. So am I the only one that after AFFC is more sympathetic to Cersei then Robert?

Cersei was mean as a child.  She did not grow out of that trait.  Robert was a big fool but not mean.  Cersei is smarter but Robert had the better heart. I would change my mind if proof of southern ambitions is given in the future.

[The Young Maester]

39 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Uhh, how shall I put this, he is a rapist. Functional relationship or not, he's still the only one to blame for that.

The evidence we get of rape are all from Cersei’s POV. For it be rape she most have resisted physically. I very much doubt she actually tried to do that. Robert definitely hurt her during their early years of marriage. Cersei likes to say he rapes her because she can’t stand him trying to fuck her. She only wants Jamie, and she only wants to sleep with whom she wants to sleep with (lancel, kettleblack, moo boy?). She’s prideful.

[Sigella]

18 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Cersei is a full blow psychopath without any limits, Robert is just a massive jerk, that drinks and gets agressive.

 

Nope. If she had been she wouldn't have felt nauseus/soiled after seeing Qyburn at work. You can be cruel and not a psychpath. Feeling bad about shit rules it out.

 

To the Op:  Granted Robert isn't as cruel as Cersei but his leniency and pig-headed-ostrich-behaviours causes nasty situations too. It's like he is a shit person trying to be as good as Jon Arryn tried to raise him, while Cersei was raised by Tywin who wouldn't know empathy if it slapped him in the face.

[Lord of Oldstones]

Sorry just NO!

Robert was too self indulging and a bad ruler. But, he was never cruel like the Lannister woman.Cersei is mean,cruel  and very selfish from the childhood. There's nothing to sympathize with her.

And Robert was another man before his Kingship,able to inspire friendship and loyalty. 

 

[Lion of the West]

10 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

We also have queens that ruled besides her husbands and were capable enough.

The biggest examples are probably Viseny, Alyssa Velaryon and Alysanne. Cersei is just a awful ruler, her mistakes have little to do with her gender.

Again, as consorts and not as the ruling queen. We only have two women ruling at the top over a united Westeros and those are Rhaenyra and Cersei, neither came off very well.

My comment is that without being prepared for ruling and given the ability to observe and learn means that you are much less likely to succeed than if you had been given prior preparation for the position.

My point isn't about Cersei's lack morality, but that her failure as a ruler is more likely to come from a lack of training and preparation for that role than from a morale failure. If morality was the determination for competence at rule then the Unworthy wouldn't have lasted a year.

[Rose of Red Lake]

1 hour ago, Lion of the West said:

My point isn't about Cersei's lack morality, but that her failure as a ruler is more likely to come from a lack of training and preparation for that role than from a morale failure. If morality was the determination for competence at rule then the Unworthy wouldn't have lasted a year.

I think most of the time, she successfully imitates Tywin. Tywin's actions on a woman look "arrogant" and "power hungry" but on a man look "confident" and "measured."  Both bungle things up, too, about the same rate. Cersei's fuck-up with the faith is about the same as Tywin's fuck-up with Elia.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On 12/26/2020 at 5:18 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So until AFFC my opinion of Robert was that he seemed a decent enough fellow for Westeros slowly poisoned by bitterness but with a good side still remaining. After AFFC thought, I firmly put him at the bottom of my character list, over Aerys, Roose, Ramsay and Walder, thought not by much. Being bitter about his lot in life and being unhappy with his wife is one thing. Raping her is quite another. I mean shit, I get Cersei wanting to cuckhold him, heck she was justified in doing it to him. So am I the only one that after AFFC is more sympathetic to Cersei then Robert?

Most people have already made their minds up on how they fell about Robert and Cercei I my personal feeling about Robert flows from AGoT , that is when Robert was alive .

Do I find her more sympathetic than Robert ? No . 

[The Sleeper]

35 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think most of the time, she successfully imitates Tywin. Tywin's actions on a woman look "arrogant" and "power hungry" but on a man look "confident" and "measured."  Both bungle things up, too, about the same rate. Cersei's fuck-up with the faith is about the same as Tywin's fuck-up with Elia.

I agree for the most part. Tywin is more pragmatic and patient, but that is only to be expected as Cersei has spent most her time in the isolated environment of the courts and never had the burden of actually ruling until recently. Both make disastrous errors in judgement and for the same reasons. 

[Arthur Peres]

6 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

Again, as consorts and not as the ruling queen. We only have two women ruling at the top over a united Westeros and those are Rhaenyra and Cersei, neither came off very well.

 

Cersei does not rule in her own name, she is a regent, and was a consort before it. The fact that she failed to realize her position is just another point against her.

both Cersei and Rhaenyra failures were not because of their gender, they completly screwed up and turned to population of KL against them, failed to support their ally, and let internal fight cripple their power base, they both were idiots that messed up the sucession line by poping up bastards trying to pass them as legit, so on and on. They failures has nothing to do with gender, just incompetence.

 

6 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

My comment is that without being prepared for ruling and given the ability to observe and learn means that you are much less likely to succeed than if you had been given prior preparation for the position.

 

Rhaenyra was prepared and raised as heir, and still messed up. Aegon III and Aegon V were not raised as such and did a much better job. No amount of preparations would be enough to make Cersei someone capable, we are in her head and the process of her making a decision is completly twisted and drived by ego.

6 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

My point isn't about Cersei's lack morality, but that her failure as a ruler is more likely to come from a lack of training and preparation for that role than from a morale failure. If morality was the determination for competence at rule then the Unworthy wouldn't have lasted a year.

One point is conected to the other. Roose has no morals, but he know when to act, Ramsey on the other hand is like Cersei, a mindless beast that sees everything around him as a insult and goes way over the top to compensate for their status (bastard/woman).

Aegon IV as a idiot that he was, still didn't piss of half the kingdom against him. Cersei made Renly feels to threatned by her that he rebelled, she and her bastards turned the Starks and Stannis against her, her actions against the Tyrells only served to erode even more her rule, and there is also the situation with the Iron bank, and her stupid plot to get Tristan killed... she directly pissed off the North, Dorne, Stomlands, Reach and the Iron bank, this is on her, and nobody else.

[Arthur Peres]

11 hours ago, Sigella said:

Nope. If she had been she wouldn't have felt nauseus/soiled after seeing Qyburn at work. You can be cruel and not a psychpath. Feeling bad about shit rules it out.

 

Let's see what makes a psycho then:

Psychopathy is characterized by diagnostic features such as superficial charm, high intelligence, poor judgment and failure to learn from experience, pathological egocentricity and incapacity for love, lack of remorse or shame, impulsivity, grandiose sense of self-worth, pathological lying, manipulative behavior, poor self-control, promiscuous sexual behavior, juvenile delinquency, and criminal versatility, among others

source: https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/hidden-suffering-psychopath

Cersei checks on most, if not everything that is listed there.

[TheLastWolf]

9 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Cersei checks on most, if not everything that is listed there

She's not a psycho since she has more than all the characteristics required to be one and more. So she's Cruella DeVill. 

[frenin]

9 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

Again, as consorts and not as the ruling queen. We only have two women ruling at the top over a united Westeros and those are Rhaenyra and Cersei, neither came off very well.

Visenya and Rhaenys ruled on their own.  The queens that came after them didn't.

 

14 hours ago, Sigella said:

Nope. If she had been she wouldn't have felt nauseus/soiled after seeing Qyburn at work. You can be cruel and not a psychpath. Feeling bad about shit rules it out.

People use too lightly that word

 

14 hours ago, Sigella said:

while Cersei was raised by Tywin who wouldn't know empathy if it slapped him in the face.

I very much doubt she was raised by Tywin,  Her mother was alive till she was 12 and after that she saw her father at times.

 

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Cersei checks on most, if not everything that is listed there.

She truly doesn't. Cersei is a horrible person without having to compare her with a psycho.

She's afraid, she loves, she's remorseful. Only by this, she already isn't.

 her only sexual companion for almost 20 years was Jaime etc etc.

Most of the rest of her checks is due to trying  to imitate her father.

 

To OP... You're entitled to your opinion, both are pretty shitty people, so that's that.

 

 

 

[LynnS]

Cersei is a malignant narcissist.  She can only put on a show of caring for others in order to manipulate them for her own purposes.  She is devoid on any true empathy.  

[Alyn Oakenfist]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Cersei is a malignant narcissist.  She can only put on a show of caring for others in order to manipulate them for her own purposes.  She is devoid on any true empathy.  

Where as Robert is absolutely brimming with empathy, ranging from 1 year olds in the crib to pregnant teenagers

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Where as Robert is absolutely brimming with empathy, ranging from 1 year olds in the crib to pregnant teenagers

Yes he's a bacchus-like character, somebody who should never have been king.  We don't have a lot about his inner thoughts but we do have Cersei's POV.  I'm a lot less sympathetic to her including making Joffrey into the psychopath he turned out to be.