Jump to content

Cersei is more sympathetic then Robert


Alyn Oakenfist

Recommended Posts

49 minutes ago, frenin said:

She truly doesn't. Cersei is a horrible person without having to compare her with a psycho.

She's afraid, she loves, she's remorseful. Only by this, she already isn't.

 her only sexual companion for almost 20 years was Jaime etc etc.

Most of the rest of her checks is due to trying  to imitate her father.

superficial charm> check, Sansa is the main victm of this.

high intelligence> not check

 poor judgment and failure to learn from experience> super check, Cersei is probably the biggest example of poor judment from the books, she also failed to learn from experience as she kept making one enemy after another, the biggest example is she allowing the faith to take arms again ignoring all precendents.

pathological egocentricity >check, she sees herself as capable, and has a sense of grandiose.

and incapacity for love > debatable, the only person I get the feeling she loved was Joffrey, the moment Jaime questioned her she sends him away, she was not loyal to him, he was just her "yes ma'am". She is incapable of emphaty as she mocked Lady Stokeworth that was a rape victim, 

lack of remorse or shame> check, Cersei never show regret over the horrible things she did.

impulsivity >check, going after Arya after the incident in Darry was a very stupid decision, drived only by her impulsivity.

grandiose sense of self-worth > super check, There is a need to debate this(2) ?

pathological lying> check, you can say it for necessity, but she was the one that putted herself in such situation.

 manipulative behavior>check, she uses Jaime, Lancel, Kettleblack brothers, Sansa are all prove of this

poor self-control> check, she and jaime having sex at Winterfell is proof of this,

 promiscuous sexual behavior> check, queen of whores speaks for itself.

 juvenile delinquency and criminal versatility> check. was a murder before 10, sell woman to slavery, kidnaping, torture and the list goes on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think most of the time, she successfully imitates Tywin. Tywin's actions on a woman look "arrogant" and "power hungry" but on a man look "confident" and "measured."  Both bungle things up, too, about the same rate. Cersei's fuck-up with the faith is about the same as Tywin's fuck-up with Elia.

No, they do not. To start with you are right in the how the same actions, personality traits etc. are view differently when done or possessed by a man or a woman. You are however wrong, in my opinion, in that Tywin and Cersei screw things up to the same degree. Cersei got herself arrested, shamed and more while Tywin's feud with the Martells lead to, about nothing, for Tywin.

4 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Cersei does not rule in her own name, she is a regent, and was a consort before it. The fact that she failed to realize her position is just another point against her.

You are right in that she does not rule in her own name. Bad and wrong choice of words by me. You will however note that as regent there's no superior to tell her "No." when she wants to do something and to whom she must listen. And like I said, unlike Catelyn who was Hosters heir and unlike Rhaenyra who was her father's heir, Cersei never got any preparation to rule. And I think that has more to do with her failure than her morality.

4 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

both Cersei and Rhaenyra failures were not because of their gender, they completly screwed up and turned to population of KL against them, failed to support their ally, and let internal fight cripple their power base, they both were idiots that messed up the sucession line by poping up bastards trying to pass them as legit, so on and on. They failures has nothing to do with gender, just incompetence.

Neither have I claimed that their gender was the sole reason they fell. But I do note that there have been two women ruling "alone" as regent or queen on the top in Westeros. And both of them didn't have very happy reigns.

4 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Rhaenyra was prepared and raised as heir, and still messed up. Aegon III and Aegon V were not raised as such and did a much better job. No amount of preparations would be enough to make Cersei someone capable, we are in her head and the process of her making a decision is completly twisted and drived by ego.

This is actually wrong. Aegon III spent many years in the Red Keep and had, to my knowledge, many loyal regents in the council from whom Aegon III could learn before he took the throne. Aegon III had, unless some miracelous retcon is done, many years to get ready to rule. Cersei didn't. And in general I revolt against the stupidous idea that education/training and experience is unimportant while talent is all important to manage to do something.

4 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

One point is conected to the other. Roose has no morals, but he know when to act, Ramsey on the other hand is like Cersei, a mindless beast that sees everything around him as a insult and goes way over the top to compensate for their status (bastard/woman).

This is wrong. Daeron the Good couldn't stop the Blackfyre Rebellion, Bloodraven (who isn't a very nice person) did, King Aenys couldn't keep the realm together or defeat the Faith, Maegor (who wasn't a very nice person) could and got the Faith ready for a peaceful solution and finally Robb Stark couldn't keep his kingdom together and his reputation has only been saved by the Red Wedding.

Do you see a trend in how good natured people don't automatically succeed as rulers?

4 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Aegon IV as a idiot that he was, still didn't piss of half the kingdom against him. Cersei made Renly feels to threatned by her that he rebelled, she and her bastards turned the Starks and Stannis against her, her actions against the Tyrells only served to erode even more her rule, and there is also the situation with the Iron bank, and her stupid plot to get Tristan killed... she directly pissed off the North, Dorne, Stomlands, Reach and the Iron bank, this is on her, and nobody else.

I am not arguing against the facts. I argue that because Tywin never took Cersei to this councils or trained her to rule and so, she never learned important lessons about ruling. She could have screwed it up anyway, but without training she was guaranteed to screw it up.

4 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Let's see what makes a psycho then:

Psychopathy is characterized by diagnostic features such as superficial charm, high intelligence, poor judgment and failure to learn from experience, pathological egocentricity and incapacity for love, lack of remorse or shame, impulsivity, grandiose sense of self-worth, pathological lying, manipulative behavior, poor self-control, promiscuous sexual behavior, juvenile delinquency, and criminal versatility, among others

source: https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/hidden-suffering-psychopath

Cersei checks on most, if not everything that is listed there.

What a load of BS. A diagnosis of psycopathy is done by a professional who has the education to do so and not by a check list on the internet.

49 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Cersei is a malignant narcissist.  She can only put on a show of caring for others in order to manipulate them for her own purposes.  She is devoid on any true empathy.  

Can you define "true empathy" as opposed to "false empathy"? I would like an authoritan definition so that I can understand this, and other, arguments better.

37 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes he's a bacchus-like character, somebody who should never have been king.  We don't have a lot about his inner thoughts but we do have Cersei's POV.  I'm a lot less sympathetic to her including making Joffrey into the psychopath he turned out to be.  

See my answer to Arthur Peres but insert a professional on "child psychology" instead to determine if Joffrey is psycopath or not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Arthur Peres

This is annoying. I disagree with almost all but let's cut to the chase.

 

46 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

lack of remorse or shame> check, Cersei never show regret over the horrible things she did.

Cersei's horrified of Qyburns doings. Cersei's remorseful for the start of the war yadda yadda yadda.

 

46 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

and incapacity for love > debatable, the only person I get the feeling she loved was Joffrey, the moment Jaime questioned her she sends him away, she was not loyal to him, he was just her "yes ma'am". 

 

  1. Not debatable.
  2. Sending Jaime away=/ Not really loving Jaime.
  3. Not being "loyal" to Jaime=/ Not really loving Jaime.

I think that the problem lies with you, people have a really weird specific way of loving. Granted Cersei and Jaime's relationship is far from perfect, yet even in their dysfunction you can find love.

 

 

51 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

She is incapable of emphaty as she mocked Lady Stokeworth that was a rape victim, 

This is as stupid as saying that Eddard is incapable of empathy because he hardly if at all recalls of Mycah. 

 

This is a must. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Tyrion was never prepared to rule but he bloody did a better job than Cersei. Even Brandon whom was a child did a better job than Cersei.

The bloke that threw the dung at Joffrey's head would do a better job than Cersei.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

48 minutes ago, Lion of the West said:

Can you define "true empathy" as opposed to "false empathy"? I would like an authoritan definition so that I can understand this, and other, arguments better.

You can find all kinds of stuff on narcissism on youtube. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Lion of the West said:

No, they do not. To start with you are right in the how the same actions, personality traits etc. are view differently when done or possessed by a man or a woman. You are however wrong, in my opinion, in that Tywin and Cersei screw things up to the same degree. Cersei got herself arrested, shamed and more while Tywin's feud with the Martells lead to, about nothing, for Tywin.

He inflamed an entire kingdom unnecessarily like Joffrey angered the North. You know that's going to have consequences, right? At the very least its going to lead to his granddaughter's death. He trapped himself with Tyrion as well. Now he's six feet under the Rock and Cersei still lives. Cersei getting "shamed" was a sexist punishment that they would never put Tywin through so its not a point you should use to discount her abilities. I think Tywin and Cersei are at about the same level, its just that Tywin's intelligence gets overestimated.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

Tyrion was never prepared to rule but he bloody did a better job than Cersei. Even Brandon whom was a child did a better job than Cersei.

Like I mentioned before in my example with the deserters, Tywin and Cersei are on about the same level in terms of cruelty in their policy decisions. If you notice, Tyrion is the one who says they should only take a hammer to the deserters who actually killed someone on their side, while letting the rest go to the Wall because he had sympathy for Mormont's requests. Tyrion has an innate sense of justice and taking incoming threats (wildlings, Others, Daenerys) seriously and remembers favors asked (which will be rewarded). None of the Lannisters have that, and there is a reason GRRM wrote the show episode that made Joffrey look smarter than Tywin when it came to taking the Daenerys threat seriously. Just ponder that for a moment. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

He inflamed an entire kingdom unnecessarily like Joffrey angered the North. You know that's going to have consequences, right?

 

Problem with this is that Dorne sent an army to the Trident. The rebels smashed the Dornish army at the Trident and the remains fled to King's Landing where Tywin finished them off. Please tell me what ability to project force northward to do harm to the Lannisters in the Westerlands or King's Landing does the Martell possess?

As far as I can see, Tywin inflamed the kingdom most likely to be hostile to the new Baratheon dynasty regadless, that is the the weakest and most far away.

Cersei granted strength to a power there was every reason to think that she could neither bend by working with or break by force, and then delivered herself into their hands.

Do you see the difference between inflaming the distant Dornish and inflaming the ascendning Faith?

53 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

At the very least its going to lead to his granddaughter's death.

Partially this is on Tywin, yes, but more on the child murderers in Dorne and on Tyrion's stupidity in trying to make people who hates him, love him, by giving these people stuff to do harm to him. Sending Myrcelle to Dorne was perhaps Tyrion's biggest blunder in his stint as "Vice Hand" and given the Lannister's recent history with the Martells, Tyrion should have known better.

53 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

He trapped himself with Tyrion as well. Now he's six feet under the Rock and Cersei still lives.

That's silly. Tywin had no way to know of these tunnels and Jamie's scheme to freed Tyrion and then let Tyrion go into the tunnels on his own.

53 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Cersei getting "shamed" was a sexist punishment that they would never put Tywin through so its not a point you should use to discount her abilities.

I agree that it was a poor choice of words and example. My apologises.

53 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think Tywin and Cersei are at about the same level, its just that Tywin's intelligence gets overestimated.

The problem is that Cersei imitates Tywin's actions but she does not, as far as I can see, understand that Tywin chooses his actions according to what he wants to accomplish and the situation at hand. Hence Cersei is cruel because she thinks that cruelty is strength. Tywin is cruel because he can read a situation or character and see that these cruel acts will have effects beneficient to what he wants. At times these two overlapp, but often they do not.

But the point I am making, have been making and will keep making is that Cersei hasn't been given a proper education and training for rule, while Tywin has gained a ton of experience from many years as Hand and Lord Paramount. Hence Cersei would be more successful if Tywin had prepared her to rule.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, KingintheNorth4 said:

It's easy to understand why Cersei hated Robert, but I find it impossible to sympathize with her. She's a cruel and power hungry person who's only positive trait is her love for her children.

Exactly. Cersei being an abuse victim does not cancel out all the evil she has had done in her name. Sansa is also an abuse victim, but she remains kind and empathetic. But if she kills Sweetrobin in the next book, I'd stop sympathizing with her trauma. Being abused is not an excuse to inflict abuse on others.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/26/2020 at 4:21 PM, The Young Maester said:

They were both equally horrible to each other. It was a toxic marriage. Worst thing Robert probably did was allowing the murder of babes and abusing his wife. Joffrey deserved the beating he got. Robert had many faults but they didnt involve murdering other people for the smallest of things.

Other than that you gotta compare Cersei whom was violent and cruel by nature. Since she was a teenager, she tried to further her own ambitions from murdering her friend to manipulating Jamie into the kingsguard so that they can fuck whenever they want. Let’s not forget when she murdered the twins Robert fathered at casterly rock, and sold the mother to a slaver.

Than you have this shit

"What will be done with them, if I may be so bold?"

"Any men of substance shall be fined. Half their worth should be sufficient to teach them a sharp lesson and refill our coffers, without quite ruining them. Those too poor to pay can lose an eye, for watching treason. For the puppeteers, the axe."

 

And then gave them to Qyburn to experiment on!! Because he "needed another woman since the others were quite used up" RIP Senelle and Falyse.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

Being abused by Robert doesn't make her more likeable for me, I still hate her and look forward to see her death.

Robert was a good guy before sitting on a Throne he didn't want, Cersei was rotten since her childhood.

Was he? He seemed like a pretty arrogant and brash douchebag. He was a bully to his younger brother, he slept around with women, and sure, he was kind to one of his children, but he was happy to neglect most of them. Robert was good at a bunch of things. He was a good warrior, a good brawler, and presumably could hold his own with drinking and sex, but that doesn’t make him a good man.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If we look at the title/OP from the textual angle, nyet. Cersei is not more sympathetic. Better posters have said why in better ways than I could. 

But if it's a discussion of personal opinions, we have to respect others' views. It would be helpful if the OP was clear on this matter 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

That's silly. Tywin had no way to know of these tunnels and Jamie's scheme to freed Tyrion and then let Tyrion go into the tunnels on his own.

This is actually funny, thank you for helping me realize this. The paranoia that Cersei has about Tyrion is something that Tywin should have had. Lmaooo

Also Tywin is full of hubris. He didn't think his siblings might have sympathy for another sibling. The "s" word is a foreign concept to him, very much like Cersei. Also, why couldn't he have waited until Tyrion was dead? He risked it all for the nookie, like that horrid Limp Bizkit song. 

11 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

Partially this is on Tywin, yes, but more on the child murderers in Dorne and on Tyrion's stupidity in trying to make people who hates him, love him, by giving these people stuff to do harm to him. Sending Myrcelle to Dorne was perhaps Tyrion's biggest blunder in his stint as "Vice Hand" and given the Lannister's recent history with the Martells, Tyrion should have known better.

If not a granddaughter, then the Sandsnakes would put some other Lannister in their cross-hairs, they are that dead-set on vengeance. And if Tyrion was inept at sending Myrcella, then it showed Cersei's foresight because she called Myrcella a hostage. 

I also think the author is thumbing his nose at Tywin with glorious self-owns like "When soldiers lack discipline, the fault lies with their lord commander," his (Tyrions) father said.

11 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

The problem is that Cersei imitates Tywin's actions but she does not, as far as I can see, understand that Tywin chooses his actions according to what he wants to accomplish and the situation at hand. Hence Cersei is cruel because she thinks that cruelty is strength. Tywin is cruel because he can read a situation or character and see that these cruel acts will have effects beneficient to what he wants. At times these two overlapp, but often they do not.

Cersei's actions are NOT beneficent to what she wants? Can you give an example? Because I read it as her doing that to the point of obnoxiousness. Most of her ideas are based on actions to benefit her and "smite the realm's enemies" like Tywin (except for the actual enemies, Others and Daenerys, natch). 

She's awful don't get me wrong, but I don't think she's randomly cruel. She has a rationale for everything. She thinks Sennell is spying on her. She thinks Falyse will spill the beans about their plot to have her stupid husband kill Bronn in secret when in reality he challenges him to single combat. 

11 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

Do you see the difference between inflaming the distant Dornish and inflaming the ascendning Faith?

Inflaming the faith was happening long before Cersei. The Faith are radicalized by all of the wars, which is partially Tywin's fault. He would never admit that. While I agree that Cersei arming them was her biggest mistake, Tywin's mistake undid all the work that had been done prior to helping Dorne join the kingdoms. Jon Arryn cleaned up Tywin's mess for him in Dorne and bought them more time. Also I would argue that Tywin would still handle the Faith's issues just as poorly. The Faith are doing stuff like setting up camps, bringing all the dead bodies of spetons and septas killed in wartime to rest at Baelor's statue. Cersei thinks that Tywin would ride through all of the sparrows' camps and kill them to clean everything up. And yes I can totally see him doing that which might look like short-term gain but just inflame them further.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, frenin said:
  1. Not debatable.
  2. Sending Jaime away=/ Not really loving Jaime.
  3. Not being "loyal" to Jaime=/ Not really loving Jaime.

I think that the problem lies with you, people have a really weird specific way of loving. Granted Cersei and Jaime's relationship is far from perfect, yet even in their dysfunction you can find love.

Yup they fight like a long-married couple, with big fights that sound ANGRY but don't really mean much in the long run.

I thought her concern for Jaime here was pretty touching:

Quote

 

"Down the tunnel. There's a shaft, with iron rungs set in the stone. Ser Jaime went to see how deep it goes."

He has only one hand, she wanted to shout at them. One of you should have gone. He has no business climbing ladders. The men who murdered Father might be down there, waiting for him. Her twin had always been too rash, and it would seem that even losing a hand had not taught him caution. She was about to command the guards to go down after him and bring him back when Puckens and Shortear returned with a grey-haired man between them. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that from a moral perspective, Cersei is far worse.

Robert was always physically strong and that made him domineering and overbearing, but he is actually a weak personality. Most of the time you can see that there is desire within him to do good, but he doesn't have the willpower or persistence to go through with it. He gives himself up to drinking and whoring to push away the nagging problems instead. When bad things happen under his watch, it's usually a result of his passivity rather than active malice.

For Cersei, it's almost exactly the opposite. She is a woman and therefore automatically assigned less authority, but she does have a forceful personality and perseverance. She cannot win in direct conflict most of the time, so she resorts to deception. Cersei is not the smartest person in the room, but neither is she a dunce. Her focus on pressing her own interests makes up for most deficiencies. Unlike in Robert's case, there is cruelty embedded in her character. She is not content to see her enemies defeated, she wants to see them suffer as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...