Cersei is more sympathetic then Robert

[frenin]

6 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

He seemed like a pretty arrogant and brash douchebag.

Not from what we're told. He certainly was brash tho.

The rest seems up to the viewer. I don't share it anyway

 

6 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

He was a bully to his younger brother

He wasn't. He called his brother's pet weakwing. That's not bullying for the love of god.

 

6 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

he slept around with women.

The horror.

I believe there are far more terrible things to be in live that being a womanizer.

 

Quote

 and sure, he was kind to one of his children, but neglected the others.

He only had one children before getting the Throne.

 

 

6 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

but that doesn’t make him a good man.

Except other people tell otherwise. You don't have to be Ned to be a good man.

 

15 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

Partially this is on Tywin, yes, but more on the child murderers in Dorne and on Tyrion's stupidity in trying to make people who hates him, love him, by giving these people stuff to do harm to him. Sending Myrcelle to Dorne was perhaps Tyrion's biggest blunder in his stint as "Vice Hand" and given the Lannister's recent history with the Martells, Tyrion should have known better.

The Lannisters were in hurry of allies and having officially the backing of Dorne was a good boost. 

And given how Cersei boasted about their alliance in ASOS and how Tywin was so wary of Dorne backing Stannis. I'd say it was worth the risk. The only thing Tywin should've done was actually fulfilling Tyrion's end of the bargain and delivering Gregor's head... He wanted to have his cake and eat it too

[Alyn Oakenfist]

23 minutes ago, frenin said:

Except other people tell otherwise. You don't have to be Ned to be a good man.

No but being a good person and being a rapist are pretty mutually exclusive

[frenin]

3 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

No but being a good person and being a rapist are pretty mutually exclusive

No, it's being a horrible person indeed. Yet that was not the point being made. The conversation was about Robert before ascending the Throne.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, frenin said:

No, it's being a horrible person indeed. Yet that was not the point being made. The conversation was about Robert before ascending the Throne.

Well, judging from Cersei's POV the rapes were at their height in their first few years, aka in his first few years as King. Even their wedding night is a good example of the massive self centered douchebag Robert is. The Throne didn't corrupt Robert, it merely revealed him from who he truly was. I doubt Lyanna would have fared much better honestly, given how in love he seemed to think himself. Do you think he would have taken no for an answer in the marriage bed? Me neither.

[frenin]

4 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Well, judging from Cersei's POV the rapes were at their height in their first few years, aka in his first few years as King.

Yes, the point stands.

 

4 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Even their wedding night is a good example of the massive self centered douchebag Robert is.

By pronouncing the name of the woman he believed he loved??

 

7 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

The Throne didn't corrupt Robert, it merely revealed him from who he truly was.

A broken man with suicidal dreams all along?

 

The rest still stands, I'm not interested un changing your views so...

 

[Sigella]

On 12/28/2020 at 12:54 PM, Arthur Peres said:

Let's see what makes a psycho then:

Psychopathy is characterized by diagnostic features such as superficial charm, high intelligence, poor judgment and failure to learn from experience, pathological egocentricity and incapacity for love, lack of remorse or shame, impulsivity, grandiose sense of self-worth, pathological lying, manipulative behavior, poor self-control, promiscuous sexual behavior, juvenile delinquency, and criminal versatility, among others

source: https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/hidden-suffering-psychopath

Cersei checks on most, if not everything that is listed there.

Firstly psychopathy isn’t an existing condition - it is called anti social personality disorder, or in children callous unemotional traits. Look it up on wikipedia. Feeling bad/having empathy does rule it out.

 

I agree Cersei checks a lot but there are other disorders that might fit better like narcisistic personality disorder.

[Sigella]

On 12/28/2020 at 3:44 PM, frenin said:

I very much doubt she was raised by Tywin,  Her mother was alive till she was 12 and after that she saw her father at times.

Sure, like all noble children in the story she was mainly raised by servants. But it is clear that it is Tywin she models herself after. Cersei never thinks about her mother but Tywin pop up many times every Cersei-chapter. We learn more about Joanna Lannister from Pycelles written account in WoIaF than we do from any of her childrens thoughts or conversations.

[Angel Eyes]

On 12/29/2020 at 6:15 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

No but being a good person and being a rapist are pretty mutually exclusive

So when GRRM says that Robert is a good man, what does he mean in regards to that? Did Robert not do the things attributed to him, GRRM considers him a good person despite what he’s done, or does he not consider Robert’s sins that bad? Hopefully not the latter *shudder*

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, Angel Eyes said:

So when GRRM says that Robert is a good man, what does he mean in regards to that? Did Robert not do the things attributed to him, GRRM considers him a good person despite what he’s done, or does he not consider Robert’s sins that bad? Hopefully not the latter *shudder*

When did he said that?

[Angel Eyes]

2 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

When did he said that?

There’s an interview somewhere. I don’t know where off the top of my head.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

Just now, Angel Eyes said:

There’s an interview somewhere. I don’t know where off the top of my head.

My bet is that the interview was before 2005 and before he added that part in

[Lion of the West]

On 12/29/2020 at 11:51 AM, frenin said:

The Lannisters were in hurry of allies and having officially the backing of Dorne was a good boost. 

Was it? I may have forgotten by how did it help the Lannister cause?

On 12/29/2020 at 11:51 AM, frenin said:

And given how Cersei boasted about their alliance in ASOS and how Tywin was so wary of Dorne backing Stannis. I'd say it was worth the risk. The only thing Tywin should've done was actually fulfilling Tyrion's end of the bargain and delivering Gregor's head... He wanted to have his cake and eat it too

Cersei boasts of much and Tywin was right to see possible alliances between people who hates him.

However giving the Martells anything would be so stupid its beyond words. Gregor was worth far more to Tywin than the "plotter" in the Sunspear would ever do in favor of the Lannisters. Tywin knows that people who hate him will not do anything to help him and that giving them great asset for a token of positive attention for a second is stupid, harms the Lannisters and achives nothing. The Martells became Tywin's enemies after Elia's death and pretty much nothing that anyone does will change that dynamic for this current generation's time, at least.

As a RL example of the kind of scenario you're talking about, not about feuds but about pandering to your opponents: In my country's domestic politics the social democrats and the green party went along with many neo-liberal reforms to break the liberal parties away from the conservatives in the right-wing political bloc and make these liberal parties change sides to the left. What has actually happened has been that the neo-liberal parties have squeeshed the social democrats for neo-liberal reforms before starting to align themselves with their conservative friends again. 

Can you understand the pointlessness of pandering to people who hate you?

On 12/29/2020 at 12:40 PM, frenin said:

By pronouncing the name of the woman he believed he loved??

While having sex with an entirely different women. There's something called sensitivity and empathy to others and I've heard its good for making relations work.

Now of course Robert does not bear all the burden, as he did, as I recall, try to spend time and take Cersei along for various activities such as hunting and socialize with her, which she turned down. And that part is on Cersei as much as having sex with a woman and vocally expressing your desire for another woman is on Robert.

Finally I don't think that any relations between Robert and a wife could work. No real and living woman can stand a chance against an idealized fantasy who is always exactly whatever Robert wants her to be.

On 12/29/2020 at 12:40 PM, frenin said:

A broken man with suicidal dreams all along?

Who has worked pretty damned hard on alienating plenty of people who wanted to love him. Now I also understand that depressed people do self-destrutive things so that's a mitigating aspect of this. Yet at the end it was Robert who drove away Stannis from him, initiated his marriage with Cersei with a solid "you are nothing to me" sign and so on and was on the verge of driving away Eddard as well.

Robert is no doubt as complex as any characters in Westeros, but, his sad state is as much his own work as anyone else's.

[frenin]

2 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

Was it? I may have forgotten by how did it help the Lannister cause?

• It serve to break their isolation.
• After the Blackwater, it negated both Robb and Stannis of a natural while in turn isolate them. This was never more obvious than in Robb's last days and the atermath of the Red Wedding.
• It put pressure over their rivals.

Not every help is in form of military power.  Only by the fact that it meant one enemy less to worry about the deal (or so they think) is worth it. 

 

 

5 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

There’s an interview somewhere. I don’t know where off the top of my head.

I don't think that Martin has ever said or implied something like that. If so, one should go by death of the author.

 

2 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

Cersei boasts of much and Tywin was right to see possible alliances between people who hates him.

Then you can see how it helps them.

 

2 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

However giving the Martells anything would be so stupid its beyond words.

Giving anything to the Martells was, so far the Lannisters could tell at least, the difference between them remaining neutral,  then throwing their support to Renly, Stannis or Robb or in worse case scenario, them declaring independence and the Lanisters being forced to wage and unwinnable war against to subdue them.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

Gregor was worth far more to Tywin than the "plotter" in the Sunspear would ever do in favor of the Lannisters.

He was a particularly effective mad dog, keeping the Martells happier is far more important than Gregor. As Tywin himself understands when he tries to keep him alive so the Martells could kill in the off chance that they didn't decide to support Stannis.

Allowing Cersei to have her way and let the fight against Oberyn happen was bordeline absurd.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

Tywin knows that people who hate him will not do anything to help him and that giving them great asset for a token of positive attention for a second is stupid, The Martells became Tywin's enemies after Elia's death and pretty much nothing that anyone does will change that dynamic for this current generation's time, at least.

Does he know that?? Because he's actually trying to marry his enemies, else he would just kill Sansa instead of trying to gain the North through her even tho they have no more reasons to love or accept his kin that the Lannisters have.

Tywin also knows that the Martells have still not acted against him and what a pain in the ass it would be for him and his family if Dorne decided to take the chance to off him. Literally he had to do two things to keep the phony peace with Dorne,  either gave them Gregor's head in a silver platter or not allow Gregor to fight Oberyn.

Him believing he was smarter than anyone led him to believe that the Red Viper would be content with the goat story... and i don't know what led him to allow the latter. That's not on Tyrion, that's entirely on him.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

As a RL example of the kind of scenario you're talking about, not about feuds but about pandering to your opponents: In my country's domestic politics the social democrats and the green party went along with many neo-liberal reforms to break the liberal parties away from the conservatives in the right-wing political bloc and make these liberal parties change sides to the left. What has actually happened has been that the neo-liberal parties have squeeshed the social democrats for neo-liberal reforms before starting to align themselves with their conservative friends again. 

Can you understand the pointlessness of pandering to people who hate you?

This is not a good comparison like at all, the stakes are different, the context is different and the timeline is different. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

While having sex with an entirely different women. There's something called sensitivity and empathy to others and I've heard its good for making relations work.

Sure, it's way worse than fucking your brother in your wedding night.I don't think that you can ask someone sensitivity while inebriated and still grieving his dead betrothed.  

Of all Robert's many sins, this one is the most stupid and childish, if you can consider it a sin at all.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

Now of course Robert does not bear all the burden, as he did, as I recall, try to spend time and take Cersei along for various activities such as hunting and socialize with her, which she turned down. And that part is on Cersei as much as having sex with a woman and vocally expressing your desire for another woman is on Robert.

I don't think that either of them ever tried to get along or even to like each other, from the get go. Robert never gives the impression of wanting Cersei to love him, he's pretty outspoken about only wanting to fuck Cersei and it only took a bad gesture from Jaime for Cersei to stop being happy abot his marriage, nearly the moment it started.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

Who has worked pretty damned hard on alienating plenty of people who wanted to love him. Now I also understand that depressed people do self-destrutive things so that's a mitigating aspect of this. Yet at the end it was Robert who drove away Stannis from him, initiated his marriage with Cersei with a solid "you are nothing to me" sign and so on and was on the verge of driving away Eddard as well.

Robert is no doubt as complex as any characters in Westeros, but, his sad state is as much his own work as anyone else's.

I don't know what are you arguing here, I disagree to one sole thing, whether the Throne revealed Robert's "true self" or not, since i don't think that Robert ever planned to live under a self destruction hedonism, with touches of self loathing, depression and suicidal dreams, I disagree.

As i said i'm not interested in change your view or anyone's about this topic.

 

 

On 12/29/2020 at 5:32 PM, Sigella said:

Sure, like all noble children in the story she was mainly raised by servants. But it is clear that it is Tywin she models herself after. Cersei never thinks about her mother but Tywin pop up many times every Cersei-chapter. We learn more about Joanna Lannister from Pycelles written account in WoIaF than we do from any of her childrens thoughts or conversations.

I think that simply is due to Martin's treatment of mothers. How many times does Ned thinks of his??

Through Oberyn we know that their mother's death was difficult for Cersei and is also part of the reason she mistreats Tyrion.  Whereas i do think that Cersei did get the bad lessons from Tywin, i don't think that the latter was devoid of empathy either, otherwise Tyrion would never have lived to grow... nothing.

Tywin is also the ruling parent and more often than not, whenever Cersei has a "I'm literally Tywin" epiphanies is about how great she is at ruling.

[Sigella]

@frenin

Hard disagree. Tyrion got to live thanks to the kinslaying taboo. Tywin has no emotion towards his children, they are just his pawns or instruments.

Closest to any emotion towards them is the ”they have my son”-outburst and one could argue the emphasis could just as well be on the word ”my” as on ”son”.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

Hard disagree. Tyrion got to live thanks to the kinslaying taboo.

He doesn't need to kill him. He just needs to abandon him in barn or something, how well do you think a dwarf like Tyrion would've fared growing among peasants??

 

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

Tywin has no emotion towards his children, they are just his pawns or instruments.

I don't think that's true, they are not cuddling like the Starks but that doesn't mean he feels nothing towards them.

[Sigella]

28 minutes ago, frenin said:

He doesn't need to kill him. He just needs to abandon him in barn or something, how well do you think a dwarf like Tyrion would've fared growing among peasants??

 

I don't think that's true, they are not cuddling like the Starks but that doesn't mean he feels nothing towards them.

If Tyrion disapeared people would likely wonder and gossip. 
 

I can’t think of any display of affection, kindness or love ever displayed by Tywin towards his kids. Only thing is what I wrote earlier about ”they have my son”. Do you have any text to support? 

[frenin]

2 hours ago, Sigella said:

If Tyrion disapeared people would likely wonder and gossip. 

I very much doubt so. Their Maester was already saying that Tyrion was unlikely to live long anyway. It would not have been difficult to spread the lie of his deaths.

 

2 hours ago, Sigella said:

I can’t think of any display of affection, kindness or love ever displayed by Tywin towards his kids. Only thing is what I wrote earlier about ”they have my son”. Do you have any text to support? 

Tywin is reserved and cold, he's certainly not someone to display his emotions. Yet that doesn't mean that he only cares for his children as pawns.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Tywin is reserved and cold, he's certainly not someone to display his emotions. Yet that doesn't mean that he only cares for his children as pawns.

He only cares about Jaime, like Cersei only cares about Joffrey. This by the way is one of the hallmarks of a narcissist, only really caring about a favorite child that most resembles the narcissist.

[Lion of the West]

45 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

He only cares about Jaime, like Cersei only cares about Joffrey. This by the way is one of the hallmarks of a narcissist, only really caring about a favorite child that most resembles the narcissist.

And please tell me how does Jaime resemble Tywin? The calculating and patient Tywin is similar to the impulsive and reckless Jaime?

[Sigella]

4 hours ago, frenin said:

I very much doubt so. Their Maester was already saying that Tyrion was unlikely to live long anyway. It would not have been difficult to spread the lie of his deaths.

 

Why risk getting kinslayer stamped on you if the baby is like to die naturally? And once it gets bigger and no longer risks dying it gets much more difficult to pass it off as a not murder. Especially if you abandon him in a village (which isn’t feasible when Tyrion is uniqe-looking, it would get found out in a heartbeat if someone found a toddler dwarf with mismatched eyes by their barn one morning).

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Tywin is reserved and cold, he's certainly not someone to display his emotions. Yet that doesn't mean that he only cares for his children as pawns.

Being cold and reserved isn’t the issue here. Lots of characters have those traits but still manages to display emotion or empathy some way or another.

I take it you don’t have any text to lean on for this claim, so its head-canon maybe?

2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

He only cares about Jaime, like Cersei only cares about Joffrey. This by the way is one of the hallmarks of a narcissist, only really caring about a favorite child that most resembles the narcissist.

It doesn’t need to be a real resemblance though, could be the child that comes closest to the narcissists ideals. Joffrey is a lot dumber than Cersei but she favours him because she thinks he is mentally strong, unlike easily cowed Tommen.  Her views on mental fitness or self asteem being pretty skewed, just like Tywin placing a lot of pride in Jaimes skill at arms, even though Tywin himself never join any actual fighting as lord of casterly rock and despises the fact that Jaime is a KG.