Cersei is more sympathetic then Robert

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

And please tell me how does Jaime resemble Tywin? The calculating and patient Tywin is similar to the impulsive and reckless Jaime?

What @Sigella said

[frenin]

4 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

He only cares about Jaime, like Cersei only cares about Joffrey. This by the way is one of the hallmarks of a narcissist, only really caring about a favorite child that most resembles the narcissist.

So, let's keep with the saloon psychology. Can you tell me what behaviour of Jaime resembles his father??

 

 

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

Why risk getting kinslayer stamped on you if the baby is like to die naturally? And once it gets bigger and no longer risks dying it gets much more difficult to pass it off as a not murder. Especially if you abandon him in a village (which isn’t feasible when Tyrion is uniqe-looking, it would get found out in a heartbeat if someone found a toddler dwarf with mismatched eyes by their barn one morning).

Because no one is going to call him kinslayer if he just abandons the baby. If Tyrion survives a week, all he has to do is just abandon him, somewhere and let him to die. That's it.

There was nothing holding Tywin there.

 

 

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

Being cold and reserved isn’t the issue here. Lots of characters have those traits but still manages to display emotion or empathy some way or another.

I take it you don’t have any text to lean on for this claim, so its head-canon maybe?

Tywin displays emotion and empathy one way or another.

How would he have a stable relationship with his wife otherwise?

[Sigella]

14 minutes ago, frenin said:

Because no one is going to call him kinslayer if he just abandons the baby. If Tyrion survives a week, all he has to do is just abandon him, somewhere and let him to die. That's it.

There was nothing holding Tywin there.

 

I still argue kinslaying taboo. If it were to happen Tywin would be cursed in eyes of gods and men, shame his house etc.

14 minutes ago, frenin said:

Tywin displays emotion and empathy one way or another.

How would he have a stable relationship with his wife otherwise?

All we know is she made him laugh on occasion, which proves nothing in terms of empathy.

Granted my wording ”emotion” was clumsy, the Mountain shows lot of emotion (anger primarily) but that doesn’t mean he has functioning empathy. Affection would be a better choice of word.

Show me text where Tywin displays empathy or affection because I still think you might be treading head canon territory here.

[Kienn]

Robert

- Lazy

- Stupid

- Accused of various crimes by a demonstrated liar.

 

Cersei

- Murders children (and adults)

- Tortures babies (and adults)

- Can’t perceive reality

 

I’ll deal with Robert over Cersei anyday.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 hours ago, Kienn said:

Robert

- Lazy

- Stupid

- Accused of various crimes by a demonstrated liar.

- Arrogant as fuck

- Uncaring for the world around him

- Condoning the murder of little children

- Ordering the murder of pregnant teenagers

- Rapist

That last one especially, in my book, puts him in the subhuman category

[Nathan Stark]

46 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

- Arrogant as fuck

- Uncaring for the world around him

- Condoning the murder of little children

- Ordering the murder of pregnant teenagers

- Rapist

That last one especially, in my book, puts him in the subhuman category

Unlike Cersei, who orders little babies murdered and allows people to be tortured when they run out of uses for her? Cersei just isn't a sympathetic character. I don't care what Robert did. Cersei isn't sympathetic just because a bad thing happened to her.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, Nathan Stark said:

Unlike Cersei, who orders little babies murdered and allows people to be tortured when they run out of uses for her? Cersei just isn't a sympathetic character. I don't care what Robert did. Cersei isn't sympathetic just because a bad thing happened to her.

I never said she is sympathetic, just that she's more sympathetic then Robert, who again, I view as the lowest of the low.

[Arthur Peres]

40 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I never said she is sympathetic, just that she's more sympathetic then Robert, who again, I view as the lowest of the low.

Not even close.

Even if we blame most of the things of the marrieage in Robert, he is not even close to the too 10 worst characters in the series.

Jaime, The slave masters, Roose, Tywin, Gregor, Euron, Ramsey, Vargo Hoat, Aerys, Cersei, Joffrey, Littlefinger, Stannis, have done much worse than Robert. Even Theon can be argued that he is/was a worse person than Robert.

Robert, never used torture, humiliation, slavery, he didn't order murders of kids, he showed regreat for his actions.

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Arrogant as fuck

- Uncaring for the world around him

- Condoning the murder of little children

- Ordering the murder of pregnant teenagers

- Most of the nobles in the series are arrogant/proud. Even Daenerys, Jon and Robb have this problem.

- Not really, Robert died in peace beliving he trusted the world to the most capable, honored and loyal man in the realm. He did it because he cared about the realm. Otherwise he might just pull a Aegon IV and legitimaze his bastards and mess everything up.Robert also cared about his family, he gave both brothers a strong castle and Edric Storm remembers him fondly.

- This is his biggest sin, and does not even come close to Cersei that not only killed babies but also sold their mothers to slavery because of pride.

- and he tried to revoke such order and confessed to be wrong.

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 12/30/2020 at 12:00 PM, Lion of the West said:

While having sex with an entirely different women. There's something called sensitivity and empathy to others and I've heard its good for making relations work.

what was Cersei doing that morning? Sorry who .....

On 12/30/2020 at 12:00 PM, Lion of the West said:

Now of course Robert does not bear all the burden, as he did, as I recall, try to spend time and take Cersei along for various activities such as hunting and socialize with her, which she turned down. And that part is on Cersei as much as having sex with a woman and vocally expressing your desire for another woman is on Robert.

Finally I don't think that any relations between Robert and a wife could work. No real and living woman can stand a chance against an idealized fantasy who is always exactly whatever Robert wants her to be.

A relationship between those two wouldn’t ever work but there’s plenty of women (or men if it were Roberta) who would have stood with the, through that kind of abuse because of the privilege of station

[frenin]

On 12/31/2020 at 2:01 PM, Sigella said:

I still argue kinslaying taboo. If it were to happen Tywin would be cursed in eyes of gods and men, shame his house etc.

Abandoning one's child is not kinslaying. By definition.

 

On 12/31/2020 at 2:01 PM, Sigella said:

All we know is she made him laugh on occasion, which proves nothing in terms of empathy.

We know that "while Tywin ruled the Realm, Joanna ruled him", that all his smiles etc belonged to him and that a part of him died with her.

Seems a little odd for a sociopath.

 

Happy New Year!!

[Sigella]

22 minutes ago, frenin said:

Abandoning one's child is not kinslaying. By definition.

 

We know that "while Tywin ruled the Realm, Joanna ruled him", that all his smiles etc belonged to him and that a part of him died with her.

Seems a little odd for a sociopath.

 

Happy New Year!!

Adandoning isn’t doable. Theres too much risk, Tyrion is too unique looking.

One could also argue Pycelle’s account on Tywin being as truthful as his account on Joffy in the trial:

 "You used it all to kill the noblest child the gods ever put on this good earth.”

 

Happy new year to you too! 

[frenin]

8 hours ago, Sigella said:

One could also argue Pycelle’s account on Tywin being as truthful as his account on Joffy in the trial:

 "You used it all to kill the noblest child the gods ever put on this good earth.”

 

Fair enough. But if i don't misremember Tywin's siblings were of similar opinions and one of the reasons Tywin hates Tyrion is because "he killed his mother in the womb".

 

8 hours ago, Sigella said:

Adandoning isn’t doable. Theres too much risk, Tyrion is too unique looking.

Sure it is. All people knew about Tyrion was that he was a "monster", as Oberyn tells to Tyrion himself the tales had grown too old to bear any significant resemblance with Tyrion.

[Sigella]

 

3 hours ago, frenin said:

Sure it is. All people knew about Tyrion was that he was a "monster", as Oberyn tells to Tyrion himself the tales had grown too old to bear any significant resemblance with Tyrion.

I’ll elaborate why it isn’t. 
1 If the child disapears people will whisper* and ofc they will think Tywin threw him in a well,

2 An abandoned child could get into the wrong hands, considering their strained relationship Aerys would probably pay a pretty penny to humiliate Tywin by parading his son around the court, any rival or rebel would love to have him as well.

3 Down the line pretenders could become a real problem, who wouldn’t like the favour of an heir to Casterly Rock? 

4 All inheritances would be murky waters, Tyrion is second in line for the westerlands so every heir after Jaime would sit very uncertain
 

* which means everyone will know that there is an abnormal child gone missing and will so react accordingly if one should turn up, talk would spread of that as well.

 

Also I think you misunderstand the mechanics of a taboo. I don’t think Tywin is afraid to break it in itself - but he isn’t dumb so he sees the cost of social stigma. It would give Aerys SO many more barbs to puncture his overly proud Hand with, even if Tywin just left the child with some nice farmers.

[Sigella]

3 hours ago, frenin said:

Fair enough. But if i don't misremember Tywin's siblings were of similar opinions and one of the reasons Tywin hates Tyrion is because "he killed his mother in the womb".

The only ones we hear from are Genna and Kevvan. Genna like Tywin because he opposed he marriage and Kevvan doesn’t reflect on Tywin from what I can remember, so thats really not any proof either way.

[frenin]

9 hours ago, Sigella said:

I’ll elaborate why it isn’t. 
1 If the child disapears people will whisper* and ofc they will think Tywin threw him in a well,

2 An abandoned child could get into the wrong hands, considering their strained relationship Aerys would probably pay a pretty penny to humiliate Tywin by parading his son around the court, any rival or rebel would love to have him as well.

3 Down the line pretenders could become a real problem, who wouldn’t like the favour of an heir to Casterly Rock? 

4 All inheritances would be murky waters, Tyrion is second in line for the westerlands so every heir after Jaime would sit very uncertain

 

1) 

•    The child was stated to be unlikely to survive, so what would exactly would people whisper if he¡s simply declared dead??
• People have whispered about Tywin always, he has paid them little mind until the twincest came up... because it threatened his power and even then he did not overreact to them.

 

2) People don't know what Tyrion looked like.  People imagine how he looked like.   If Tywin says Tyrion's dead, the only thing others would be getting, if that ever happens, would be a random dwarf boy, unless Tyrion is the dwarf in Westeros, he can dismiss everything pretty easily. Even if by chance they happen to stumble into Tyrion.

 

3) Tyion was not going to get the Rock, even after Tywin declared him as a Lannister and his son before the entire Realm, not after Jaime had been in the Kingsguard for almost two decades.

What support would a random dwarf passing off as Tyrion could ever get??  Zero.

 

4) Unless the westernlords were eager to have a dwarf as their lord, I don't really think that would be much of a problem. 

 

Quote

* which means everyone will know that there is an abnormal child gone missing and will so react accordingly if one should turn up, talk would spread of that as well.

Why would anyone be aware of anything?? Would Tywin publicly declare that he intended to abandon his son??

 

 

Quote

Also I think you misunderstand the mechanics of a taboo. I don’t think Tywin is afraid to break it in itself - but he isn’t dumb so he sees the cost of social stigma. It would give Aerys SO many more barbs to puncture his overly proud Hand with, even if Tywin just left the child with some nice farmers.

I think you overestimate it. I also think that you believe that Tywin would make it public...

Regardless, abandoning one's child is disgusting, even by Westerosi standards i'd say.  yet it's not taboo.

 

9 hours ago, Sigella said:

The only ones we hear from are Genna and Kevvan. Genna like Tywin because he opposed he marriage and Kevvan doesn’t reflect on Tywin from what I can remember, so thats really not any proof either way.

Iirc it was Gerion the one to say it.  

[Sigella]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

 

1) 

•    The child was stated to be unlikely to survive, so what would exactly would people whisper if he¡s simply declared dead??
• People have whispered about Tywin always, he has paid them little mind until the twincest came up... because it threatened his power and even then he did not overreact to them.

 

2) People don't know what Tyrion looked like.  People imagine how he looked like.   If Tywin says Tyrion's dead, the only thing others would be getting, if that ever happens, would be a random dwarf boy, unless Tyrion is the dwarf in Westeros, he can dismiss everything pretty easily. Even if by chance they happen to stumble into Tyrion.

 

3) Tyion was not going to get the Rock, even after Tywin declared him as a Lannister and his son before the entire Realm, not after Jaime had been in the Kingsguard for almost two decades.

What support would a random dwarf passing off as Tyrion could ever get??  Zero.

 

4) Unless the westernlords were eager to have a dwarf as their lord, I don't really think that would be much of a problem. 

 

Why would anyone be aware of anything?? Would Tywin publicly declare that he intended to abandon his son??

 

 

I think you overestimate it. I also think that you believe that Tywin would make it public...

Regardless, abandoning one's child is disgusting, even by Westerosi standards i'd say.  yet it's not taboo.

 

Iirc it was Gerion the one to say it.  

Ok we’ll have to agree to diagree here, so far none of us seems to be able to convince the other and its off topic anyhow.  

[sweetsunray]

On 12/28/2020 at 6:44 PM, Lion of the West said:

I am not very interested in Youtube videos but I am interested in what you think on the differentiation between "true" and "false" empathy.

There's cognitive empathy and affectionate empathy. Psychopaths and narcissists are capable of the first: they "know" intellectually that it will hurt, anger or pain someone else if they do a certain thing. The last is the sensation of feeling the pain, anger and hurt another person would have. Psychopaths and narcissists do not have the latter (or barely a glimmer with the latter). Linguistically we refer to it as "feeling sympathy". Because they have the first, they can be sadistic: by knowing they will hurt someone, they get enjoyment out of it. The second will bar us from inflicting pain, because the emotional response is too strong. When people say that neither disorder have empathy, they mean the latter. In contrast, someone with autism will lack the first type of empathy, but has the second one. They have difficulty foreseeing they will hurt someone with their behaviour or actions, but can feel it acutely once shown the consequences.

When it comes to empathy, people also often make the mistake that because psychopaths and narcissists can feel very sorry for themselves, they must be able to have affectionate empathy. But alas, that is the sole person they can "empathize" with - themselves. Except, we cannot count that as "empathy", because the point of empathy is that you can feel sympathy for another, not just yourself. This is exemplified in Cersei by her solely having sympathy for Jaime as long as he looks like her. Her empathic range goes no further than herself and someone she identifies as an extension of herself. This is the range of empathy a narcissist can have.

And there is also a misconception that empathy itself is absolute - you have it or you don't. But once you have empathy it can actually exist along a spectrum. The range depends on how much they can empathize with a stranger - those they identify as being like them (Jaime, Joffrey in Cersei's case until Jaime looks no longer her image), close family, wider family, friends, neighbors, complete strangers they only know by name. When Arya puts people on her list for raping a woman she hears off only through a story told, her empathy spectrum is the broadest available. That is the range of affectionate spectrum of someone we refer to as an "empath". Most people have affectionate empathy towards people they know.

To complicate matters empathic people, including empaths, are able to override their feeling response intellectually. We can switch-it-off momentarily. It's what most of us do, when we walk passed someone asking for coin. Even when people feel for them, they will rationalize why they cannot give that person an alm - no change, can't give to everyone, etc. And it's what Arya learns to do in Braavos for example.

With Cersei, I'm more inclined to see her as a malignant narcissist than a psychopath. Even disordered psychopaths are more calculated and cool-headed behind their mask than Cersei is (Roose Bolton is an example). Cersei's coolness is the mask, but inside she's nothing like it. How differs a malignant narcissist from a narcissist? Add sadism to the narcissism, and of this we have ample examples with Cersei.

As for the arguments on how to deal with the checklist of psychopathy of Robert Hare: Hare did not make the list to be seen as "absolute" yes/no. It's a scale that totals to 40, with a cutoff at 30. Someone who manages to acquire 30 is regarded a psychopath. That doesn't mean a 25 or even 15 is not a harmful human being. 30 represents the 1% of population range on the attributed. 50% of the population though score between 0-4 on the test. Machiavellists and narcissists would score highly though, but beneath 30. If you know that the average of the prison population on the Hare scale test is 25, you get an inkling on 1) how many convicts are in the psychopathy range in comparison to the general population 2) don't get personally involved, because if you are a 0-4 you're going to be hurt.

Anyway, empathy is a complex concept and complex to measure. It's not enough to say "that character shows no sympathy". You must ask yourself whether they could have sympathy, but chose not to have it (sign of empathic person, switching it off momentarily). Likewise it's not enough to say, "they feel sick at the sight of a mangled corpse, so must have sympathy". Emotions are a higher level process than a physical sensation only. Without processing of the sensation it cannot be called an emotion and therefore is not regarded affectionate empathy. Instead of just feeling /being sick, we end up saying, "I am disgusted". In other words, there's a linguistic filter component to the concept of emotions, to differentiate our bodily sensations and responses between pure reactive physical reaction and a more complex reaction. This is a learned/experience process.

Apply that to Cersei. We know she sympathizes with herself. Rather than choosing to not have affectionate empathy for people, she chooses to mimic empathy when it suits her. She may have bodily responses to seeing the worst results to another person, showing she has the wiring to spark the sensation that could result into affectionate empathy, but she does not do the processing.

 

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

On 12/28/2020 at 4:08 PM, Willam Stark said:

Being abused by Robert doesn't make her more likeable for me, I still hate her and look forward to see her death.

Robert was a good guy before sitting on a Throne he didn't want, Cersei was rotten since her childhood.

She has a cruel streak.  But is Robert any better?  Wanting all the Targaryens, even innocent children dead, is a sign of a cruel streak.  Are you sure about Robert?  Did he say he didn't want to be king?  I'm thinking he found out that the job isn't all brawling and drinking and got tired of it.  

I have more sympathy for Robert on an emotional level because he has paid for his bad deeds.  The wild pig made sure of that.  Cersei has yet to pay.  But I wouldn't be comfortable giving one a moral edge over the other.  

[Alyn Oakenfist]

20 minutes ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

I have more sympathy for Robert on an emotional level because he has paid for his bad deeds

In more ways then one if you think about it. Sure he was killed by Cersei partially as revenge, but also Ned only went to Cersei to dot he big stupid due to the dragonspawn incident. Had he not reacted like he did, Ned might have well went to him directly with the truth.

[CamiloRP]

13 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

In more ways then one if you think about it. Sure he was killed by Cersei partially as revenge, but also Ned only went to Cersei to dot he big stupid due to the dragonspawn incident. Had he not reacted like he did, Ned might have well went to him directly with the truth.

Yes, and I think Ned was being an idiot. He could've asked for Robert to not kill the children as a thank you for telling him. Robert would have cussed and roared, but he would've done right by Ned.