Cersei is more sympathetic then Robert

[SerDuncan]

Cersei is more sympathetic than Robert 

And she'll be the Maiden herself next! 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, Thor Stark said:

Cersei is more sympathetic than Robert 

And she'll be the Maiden herself next! 

I mean in that department she is definitely better than Robert

[Ewan McGregor]

They are both awful people showing all that is wrong with Westeros and what Dany needs to cleanse

[SerDuncan]

3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I mean in that department she is definitely better than Robert

Fair enough sir 

[Meera of Tarth]

On 1/2/2021 at 8:06 PM, sweetsunray said:

There's cognitive empathy and affectionate empathy. Psychopaths and narcissists are capable of the first: they "know" intellectually that it will hurt, anger or pain someone else if they do a certain thing. The last is the sensation of feeling the pain, anger and hurt another person would have. Psychopaths and narcissists do not have the latter (or barely a glimmer with the latter). Linguistically we refer to it as "feeling sympathy". Because they have the first, they can be sadistic: by knowing they will hurt someone, they get enjoyment out of it. The second will bar us from inflicting pain, because the emotional response is too strong. When people say that neither disorder have empathy, they mean the latter. In contrast, someone with autism will lack the first type of empathy, but has the second one. They have difficulty foreseeing they will hurt someone with their behaviour or actions, but can feel it acutely once shown the consequences.

When it comes to empathy, people also often make the mistake that because psychopaths and narcissists can feel very sorry for themselves, they must be able to have affectionate empathy. But alas, that is the sole person they can "empathize" with - themselves. Except, we cannot count that as "empathy", because the point of empathy is that you can feel sympathy for another, not just yourself. This is exemplified in Cersei by her solely having sympathy for Jaime as long as he looks like her. Her empathic range goes no further than herself and someone she identifies as an extension of herself. This is the range of empathy a narcissist can have.

And there is also a misconception that empathy itself is absolute - you have it or you don't. But once you have empathy it can actually exist along a spectrum. The range depends on how much they can empathize with a stranger - those they identify as being like them (Jaime, Joffrey in Cersei's case until Jaime looks no longer her image), close family, wider family, friends, neighbors, complete strangers they only know by name. When Arya puts people on her list for raping a woman she hears off only through a story told, her empathy spectrum is the broadest available. That is the range of affectionate spectrum of someone we refer to as an "empath". Most people have affectionate empathy towards people they know.

To complicate matters empathic people, including empaths, are able to override their feeling response intellectually. We can switch-it-off momentarily. It's what most of us do, when we walk passed someone asking for coin. Even when people feel for them, they will rationalize why they cannot give that person an alm - no change, can't give to everyone, etc. And it's what Arya learns to do in Braavos for example.

With Cersei, I'm more inclined to see her as a malignant narcissist than a psychopath. Even disordered psychopaths are more calculated and cool-headed behind their mask than Cersei is (Roose Bolton is an example). Cersei's coolness is the mask, but inside she's nothing like it. How differs a malignant narcissist from a narcissist? Add sadism to the narcissism, and of this we have ample examples with Cersei.

As for the arguments on how to deal with the checklist of psychopathy of Robert Hare: Hare did not make the list to be seen as "absolute" yes/no. It's a scale that totals to 40, with a cutoff at 30. Someone who manages to acquire 30 is regarded a psychopath. That doesn't mean a 25 or even 15 is not a harmful human being. 30 represents the 1% of population range on the attributed. 50% of the population though score between 0-4 on the test. Machiavellists and narcissists would score highly though, but beneath 30. If you know that the average of the prison population on the Hare scale test is 25, you get an inkling on 1) how many convicts are in the psychopathy range in comparison to the general population 2) don't get personally involved, because if you are a 0-4 you're going to be hurt.

Anyway, empathy is a complex concept and complex to measure. It's not enough to say "that character shows no sympathy". You must ask yourself whether they could have sympathy, but chose not to have it (sign of empathic person, switching it off momentarily). Likewise it's not enough to say, "they feel sick at the sight of a mangled corpse, so must have sympathy". Emotions are a higher level process than a physical sensation only. Without processing of the sensation it cannot be called an emotion and therefore is not regarded affectionate empathy. Instead of just feeling /being sick, we end up saying, "I am disgusted". In other words, there's a linguistic filter component to the concept of emotions, to differentiate our bodily sensations and responses between pure reactive physical reaction and a more complex reaction. This is a learned/experience process.

Apply that to Cersei. We know she sympathizes with herself. Rather than choosing to not have affectionate empathy for people, she chooses to mimic empathy when it suits her. She may have bodily responses to seeing the worst results to another person, showing she has the wiring to spark the sensation that could result into affectionate empathy, but she does not do the processing.

 

Love your analysis! 

[SeanF]

I don't know that she is more sympathetic.  There are rare occasions when one can feel sympathy for her (her recalling her love for Rhaegar, the Walk of Shame, her abuse at Robert's hands) but they are outweighed by the horrible things she does.

But, I certainly don't find Robert sympathetic in any way.  He was a horrible man.

[LHakaLH]

20 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I don't know that she is more sympathetic.  There are rare occasions when one can feel sympathy for her (her recalling her love for Rhaegar, the Walk of Shame, her abuse at Robert's hands) but they are outweighed by the horrible things she does.

But, I certainly don't find Robert sympathetic in any way.  He was a horrible man.

Cersei's 'love' for Rhaegar was no different than Robert's 'love' for Lyanna (a perfect idealization created based solely on their phyisical appearances). If Rhaegar and Cersei had married, trust and believe the moment Cersei's perfect idealization of Rhaegar was shattered, she would've started to hate/resent him and wanting to rid herself of him. As for the WoS, I think pity's the closest to sympathy we're supposed to feel (at least in my case); this is a woman who has done and caused terrible things, directly or indirectly, not to mention she completely brought it upon herself with her foolish, arrogant actions. The closest to sympathy I've ever felt for Cersei was towards the end of the WoS, when she trips and falls to the ground and she begins 'crawling on all fours like a dog' while the 'good' people of King's Landing laugh, point, cheer and jeer. As for Robert's abuse, cases can be made for both of them abusing each other. They were just as bad and toxic.

[Mister Smikes]

On 1/13/2021 at 9:13 PM, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Cersei started to abuse her newborn brother when she was 7 years old,

Maybe.  Or maybe that was just the Viper pricking Tyrion with his poison spear.

On 1/13/2021 at 9:13 PM, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

killed her best friend at 10,

That's more like it.

 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Cersei more sympathetic than Robert ? Hahahaha, good one! 

But let's be serious again, Cersei is certainely one of the worst persons in ASOIAF, having been an awful person ever since her childhood with her abuse of Tyrion and her murdering her best friend at a young age, and being an incredibly toxic, lying, abusive, petty, hypocrital and cruel person.

Even Robert's worse actions against her are tame compared to her having threatened to murder Mya Stone if Robert ever brought her to court so he could raise her, her ordering the murders of every bastard of Robert in King's Landing, her having people being tortured or used as lab rats by Qyburn, her abuse of Tommen, etc...

And that's not counting that Cersei does everything she hates and blames Robert for during AFFC (drinking, eating, becoming fatter, having sex with many others) and is very misogynistic herself, being furious at being used as a political tool, not respected and suffering abuse but being perfectly fine with other women suffering these.

[EggBlue]

she is more sympathetic than Robert in their marriage. but nothing else.

if I had to compare them , I'd say they are both equally horrible people and that's only because Robert's raping gets a huge negative score.... let us see:

• his womanizing and Cersei's cheating on both him and Jaimie are equal
• Cersei is worse in her arrogance and pettiness and Robert is blind when it comes to dragonspawns
• funnily enough they both think of themselves as victims and they actually believe it!! :

-Robert thinks he was a victim when Lyanna -the love of his life who he didn't know much and he even cheated on when he was looking for her- was taken away from him and he had to go to war and had to become king and had to marry Cersei and his life got destroyed .... at least Robert's case is somewhat debatable!

-Cersei blames Margery for having to torture Blue Bard!! and she blames maggi for her murdering Melara!!

• they are equally horrible in the way they treat people though in different ways. Cersei thinks she is better than everyone and Robert just doesn't care about most people.
• they are both incompetent drunken economy destroyer idiotic rulers
• and Robert's abuse and rape could be aligned with Cersei's treatment of the people she casually sent to Qyburn , her schemes for poor Margery and the men she just didn't like ( the Summer Islander guy for example) , abusing little Tyrion , seducing her teenage cousin -who is not much older than her own son by the way- and thinking of how he is disgusting and should have died instead of Tywin after she sees him recovering after battle!! and her murder of Melara.

 

 

what a close run

[HoodedCrow]

Cersei and Robert are a pretty bad match of horrid people. I don’t know, but I would give Cersei an edge for planning to kill Robert and that it succeeded! Both would kill children. Both would be better with someone else, but not a lot. Roberts alcoholism, apathy and war experiences won’t help him. Cersei was sadistic early on and her narcissism isn’t curable.

[Odej]

On 5/3/2021 at 10:29 PM, Mister Smikes said:

Maybe.  Or maybe that was just the Viper pricking Tyrion with his poison spear.

Cersei herself remembers having abused Tyrion on other occasions in AFFC:

"King Baelor imprisoned his own sisters, whose only crime was being beautiful. The first time Cersei heard that tale, she gone to Tyrion's nursery and pinched the little monster till he cried."

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On 12/26/2020 at 5:18 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So until AFFC my opinion of Robert was that he seemed a decent enough fellow for Westeros slowly poisoned by bitterness but with a good side still remaining. After AFFC thought, I firmly put him at the bottom of my character list, over Aerys, Roose, Ramsay and Walder, thought not by much. Being bitter about his lot in life and being unhappy with his wife is one thing. Raping her is quite another. I mean shit, I get Cersei wanting to cuckhold him, heck she was justified in doing it to him. So am I the only one that after AFFC is more sympathetic to Cersei then Robert?

LE Just to remind everyone, in AFFC we learn that dear Robert is a rapist

Robert is more sympathetic than Cercei , You can the situation you can change the man . Cercei is Cercei .

The basic flaw with POV's is the person is an unreliable narrator . Cercei sees herself as a victim , a victim of Tywin ,Robert , and Tyrion .

In AFFC Cercei accused Robert of rape , but in another book Jaime was nervous that Robert would claim his rights as a husband .  There is one thing that we know of that in AGOT he struck Cercei . 1 she had a bruised face  , she said he did it ,and Robert  confirmed it.

[Lee-Sensei]

It will never not be interesting to me how many people seem to think Cersei and Robert are equally bad. They were in a mutually abusive relationship, but Cersei had him killed. So ultimately, she was the more violent one. There’s also the fact that Robert shows remorse for his misdeeds in ways that Cersei really doesn’t. This is especially notable since Robert isn’t a POV character. We don’t have to get in his head to see him recognize his mistakes. We get in Cersei’s head and it’s full of narcissism, thoughtless cruelty and delusions of grandeur. George beat us over the head with their differences. Robert was a lazy drunk with a conscience. Cersei is a monster.

“Let me tell you a secret, Ned. More than once, I have dreamed of giving up the crown… You know what stops me? The thought of Joffrey on the throne, with Cersei standing behind him whispering in his ear. My son. How could I have made a son like that, Ned?”

Cersei is the same person that called Robert weak for not committing genocide.

“Robert should have scoured the isles after Balon Greyjoy rose against him, Cersei thought. He smashed their fleet, burned their towns, and broke their castles, but when he had them on their knees he let them up again. He should have made another island of their skulls. That was what her father would have done, but Robert never had the stomach that a king requires if he hopes to keep peace in the realm.”

I can see Robert having a functional relationship with another woman. I can’t see Cersei having one with any man.

[BlackLightning]

On 12/26/2020 at 4:18 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So until AFFC my opinion of Robert was that he seemed a decent enough fellow for Westeros slowly poisoned by bitterness but with a good side still remaining. After AFFC thought, I firmly put him at the bottom of my character list, over Aerys, Roose, Ramsay and Walder, thought not by much. Being bitter about his lot in life and being unhappy with his wife is one thing. Raping her is quite another. I mean shit, I get Cersei wanting to cuckhold him, heck she was justified in doing it to him. So am I the only one that after AFFC is more sympathetic to Cersei then Robert?

LE Just to remind everyone, in AFFC we learn that dear Robert is a rapist

Just FYI to everyone

Cersei is a narcissist and a liar. Those two things alone makes her an extremely unreliable narrator. When you factor in her paranoia and how gleefully sinister she is, her unreliability doubles.

Honestly, I don't believe Cersei when she says Robert raped her. Not really. In her mind, every single sexual encounter that they had (or almost had) as husband and wife was rape.

[Daeron the Daring]

46 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Honestly, I don't believe Cersei when she says Robert raped her. Not really. In her mind, every single sexual encounter that they had (or almost had) as husband and wife was rape.

It is her decision to decide wether she, you know, enjoys it or not. Rhaegar clearly left a big mark on her, and I think it is more than safe to assume she never enjoyed it with a drunkard who also happened to be the killer of her idol. Add up that Robert fucked whores all day and every day, plus that he loved and idolized Lyanna until his death, whereas she herself had an affair with Jaime.

Now, I'm not a woman, nor a narcissist (I hope), but surely I wouldn't enjoy this either.

The only ground Cersei is more sympathetic is her marriage with Robert, but that of course doesn't add up to the horrible things she'd done. ALA, Cersei is a worse person, but she was the victim of domestic violence, and her being a sicko doesn't justify rapism and abusive behavior from Robert's side.

Everybody should be called out for their own wrongdoings, and victims are victims nonetheless.

[sifth]

This is the same lady who was having sex with her brother the night before her wedding we're talking about, lol

[Lee-Sensei]

4 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

It is her decision to decide wether she, you know, enjoys it or not. Rhaegar clearly left a big mark on her, and I think it is more than safe to assume she never enjoyed it with a drunkard who also happened to be the killer of her idol. Add up that Robert fucked whores all day and every day, plus that he loved and idolized Lyanna until his death, whereas she herself had an affair with Jaime.

Now, I'm not a woman, nor a narcissist (I hope), but surely I wouldn't enjoy this either.

The only ground Cersei is more sympathetic is her marriage with Robert, but that of course doesn't add up to the horrible things she'd done. ALA, Cersei is a worse person, but she was the victim of domestic violence, and her being a sicko doesn't justify rapism and abusive behavior from Robert's side.

Everybody should be called out for their own wrongdoings, and victims are victims nonetheless.

Cersei murdered him. This argument that Robert was an abuser has never made sense, because they only look at it from one side. They both were abusers. So even in this one area, Cersei was the more violent. Let’s look at how they reacted to that violence.

Quote

Robert reached for the flagon and refilled his cup. “You see what she does to me, Ned.” The king seated himself, cradling his wine cup. “My loving wife. The mother of my children.” The rage was gone from him now; in his eyes Ned saw something sad and scared. “I should not have hit her. That was not… that was not kingly.” He stared down at his hands, as if he did not quite know what they were. “I was always strong… no one could stand before me, no one. How do you fight someone if you can’t hit them?” Confused, the king shook his head.”

That’s how Robert responds. He strikes out in a moment of anger and immediately feels remorse about it. This is how Cersei responded to murdering her husband.

Quote

“You should have been at the feast, Tyrion. There has never been a boar so delicious. They cooked it with mushrooms and apples, and it tasted like triumph.”
“Truly, sister, you were born to be a widow.”

Absolutely no remorse from her. Even in their marriage, I find her significantly less sympathetic.

Again, Robert was abusive. But so was Cersei. She wasn’t just a victim of him. He was a victim of her too. It might be useful to see their actual interactions. Like the chapter where Lady is killed, to see how Cersei pushes. This isn’t the behaviour of a battered woman in fear for her life.

[Daeron the Daring]

5 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Cersei murdered him.

Which was murder fur hire.

5 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

This argument that Robert was an abuser has never made sense, because they only look at it from one side.

As far as I'm aware, Cersei was the subject of sexual and physical assault, not Robert. Do you know a single time when Robert was raped by Cersei? Abuse is abuse, and murder is murder. The two are  very different things. 

-abuse: physical maltreatment

-murder: the crime of intentionally killing a person

6 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

They both were abusers.

Cersei is a murderer, Robert is an abuser. As it is established before, the two aren't the same.

You're free to provide evidence of abusement from Cersei's side tho, but murder isn't one of them. and as far as I'm aware, Cersei was never the one who went to Robert to have sex, but vice versa.

6 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

So even in this one area, Cersei was the more violent.

I'm not saying Cersei isn't violent, but murder for hire is only violence for the hired one, not the one who hires someone. This makes her a terrible person, but not a violent one (altough she was). The same goes for the bastards of Robert.

6 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

That’s how Robert responds. He strikes out in a moment of anger and immediately feels remorse about it. This is how Cersei responded to murdering her husband.

So, does remorse makes it okay? Is everything alright, once he felt remorse? Did he feel remorse because he did it in front of Ned? Was remorse enough to not let Joffrey turn out the was he did? I don't think so. That1s not how you make things right, and I would argue that in certain situations it doesn't change nothing, such as in Joff's case. Hitting a child and making him believe that he deserved it actually affects him terribly, and for a lifetime. That's called the cycle of violence, and it would've made Joffrey behave similar to his children just for that reason already, not to mention that the boy was mistreated by Robert as long as he lived. Meanwhile Joffrey idolized him his whole life, because he was such a failure to him, and Joff realised that.

6 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

This isn’t the behaviour of a battered woman in fear for her life.

So far noone suggested she had to be in constant fear for her life.

6 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

He was a victim of her too.

Yes, he was. But in different ways. Robert abused her, she murdered him. Not even in return, beacuse she hated him for far more than their marriage and what happened inside it, and it was first and foremost to protect her children. It was her own narcissistic reasons, but still.

[Lee-Sensei]

8 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Which was murder fur hire.

As far as I'm aware, Cersei was the subject of sexual and physical assault, not Robert. Do you know a single time when Robert was raped by Cersei? Abuse is abuse, and murder is murder. The two are  very different things. 

-abuse: physical maltreatment

-murder: the crime of intentionally killing a person

Cersei is a murderer, Robert is an abuser. As it is established before, the two aren't the same.

Yeah. She hit him too. Robert hit her a handful of times. One of those was when she threatened to murder his daughter. You can say that he was physically abusive, but so was she. Along wit being emotionally and verbally abusive. And killing him of course. And yes. Killing your spouse qualifies as abuse.

 

8 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

You're free to provide evidence of abusement from Cersei's side tho, but murder isn't one of them. and as far as I'm aware, Cersei was never the one who went to Robert to have sex, but vice versa.

Cersei had a job to do. She was Queen and the King needs heirs. If she didn’t want to have his children, she should have left. Instead she chose to kill his kids, pass off her kids by her brother as the heirs to the Throne and plot to murder every member of his family to rob them of everything they’ve ever owned.

 

8 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I'm not saying Cersei isn't violent, but murder for hire is only violence for the hired one, not the one who hires someone. This makes her a terrible person, but not a violent one (altough she was). The same goes for the bastards of Robert.

No. Plotting the murder of your spouse and ordering the deaths of his children is absolutely violent.

 

8 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

So, does remorse makes it okay? Is everything alright, once he felt remorse? Did he feel remorse because he did it in front of Ned?

Nope. He probably felt remorse, because it was in his nature.

 

8 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Was remorse enough to not let Joffrey turn out the was he did? I don't think so.

Joffrey turned out the way he did, because of a mix of nurture and nature. Nurture, because Cersei encouraged his bad behaviour. Nature, because he’s twin red. That’s not to say that Robert was a perfect father to his wife’s bastard, but he was the only one that offered any sort of discipline or discouragement of his bad behaviour. Cersei says that he would say things to Joffrey.

 

8 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

That1s not how you make things right, and I would argue that in certain situations it doesn't change nothing, such as in Joff's case. Hitting a child and making him believe that he deserved it actually affects him terribly, and for a lifetime. That's called the cycle of violence, and it would've made Joffrey behave similar to his children just for that reason already, not to mention that the boy was mistreated by Robert as long as he lived. Meanwhile Joffrey idolized him his whole life, because he was such a failure to him, and Joff realised that.

Theon was beaten at Winterfell for accidentally bumping into Old Nan. Duncan was beaten by Arlan for stealing a pie (although he claims he didn’t do it). Robert hit Joffrey for butchering a pregnant cat. Hitting children for bad behaviour is normal in Westeros. Although, jumping down the stairs and stealing pie is normal childlike behaviour. Cutting open pregnant cats isn’t. In fact, when it comes to disciplining children... we can look at his reaction to the Arya and Joffrey fight.

Quote

“Seven hells,” Robert swore. “Cersei, look at her. Shes a child. What would you have me do, whip her through the streets? Damn it, children fight. Its over. No lasting harm was done.”

If we’re talking about abusing children, it’s worth mentioning that Jaime says Cersei wanted Robert to maim Arya and Robert called her “mad and cruel”. We only know one time Robert hit a child and it was Joffrey for torturing animals (which is how a lot of serial killers get their start and a massive red flag). The point is that Robert isn’t just naturally a child abuser. He hit Joffrey once for doing something incredibly evil and when it comes to normal kids like Arya, he’s very lenient (whereas Cersei wanted her to have her hand cut off).
 

8 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

So far noone suggested she had to be in constant fear for her life.

Yes, he was. But in different ways. Robert abused her, she murdered him. Not even in return, beacuse she hated him for far more than their marriage and what happened inside it, and it was first and foremost to protect her children. It was her own narcissistic reasons, but still.

Cersei murdered him for power. Robert was in the way. That’s also why she stayed. If she really wanted to escape an abusive situation, she could have left one of the many times Robert was on his hunts and away from her. Ned gave her a chance to flee while Robert was hunting. He told her to take her brother and money and go to Essos. She chose to stay, because if she escaped her husband, she wouldn’t get to be Queen.