Another take on the Valonqar prophesy

[Eltharion21]

On 12/27/2020 at 2:55 PM, dbergkvist said:

The prophecy is:

1. You will have three children
2. They will rule and then die
3. This will make you sad
4. Then the younger brother will strangle you

The misdirection is that she does everything in her power to make Cersei (and the reader) forget that there is a direct connection between step 1 and step 4. When you remove those tricks, it becomes very clear that the younger brother in question is the younger brother among her children.

So either undead Tommen is the "valonqar", or Maggy flat out lied and this prophecy is complete BS.

"Prophecies" are vague and often deliberately ambiguous. Just take look in Nostradamus work, examples in antiquity with Oracles of Dodona answer to the Greek general going to war about outcome:

Quote

 Ibis redibis nunquam per bella peribis = "you will go, you will return, never in war will you perish" 

With Cersei's Pov added they might be literary tool to add new layers in her motivation and confrontation with people she considers a threat, and whose self fulfilling aspect is kind of reminiscent of Macbeth and three witches

Quote

Aye. Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.

Will the king and I have children?

Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds, she said. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.

We can't be sure if all of her children will die as Myrcella might survive and wear shroud to cover scar on her face.

Though personally  think some sort of strangulation is the death Martin has planned for Cersei:

Quote

Every morning, when I wake, I remember that Ned is gone. I have no skill with swords, but that does not mean that I do not dream of riding to King's Landing and wrapping my hands around Cersei Lannister's white throat and squeezing until her face turns black.

 

[The Sleeper]

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

But Cersei didn't murder her. That's at Tyrion's doorstep. I think finding Shae in her father's bed and her father dead, was the resolution. It was horrifying to her and that was karma coming back. Dying just like Shae is a bit on the nose and also encourages the reader's sexist fantasies of Cersei dying horribly herself, this time like some "common whore." I always think about how GRRM said he likes to frustrate readers.  I think of this when it comes to Cersei, so many are rooting for her comeuppance in a very particular way.

I did say the Lannisters plural. Tyrion murdered her, Tywin, Tyrion and Cersei used her and Cersei threw her out like trash. Also let's face it, on one level Tywin's death is everything Cersei ever wished for but didn't dare admit to herself. Not that she'd be unjustified, but she goes on emulating him. That is why it would be fitting. Both Tyrion and Cersei are carrying on Tywin's legacy. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

14 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

I did say the Lannisters plural. Tyrion murdered her, Tywin, Tyrion and Cersei used her and Cersei through her out like trash. Also let's face it, on one level Tywin's death is everything Cersei ever wished for but didn't dare admit to herself. Not that she'd be unjustified, but she goes on emulating him. That is why it would be fitting. Both Tyrion and Cersei are carrying on Tywin's legacy. 

What do you mean "through her out." Shae was in it for money and status. About the only thing Cersei did to wrong Shae was withhold payment for her work at the trial, promising to pay her until she told her more about Sansa's whereabouts. Which is crooked but not actively tossing her out to the trash. The karma for that, is about right. Cersei's image of Tywin is threatened. Look at her reaction to Shae in his bed. It's complete shock and the image of her esteemed father fucking a whore is terrifying to her. It's not even something she wants to admit but she knows deep down, that he was a hypocrite.

I still think her dying just like Shae is sexist. Sorry.

[The Sleeper]

4 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

What do you mean "through her out." Shae was in it for money and status. About the only thing Cersei did to wrong Shae was withhold payment for her work at the trial, promising to pay her until she told her more about Sansa's whereabouts. Which is crooked but not actively tossing her out to the trash. The karma for that, is about right. Cersei's image of Tywin is threatened. Look at her reaction to Shae in his bed. It's complete shock and the image of her esteemed father fucking a whore is terrifying to her. It's not even something she wants to admit but she knows deep down, that he was a hypocrite.

I still think her dying just like Shae is sexist. Sorry.

Sorry, misspelling. I meant to write "threw" in reference to how she told the Kettleblacks to dispose of her corpse.

Also the whole issue is that Shae had very little choice to any of this and what she was in it for is largely irrelevant . Tyrion had Bronn basically kidnap her then unilaterally dictated the terms of their relationship. It is also not like she can say to the likes of Cersei and Tywin. The parallel exists in Cersei being used in a similar fashion for others' goals and no say in it. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

Just now, The Sleeper said:

Sorry, misspelling. I meant to write "threw" in reference to how she told the Kettleblacks to dispose of her corpse.

Also the whole issue is that Shae had very little choice to any of this and what she was in it for is largely irrelevant . Tyrion had Bronn basically kidnap her then unilaterally dictated the terms of their relationship. It is also not like she can say to the likes of Cersei and Tywin. The parallel exists in Cersei being used in a similar fashion for others' goals and no say in it. 

I dont understand why Cersei would be getting karmic payback for a crime Tyrion committed. It's just disproportionate to Cersei's role in the whole affair. I also think it's just simple to say that Shae was kidnapped when Martin said that she's everything Tywin thought Tysha was. Most likely the promises of gold kept increasing the more she played along, and she played along. Cersei getting used and thrown away sounds like vengeance porn. I dont think its that kind of story. 

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I dont understand why Cersei would be getting karmic payback for a crime Tyrion committed. It's just disproportionate to Cersei's role in the whole affair. I also think it's just simple to say that Shae was kidnapped when Martin said that she's everything Tywin thought Tysha was. Most likely the promises of gold kept increasing the more she played along, and she played along. Cersei getting used and thrown away sounds like vengeance porn. I dont think its that kind of story. 

It is not so much Cersei receiving the payback of Tyrion's crime, as much as she has internalized the mysoginy and thought ill of these women and regarded them as either whores or trash to be used and dispensed with when convenient without another thought as much as her father or brother does. She feels those women got what they had coming and never stops to think that the men in her family regard her in the exact same way as the women she considers disposable. It also adds to the reader's conflict. Modern emancipated readers do not get satisfaction of Cersei having to do a walk of shame, Tyrion fantasising of raping her, or as proposed by Sleeper being strangulated like Shae. 

I despise Cersei, for her complete lack of morality, even to her children, but Robert's abuse, her walk of shame and Tyrion's rape fantasy are not justice of her wrongdoing.

[Rose of Red Lake]

7 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

It is not so much Cersei receiving the payback of Tyrion's crime, as much as she has internalized the mysoginy and thought ill of these women and regarded them as either whores or trash to be used and dispensed with when convenient without another thought as much as her father or brother does. She feels those women got what they had coming and never stops to think that the men in her family regard her in the exact same way as the women she considers disposable. It also adds to the reader's conflict. Modern emancipated readers do not get satisfaction of Cersei having to do a walk of shame, Tyrion fantasising of raping her, or as proposed by Sleeper being strangulated like Shae. 

I despise Cersei, for her complete lack of morality, even to her children, but Robert's abuse, her walk of shame and Tyrion's rape fantasy are not justice of her wrongdoing.

I think audiences would absolutely get satisfaction from Cersei being murdered by Jaime or Tyrion. Theorizing that she's strangled like Shae, instead of stabbed or strangled in general, doesn't change that. There would be no conflict there, there would just be smug satisfaction. 

I think you are putting too much gender-based emphasis on her cruelty. She thinks weakness is a flaw, and that's not gender based. She looks down on weak men just as much as weak women. She uses both men and women for information in her plots. She is corrupted by striving for power, not by using women specifically.

Internalized -isms should be handled with care in stories. Imagine an author writing a story about a gay man with internalized homophobia - you don't have that man murdered in a hate crime just to show him how wrong he was. 

[James West]

On 12/27/2020 at 7:53 AM, The Sleeper said:

The misleading prophesy is a classic trope that Martin uses. And this is one of the most talked about. The misdirection here is I believe "hands". It does not describe the method of the murder but the murder weapon. And that is Tyrion's chain of office. The one he strangled Shae with which is comprised of interlocking gold hands. 

The fate of the chain as well as the wording also points to a potential murderer. The prophecy says specifically "the Valonqar" , not "your valonqar". Still, loads of people are younger brothers so that choice of word should be significant in that person's identity.

The chain was last seen around Shae's throat. Whose body she gave the Kettleblacks to dispose off. What they did with the body is anyone's guess. They wouldn't have thrown the chain away as it is made of solid gold.

We have therefore three characters who identify collective as brothers to the point most readers can't tell them apart in possession of that particular murder weapon and a certain grudge against Cersei. My bet is Osney. 

I don't believe this would happen soon. For Cersei to be at the mercy of Osney Kettleblack, Cersei would have had to lose everything, which is what the prophecy implies, so I imagine at some she finds herself in a situation where she is fugitive and comes across the vengeful younger Kettleblack. 

 

The prophecy is not complete rubbish.  It was on point with regards to who she will marry and how many children.  She is to be queen.  Checked.  She will marry a king.  Checked.  I would hesitate to give her this prophecy.  She might take it badly.  The witch was understandably not willing at first.  There is nothing wrong with your theory.  I am only questioning whether the Kettlebacks are important enough to be included in a prophecy. 

[The Sleeper]

3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I dont understand why Cersei would be getting karmic payback for a crime Tyrion committed. It's just disproportionate to Cersei's role in the whole affair. I also think it's just simple to say that Shae was kidnapped when Martin said that she's everything Tywin thought Tysha was. Most likely the promises of gold kept increasing the more she played along, and she played along. Cersei getting used and thrown away sounds like vengeance porn. I dont think its that kind of story. 

Not karmic vengeance. A parallel drawn between Shae and Cersei. In a sense Cersei was forced into her role no different than Shae was. Martin has already gone that way with the walk of shame. The things Tywin did plaguing his family. Wolith the connivance of his family, if you think Kevan was involved, which I think has merit. Cersei was after all pimped by her father for his ambition. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

2 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Not karmic vengeance. A parallel drawn between Shae and Cersei. In a sense Cersei was forced into her role no different than Shae was. Martin has already gone that way with the walk of shame. The things Tywin did plaguing his family. Wolith the connivance of his family, if you think Kevan was involved, which I think has merit. Cersei was after all pimped by her father for his ambition. 

I think you need to work this theory out a bit more, because the arguments are jumping around. First it was that Cersei will die being used just like Shae, because the Lannisters use women, and Cersei will know how it feels. Now it's that she already knows how it feels because she was exploited by Tywin, but she will die once again knowing her place as a high-class whore. I am confus.

If Cersei, in her last moments, feels weak, afraid, and prays for her life, that's enough. We don't need to add extra problematic layers of violence against women and vengeance porn to it. That's why I theorized that the valonqar is a place, not a person. I also don't see the need to add all these confusing Shae parallels to it. She already has a parallel with her by the fact that they are both striving for agency, as women in different locations in the class ladder.

[sweetsunray]

4 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think you are putting too much gender-based emphasis on her cruelty. She thinks weakness is a flaw, and that's not gender based. She looks down on weak men just as much as weak women. She uses both men and women for information in her plots. She is corrupted by striving for power, not by using women specifically.

yes, she thinks "weakness" is a flaw in either gender, but she's also written to believe herself the son in a woman's body that Tywin would have wanted, in attempting to hurt her female lover sexually as if she was Robert. Where she has the Blue Singer tortured for mere usefulness, her hatred for Margaery and despising of Falyse and handing her over for torture goes further than simply "use and discard". There is sadistic enjoyment in her thoughts and cruelty to women, which she lacks towards men.

[The Sleeper]

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think you need to work this theory out a bit more, because the arguments are jumping around. First it was that Cersei will die being used just like Shae, because the Lannisters use women, and Cersei will know how it feels. Now it's that she already knows how it feels because she was exploited by Tywin, but she will die once again knowing her place as a high-class whore. I am confus.

If Cersei, in her last moments, feels weak, afraid, and prays for her life, that's enough. We don't need to add extra problematic layers of violence against women and vengeance porn to it. That's why I theorized that the valonqar is a place, not a person. I also don't see the need to add all these confusing Shae parallels to it. She already has a parallel with her by the fact that they are both striving for agency, as women in different locations in the class ladder.

The bolded parts are entirely your own. I never said anything of that sort. I didn't speak about Cersei's feeling and I certainly didn't say about her place and her learning about it. Do not project. 

My arguments were these. The last line of Maggie's prophecy could very well be describing Shae's murder. As it prophecises Cersei's death there would be parallels to be drawn between Cersei and Shae. Yes, I understand the insipient sexism in comparing Sercei to the murdered prostitute, but the comparison can only be demeaning if you consider Shae and being prostitute as being worse than Cersei. And Cersei has done far far worse than Shae ever did.

The walk of Shame can be seen as a comment on that. Ignoring the murder, torture, the coup and starting a civil war that she is guilty off she is punished for sleeping around. 

Lastly, Cersei's family story is about violence in general, violence against women in particular and though she is recipient of it she has also embraced it and perpetuated it. There is nothing peculiar for her death to be part of the same theme. Regardless of whether it is done with the chain or not the prophesy calls for her to be strangled which is one of the visceral, personal, hateful ways of committing murder. So that much is a given. 

[punzerknacker]

10 hours ago, James West said:

I am only questioning whether the Kettlebacks are important enough to be included in a prophecy. 

I second this. I feel like the valonquar being a tertiary character would be a letdown for the reader. Personally I think (like many people) that it will be Jaime, because this will result in the most narrative satisfaction. (Not that I'm personally a fan of the idea I just think it's the most likely)

[Castellan]

On 12/27/2020 at 11:53 PM, The Sleeper said:

The misleading prophesy is a classic trope that Martin uses. And this is one of the most talked about. The misdirection here is I believe "hands". It does not describe the method of the murder but the murder weapon. And that is Tyrion's chain of office. The one he strangled Shae with which is comprised of interlocking gold hands. 

The fate of the chain as well as the wording also points to a potential murderer. The prophecy says specifically "the Valonqar" , not "your valonqar". Still, loads of people are younger brothers so that choice of word should be significant in that person's identity.

The chain was last seen around Shae's throat. Whose body she gave the Kettleblacks to dispose off. What they did with the body is anyone's guess. They wouldn't have thrown the chain away as it is made of solid gold.

We have therefore three characters who identify collective as brothers to the point most readers can't tell them apart in possession of that particular murder weapon and a certain grudge against Cersei. My bet is Osney. 

I don't believe this would happen soon. For Cersei to be at the mercy of Osney Kettleblack, Cersei would have had to lose everything, which is what the prophecy implies, so I imagine at some she finds herself in a situation where she is fugitive and comes across the vengeful younger Kettleblack. 

 

Quite a god idea, and one I haven't seen before. Kind of degrading for Cersei to be strangled by such a low level person in the plot! 

But there are so many candidates all any theory ever seems to prove is that the author has succeeded in creating the innately confusing prophecy. 

I try to console myself about Tommen and Myrcella with the thought that 'gold will be their shrouds' doesn't preclude fake deaths. But I know that's clutching at straws.

[LynnS]

6 hours ago, Castellan said:

The fate of the chain as well as the wording also points to a potential murderer. The prophecy says specifically "the Valonqar" , not "your valonqar". Still, loads of people are younger brothers so that choice of word should be significant in that person's identity.

Yes, the valonqar rather than your valonqar.  It sounds like a title of some sort,  It means little brother rather than younger brother, 

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - Cersei IX

"The maegi." The words came tumbling out of her. She could still hear Melara Hetherspoon insisting that if they never spoke about the prophecies, they would not come true. She was not so silent in the well, though. She screamed and shouted. "Tyrion is the valonqar," she said. "Do you use that word in Myr? It's High Valyrian, it means little brother." She had asked Septa Saranella about the word, after Melara drowned.

 

Of course this can mean younger brother as well.

It can also mean someone who is considered a brother by association rather than blood or by common interest as in belonging to a fraternity or brotherhood.  High Valyrian is not a common language but it is spoken by maegi's and other's associated with magic and sorcery.  So it could be that the valonqar belongs in that catergory.