Where the Undying and Quiathe tricking Dany when it comes to Aegon?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

So it's a very common theory that Aegon is not who he claims he is. Now honestly I think that the point of his story will be that whether he's legit or not is irrelevant, but leaving that aside, what is the actual proof that he is not who he claims he is? The way I see it there are only 4 pieces of proof

- Varys's behavior. His story of wanting what's best for the realm reeks of bs given all he's done, and with all signs pointing at Aegon being his endgame, it doesn't seem to fit if Aegon really is who he claims he is.

- Aegon's unlikely story. Why would Elia only attempt to save one child? What were the odds of such a plan happening had Tywin wanted to give them alive or Gregor not smashed baby Aegon's head in. All babies may look the same, but the real Aegon was pretty distinctive with his Valyrian look. So either Varys is a moron that lucked out with Gregor or again there's something he isn't telling us.

- The Golden Company supports him.

- And finally Quaithe and the Undying with their mummers dragon.

 

Now as you notice, the first three are circumstantial evidence, and don't necessarily imply Aegon not being legit, just that Varys is doing something fishy and unknown, which is no real news really (maybe Varys had a change of heart with the Sack and decided to make things right by the realm, maybe a purple eyed infant could be found, but not a half Valyrian half Dornish 2 or 3 year old (are we told Rhaenys's eye, hair and skin color?) and maybe the Golden Company really only just want back home). The only actual proof of him not being legit is in Quaithe and the Undying. And from that "proof" it is likely Dany too will think him to be fake.

But here's the thing, those are hardly the most reliable sources. The Undying, well you know, while Quaithe I see as Dany's Bloodraven, aka highly suspicious. So are those visions and warnings actually fake, meant to drive a wedge between some of the last Targaryens, with potential tragic consequences?

[Rose of Red Lake]

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So are those visions and warnings actually fake

Usually prophecies in stories are real, in universe, but the characters that receive them interpret them the wrong way. It's kind of pointless to make a vision fake when the character will interpret them incorrectly even when they are real. 

 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Usually prophecies in stories are real, in universe, but the characters that receive them interpret them the wrong way. It's kind of pointless to make a vision fake when the character will interpret them incorrectly even when they are real. 

Well Quaithe's prophecies definitely aren't always right or aren't prophecies, given that she predicted that Aegon, Jon Conn and Tyrion will come to her together, something that Tyrion threw a wrench in.

[Rose of Red Lake]

Just now, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Well Quaithe's prophecies definitely aren't always right or aren't prophecies, given that she predicted that Aegon, Jon Conn and Tyrion will come to her together, something that Tyrion threw a wrench in.

They could still come to her later though, just under different circumstances.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

They could still come to her later though, just under different circumstances.

More likely Dany will come to them, and Tyrion and Jon Conn sure as hell don't come at the same time as the prophecy suggests

[Alexis-something-Rose]

The visions at the HotU are legit, but the Undying also tried to kill Dany. It doesn't mean the interpretation we made of them are correct, and that includes the mummer's dragon interpretation that he is a false dragon.

I do want to point out to a different arrangement that we were given, though. The one in Dany V in ACoK.

"A dead man in the prow of a ship, a blue rose, a banquet of blood . . . what does any of it mean, Khaleesi? [snip]"

It's interesting because these four things might actually be connected. Except for the man with the grey lips that no one seems to really agree on, we can actually put names the the blue rose, the king with the wolf's head and the mummer's dragon.

And Quaithe. Quaithe comes to Dany in her second POV chapter of ADwD. Dany locked up her dragons between her first and second chapter. In her second chapter, six Unsullied and three freedmen were murdered by the Sons of the Harpy, but Quaithe gives her absolutely nothing about the people who are fighting a shadow war against her. Instead she warns her against people who are months away from Meereen.

If Quaithe has been keeping an eye on Dany, then she would know about this stuff. She doesn't even tell her if she's right about Reznak being the perfumed seneschal. 

Quaithe wants Dany to do what she wants her to do. She gives Dany enough to keep her guessing. She gives her enough that Dany might trust her. 

16 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Well Quaithe's prophecies definitely aren't always right or aren't prophecies, given that she predicted that Aegon, Jon Conn and Tyrion will come to her together, something that Tyrion threw a wrench in.

Pretty sure they're not prophecies or visions. It's Quaithe looking into a glass candle and giving Dany the rundown of the people seeking her out. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

26 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

More likely Dany will come to them, and Tyrion and Jon Conn sure as hell don't come at the same time as the prophecy suggests

Is the prophecy that specific? To me it just sounds like "you will meet these people in the future"

[Aldarion]

53 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Is the prophecy that specific? To me it just sounds like "you will meet these people in the future"

I think Quaithe tells her that these people will seek her out... except Aegon doesn't, he goes to Westeros.

And yes, prophecies in the series appear to be either misinterpretations (Melisandre) or possibly deliberate manipulations (Quaithe). Moral ot the story: don't trust the seer.

[Darth Sidious]

Young Griff is not Aegon Targaryen.  He will be one of the lies which must be slain.  Qaithe has no reason to lie to Daenerys.  The vision from the Undying have proven true so far.  

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

All Aegon’s are Targaryen in the readers eyes but not all Targaryen’s need be Aegon.

Bah, maybe Rhealla gave birth to a dwarf, incest ya know. Disguised the baby’s small stature as being premature. Mad kings gonna have it killed because he won’t stand for the embarrassment. So the Queen gives him to her friend to smuggle to safety. The Friends husband refuses to play a part in his wife “kidnapping “ of a prince.   Husband returns the child with wife in attendance. When she gets to court she changes her story and claims it as her own to save the child. King has her tongue cut out and sent to the silent sisters. Husband is crushed thinking she lied so he wouldn’t kill it and now bears the ownership as his deserved punishment. The King loves laughing at the man and taking his wife from him.

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

2 hours ago, Eliscat said:

All Aegon’s are Targaryen in the readers eyes but not all Targaryen’s need be Aegon.

Bah, maybe Rhealla gave birth to a dwarf, incest ya know. Disguised the baby’s small stature as being premature. Mad kings gonna have it killed because he won’t stand for the embarrassment. So the Queen gives him to her friend to smuggle to safety. The Friends husband refuses to play a part in his wife “kidnapping “ of a prince.   Husband returns the child with wife in attendance. When she gets to court she changes her story and claims it as her own to save the child. King has her tongue cut out and sent to the silent sisters. Husband is crushed thinking she lied so he wouldn’t kill it and now bears the ownership as his deserved punishment. The King loves laughing at the man and taking his wife from him.

Way to much baby swapping for this to be a plot line. What if it was the Queen’s child  and the tongueless woman’s husband’s bastard? Or a reason why he may think so? Could the death that is blamed on the child be Queen Rhealla? The Husbands punishment is the taking of his wife as a replacement by the king? “Queen” becomes reclusive in the widows vault. Always seen with a hood on. Husband plots revenge wile his  wife is hostage. Rescues his wife but now what can he do with her? She’s been “dead” for years. Denies it’s her?disowns his wife for being tongueless to spare himself the humility. Cut it out himself?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

11 hours ago, Prince Rhaego Targaryen said:

Young Griff is not Aegon Targaryen.  He will be one of the lies which must be slain.  Qaithe has no reason to lie to Daenerys.  The vision from the Undying have proven true so far.

Can't have Dany's rule be challenged. Must. Worship. The God Queen. And. Hate. All. Her. Potential. Enemies

[TheLastWolf]

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Can't have Dany's rule be challenged. Must. Worship. The God Queen. And. Hate. All. Her. Potential. Enemies

Then have to hate everyone. Coz all potential suitors and potential enemies. 

[CamiloRP]

8 hours ago, Eliscat said:

All Aegon’s are Targaryen in the readers eyes but not all Targaryen’s need be Aegon.

That's great for jinglebell!

[SerDuncan]

On 12/28/2020 at 4:19 AM, Prince Rhaego Targaryen said:

Young Griff is not Aegon Targaryen

Does it matter? The smallfolk will accept any saviour, the Lords will embrace the chance to flock to a charismatic powerful claimant and jostle for favour. No one is going to ask for DNA paternity testing. The Dragons accepting or eating him is no sure proof for anything. Dragons have eaten Valyrians, Targaryens and blood related ones over the centuries and accepted non Valyrian riders. Even Dany was close to ending up in Drogon's belly in the pit IIRC. 

On 12/28/2020 at 4:19 AM, Prince Rhaego Targaryen said:

He will be one of the lies which must be slain

No way to be sure with the amount of hints in the text being negligible. Dany may accept him as a consort because she likes the type, or more fundamentally to continue their incestous lineage. Her being barren ceased long ago I believe. Jon Dany shipping is simply impossible 

On 12/28/2020 at 4:19 AM, Prince Rhaego Targaryen said:

Qaithe has no reason to lie to Daenerys.

Is she Elissa Farman? Reason there then. Is she Shiera Seastar? Reason there then. Is she the three eyed crow? Reason there then 

On 12/28/2020 at 4:19 AM, Prince Rhaego Targaryen said:

 The vision from the Undying have proven true so far.

Nah nah nah. This particular vision is being twisted out of its context. And few visions will never happen. Shadows of what might've been. And they are more than just the obvious ones 

[Roswell]

Where the Undying and Quiathe tricking Dany when it comes to Aegon?

I don't believe so.  The Undying meant to keep Dany in that room. She was not leaving that place.  Why would the warlocks and witches bother to lie to somebody who will never leave that room.  They won't. 

[Aldarion]

On 12/27/2020 at 11:49 PM, Prince Rhaego Targaryen said:

Young Griff is not Aegon Targaryen.  He will be one of the lies which must be slain.  Qaithe has no reason to lie to Daenerys.  The vision from the Undying have proven true so far.  

Oh, he is almost certainly not Aegon Targaryen. And he is not a saviour of the continent - war will be between ice and fire, and he's got no dragons. But I don't see either Aegon himself or JonCon presenting him as a saviour, so that part is not a lie. As for not being a Targaryen, that alone isn't enough to prevent him from being an OK ruler. So I don't see why that particular lie "must be slain", even metaphorically, let alone literally.

[Jay21]

Varys' motives are very difficult to pin down if Aegon isn't a Blackfire.  That tv claptrap about being Westeros' first SJW doesn't pass the sniff test and given his switching loyalties BF conspirator is the only conceivable piece that fits (he hasn't betrayed them that we can see anyway).

My memory is a little fuzzy around Clash of Kings.  What was the Undying's apparent plan for Dany at the time she had those visions? They wanted to keep her there as some sort of prisoner/ vessel right? I would expect that if the visions Dany had were deliberate manipulations sent by them that she would have seen a Westeros that was just fine without her intervention -maybe because Aegon VI was carrying the ball. I don't think a deliberate wedge between Aegon and Dany would be the solution for them, especially if their plan was that Dany would never leave Qarth.

Quaithe is obviously Benjen Stark (ne Rhaego) the time travelling Faceless Man who built the Wall so her motives are much clearer.

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

On 12/27/2020 at 1:30 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So are those visions and warnings actually fake, meant to drive a wedge between some of the last Targaryens, with potential tragic consequences?

A definitive proof has not been given but the evidence point to Aegon being a Blackfyre.  Look into the Dunk and Egg adventure short stories.  A lot of the plot involve the Blackfyres.  I say too much for a Blackfyre not to rear his or her head in the remaining two books.  The issue has always been the conflict between the Targaryens and their Blackfyre relatives.  The two will have to reconcile because the overarching goal is to unite the people and work towards survival.  The Targaryens will have to bring the Blackfyres into the fold.  This can be done through marriage or by thoroughly trouncing them in battle.  Trounce the Blackfyres so that they bend the knee.  The Starks will have to do the same to the Karstarks. 

Short answer to your question, no.  They were not deceiving Daenerys.  Those visions are true.  Only the interpretation is subject to error.  The scene from the House of the Undying leave little room for errors in interpretation.  Lies and deceit hang over Aegon's head.  Quaithe is only telling Daenerys to be cautious.  The suggestion to take the eastern route instead of the more direct route is a good one.  Quaithe-Farman has been through that way and she knows what she's talking about. 

[frenin]

34 minutes ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

A definitive proof has not been given but the evidence point to Aegon being a Blackfyre.

Blackfyres are as real as Targaryen, when it comes to be or not to be dragons. More even.