Where the Undying and Quiathe tricking Dany when it comes to Aegon?

[sweetsunray]

On 12/27/2020 at 8:40 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Well Quaithe's prophecies definitely aren't always right or aren't prophecies, given that she predicted that Aegon, Jon Conn and Tyrion will come to her together, something that Tyrion threw a wrench in.

I don't think Quaithe "prophecies". I think she's using glass candles at the time to watch out for potential people wanting to come her way for her dragons. The glass candles imo don't show future or past, but are technological/magical devices that work like a spy camera in the present some sort. And at the time she was looking in the glass candle, Aegon, JonCon and Tyrion intended to go to Dany. But they changed their mind afterwards.

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

28 minutes ago, frenin said:

Blackfyres are as real as Targaryen, when it comes to be or not to be dragons. More even.

Genetically it may not matter but it does politically. 

[frenin]

45 minutes ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

Genetically it may not matter but it does politically. 

It certainly does not, A dragon is still a dragon, the Blackfyres have been called a lot of things, fake dragons was not  one o them.

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

Just now, frenin said:

It certainly does not, A dragon is still a dragon, the Blackfyres have been called a lot of things, fake dragons was not  one o them.

It will matter politically.  The Blackfyres have never held the throne.  It's the Targaryens whom the people see as their ruler.  Not the Blackfyre.  Well, you have some like Butterworth and Peake.  But they do not represent the majority. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

8 hours ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

It will matter politically.  The Blackfyres have never held the throne.  It's the Targaryens whom the people see as their ruler.  Not the Blackfyre.  Well, you have some like Butterworth and Peake.  But they do not represent the majority. 

Also keep in mind that after 5 rebellions the Blackfyre name is pretty much detested in Westeros

[broken one]

Blackfyre is dragon as true as Targaryen. At least not worse than any other dragon seed. The rest are labels, colours, trumpery.

So if mummers dragon = fake dragon, Aegon is not Targaryen nor Blackfyre. A Lysene / Volantene orphant, probably.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

6 minutes ago, broken one said:

So if mummers dragon = fake dragon, Aegon is not Targaryen nor Blackfyre. A Lysene / Volantene orphant, probably.

But if he's just a nobody why would Varys be so invested in making him King?

[Varya Lemoncake]

9 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

But if he's just a nobody why would Varys be so invested in making him King?

Probably because he's not just a nobody, but his best friend Illyrio's son begot from a Lysene mother

[broken one]

17 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

But if he's just a nobody why would Varys be so invested in making him King?

Because he's got the dragon look? Every worker or a cook may run a state if he/she gets prepared, so Lenin said. I am not absolutely convinced, but educated son of the worker/cook may be ruler as good (or bad) as educated prince, parents social position itself means nothing, talent and skill matter. I think our spider - lenin knows that.

Anyway, I hang on tightly to a tiny tiny hope we miss something and that "the mummer's" does not mean "fake".

[frenin]

45 minutes ago, broken one said:

Blackfyre is dragon as true as Targaryen. At least not worse than any other dragon seed. The rest are labels, colours, trumpery.

So if mummers dragon = fake dragon, Aegon is not Targaryen nor Blackfyre. A Lysene / Volantene orphant, probably.

Thank you.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

53 minutes ago, broken one said:

Because he's got the dragon look? Every worker or a cook may run a state if he/she gets prepared, so Lenin said. I am not absolutely convinced, but educated son of the worker/cook may be ruler as good (or bad) as educated prince, parents social position itself means nothing, talent and skill matter. I think our spider - lenin knows that.

Anyway, I hang on tightly to a tiny tiny hope we miss something and that "the mummer's" does not mean "fake".

That's not what I meant. Aegon seems to have been Varys's endgame ever since he was brought in by Aerys, maybe even before, probably before Aegon was even born. Therefore it is unlikely, nay impossible for him to be just a nobody

[CamiloRP]

2 hours ago, broken one said:

Because he's got the dragon look? Every worker or a cook may run a state if he/she gets prepared, so Lenin said.

And there are examples in real life that point to it being so. And if you ask me, I'll rather have a fry-cook president rather than a soldier president.

[Rose of Red Lake]

 

3 hours ago, broken one said:

Anyway, I hang on tightly to a tiny tiny hope we miss something and that "the mummer's" does not mean "fake".

If you care that much (I don't) you could just argue that he is the sun's (Elia's son) son = Aegon, and mummer's dragon = Jon or Quentyn 

[broken one]

53 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

And there are examples in real life that point to it being so. And if you ask me, I'll rather have a fry-cook president rather than a soldier president.

I had a president who was shipbuilding worker. Great union leader he was, he turned out to be aggressive, egotic ignorant and mythomaniac with authoritarian bent. He also elevated from non - existence and raised his advisor, a cynical marxist lawyer, who never liked 3division of power and other fibble from the rotten west. Now, after intensive christian and nationalistic rebranding he is de facto ruler of the land.

What connects most soldier presidents, the worker president and the dwarven advisor in the 90's? Moustache. So no moustache men in politics and we'll be fine.

[The Sleeper]

14 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I don't think Quaithe "prophecies". I think she's using glass candles at the time to watch out for potential people wanting to come her way for her dragons. The glass candles imo don't show future or past, but are technological/magical devices that work like a spy camera in the present some sort. And at the time she was looking in the glass candle, Aegon, JonCon and Tyrion intended to go to Dany. But they changed their mind afterwards.

The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a man’s dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles. Do you think that might be useful, Slayer?”

A feast of crows

Sounds about right. This is more a report than a prophecy

It doesn't make much sense for the Undying to be giving visions Dany. Considering the fact that they were in the process of eating her at the time. I can think of only two possibilities. Either the visions are uninteded side effect of the process or their method of subduing their victim by detaching them from reality.

[CamiloRP]

1 hour ago, broken one said:

What connects most soldier presidents, the worker president and the dwarven advisor in the 90's? Moustache. So no moustache men in politics and we'll be fine.

In my country we had three mustached presidents in recent history. The first one is the worst dictator in our history. The second one the first democratic president after said dictatorship, he did some okay things, some awful things. The third one is our current president, and tho he's a lot more centrist than I would like, he's far better than any other candidate he ran against and he's done some pretty cool things.

The worst (democratically elected) president we ever had almost died when swallowing a fake mustache during a Freddy Mercury impersonation. 

[Malgoth]

In any way, Aegon doesn't go to Daenerys or even plans to, which means that he isn't a mummer's dragon from Quaithe's prophecy. The same goes for the Jon "Griff'' Connington - he isn't griffin. More likely that it's Dany will go to them.

Quote

The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.

There is four possible explanation to this dilemma : 

• Aegon isn't a mummer's dragon from Quaithe's prophecy, just like I wrote higher.
• Quaithe are lying to Dany, so she would develop some kind of paranoia and see enemies everywhere and don't trust anyone, in order to create the same mad person like her father was (or Dany from the final season of the show). 
• Quaithe is incompetent prophet. From where she gaining her prophecies anyway? Shade of the evening is showing what you want to see; Dragon/Wolf dreams are difficult to interpret, just like R'hllor's fire visions.
• It's a plot hole which George R. R. Martin didn't know how to fix.