Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Monster_Under_the_Bed

Assassination attempt on Bran in GOT

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I don't know. I kinda avoid him except for his show critiques which are bloody fantastic.

I agree that it being just Joff doesn't work as it's a complicated plot and GRRM repeats over and over and over about how Joff is an idiot. He also blows apart the idea that Joff did it to impress Robert when he has Tyrion give his condolences over Robert's death, and Joff is like "who?"

Tyrion I goes into how Joff was obnoxious about Bran's fall so it's easy to speculate that Mance noticed and  masquerading as a singer went up to Joff with the plan and led him along to start stuff to get the Starks away from the Wall. Mance not really wanting Bran dead and only wanting the conflict started explains why the Catspaw was told Catelyn wouldn't be there when she was there all the time and how Summer somehow learned how doorknobs work as he'd been shut outside. Mance would recognize Bran for a warg and could let Summer in to make sure Cat and Bran survived the attempt to tell the tale.

I think it is no mistake that Tyrion descends the Library steps after commenting on the rare collection of Valyrian scrolls in the Library right before overhearing Joffrey and Sandor speaking...

Quote

His legs were stiff and sore as he eased down off the bench. He massaged some life back into them and limped heavily to the table where the septon was snoring softly, his head pillowed on an open book in front of him. Tyrion glanced at the title. A life of the Grand Maester Aethelmure, no wonder. "Chayle," he said softly. The young man jerked up, blinking, confused, the crystal of his order swinging wildly on its silver chain. "I'm off to break my fast. See that you return the books to the shelves. Be gentle with the Valyrian scrolls, the parchment is very dry. Ayrmidon's Engines of War is quite rare, and yours is the only complete copy I've ever seen." Chayle gaped at him, still half-asleep. Patiently, Tyrion repeated his instructions, then clapped the septon on the shoulder and left him to his tasks.
Outside, Tyrion swallowed a lungful of the cold morning air and began his laborious descent of the steep stone steps that corkscrewed around the exterior of the library tower. It was slow going; the steps were cut high and narrow, while his legs were short and twisted. The rising sun had not yet cleared the walls of Winterfell, but the men were already hard at it in the yard below. Sandor Clegane's rasping voice drifted up to him. "The boy is a long time dying. I wish he would be quicker about it."
Tyrion glanced down and saw the Hound standing with young Joffrey as squires swarmed around them. "At least he dies quietly," the prince replied. "It's the wolf that makes the noise. I could scarce sleep last night."
Clegane cast a long shadow across the hard-packed earth as his squire lowered the black helm over his head. "I could silence the creature, if it please you," he said through his open visor. His boy placed a longsword in his hand. He tested the weight of it, slicing at the cold morning air. Behind him, the yard rang to the clangor of steel on steel.
The notion seemed to delight the prince. "Send a dog to kill a dog!" he exclaimed. "Winterfell is so infested with wolves, the Starks would never miss one."
Tyrion hopped off the last step onto the yard. "I beg to differ, nephew," he said. "The Starks can count past six. Unlike some princes I might name."
Joffrey had the grace at least to blush.
"A voice from nowhere," Sandor said. He peered through his helm, looking this way and that. "Spirits of the air!"
The prince laughed, as he always laughed when his bodyguard did this mummer's farce. Tyrion was used to it. "Down here."

A Game of Thrones - Tyrion I

In this brief section a number of things are shown and hinted at.

The Winterfell Library has rare and valuable books/scrolls. (very dry parchment is flammable!)

While Sandor complains about Bran being slow to die, Joffrey blames the wolf not the boy.

"send a dog to kill a dog" is not what Tyrion later remembers to make the case in his head and to Jaime that it was Joffrey.

Joffrey is an idiot.

Sandor makes a joke about an invisible man in Winterfell, and we later learn that Mance is in fact secretly in Winterfell.

Edited by Mourning Star

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I think it is no mistake that Tyrion descends the Library steps after commenting on the rare collection of Valyrian scrolls in the Library right before overhearing Joffrey and Sandor speaking...

I didn't pay much attention to the library fire beyond a distract for Bran, but this is a device used *a lot* in the series. Seemingly random things mentioned in proximity may be quite important to each other at some point of the story, past, present or future.

Jon notes that literacy is extremely rare in the NW, so I think it's unlikely Mance can read. Don't recall if it was ever mentioned either way. But he could be searching for maps, info on the horn of Joramun, or someone could be sending him to find info.

6 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

In this brief section a number of things are shown and hinted at.

The Winterfell Library has rare and valuable books/scrolls. (very dry parchment is flammable!)

While Sandor complains about Bran being slow to die, Joffrey blames the wolf not the boy.

"send a dog to kill a dog" is not what Tyrion later remembers to make the case in his head and to Jaime that it was Joffrey.

Joffrey is an idiot.

Sandor makes a joke about an invisible man in Winterfell, and we later learn that Mance is in fact secretly in Winterfell.

Nice find about the invisible man.

Joff doesn't care about Bran one way or the other, but he does care about Tyrion and Tyrion cares. It's common for Joff to be angry at higher targets and to take that anger out on more accessible ones. In this case, Joff wants to lash out at cripple Tyrion for slapping him especially in public, Tyrion cares about Bran, Joff goes after the easier target of Bran to get back at Tyrion.

I'm unsure about the role of the Hound. It appears he and Joff had a very complicated relationship that's worth more attention. On the Hound's part, I think he's trying to relive his experience with Gregor-like Joff with hopefully different results. Joff lacks a father figure. As we see with Mycah, the Hound has no problem killing innocent kids, but as Tyrion says, the Hound would go to Cersei before Joff could start a war. But if the Hound was in the habit of going to Cersei, Joff wouldn't trust him. It's right there that Joff just doesn't ask the Hound to do certain things like hit Sansa, so I'm not sure he'd ask the Hound to take out Bran. Joff seems to be aware of the Hounds limits somehow. But the Hound being involved would explain his protectiveness of Sansa and Arya as guilt, but the more compelling explanation of this lies in the Hound seeing both his naivity and also bull-headed strength in the girls. I dunno. I talk circles around myself on this part. Ultimately, I lean on the Hound not being involved and the Hound was long gone when it went down.

Very favorite Joff idiot moment is when he names his sword Widow's Wail the day before he gets married. :lmao:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/30/2020 at 11:52 AM, Mourning Star said:

People of Sherrer, I cannot give you back your homes or your crops, nor can I restore your dead to life. But perhaps I can give you some small measure of justice, in the name of our king, Robert."

So much goodness in this quote.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Joff doesn't care about Bran one way or the other, but he does care about Tyrion and Tyrion cares. It's common for Joff to be angry at higher targets and to take that anger out on more accessible ones. In this case, Joff wants to lash out at cripple Tyrion for slapping him especially in public, Tyrion cares about Bran, Joff goes after the easier target of Bran to get back at Tyrion.

What examples of this are you thinking of? 

I'm not sure I know what you are referencing at all... Abusing Sansa? Doesn't seem to be in the same mold at all as sending an assassin.

It's just so wildly convoluted and nonsensical for the idiot entitled prince to hire an assassin, and equip him with a dagger for no reason, to stay behind and kill a cripple who is supposed to die anyway because a wolf is howling a lot (even though Jof would be long gone at this point) or because Tyrion told Jof to give his condolences to Ned and Cat, or because something about mercy, or because his dad might be proud of the secret he could never tell him? Never made a lick of sense.

Edited by Mourning Star

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/4/2021 at 11:18 PM, Mourning Star said:

What makes you so sure of this? The attempted killing of Bran certainly worked to distract from the library burning... no questions about why burn the library and no looking for another person involved. (edit: Obviously, there is also a motive to implicate Robert/Lannisters in a crime against the Starks since Mance plans to invade.)

The King's party arriving provides the cover Mance needs to get into Winterfell. 

As for how he heard... it doesn't take much. Word is sent to Benjen at the Wall and the news travels from there to the Free Folk.

Mance's ability to tell Jon details about the night, like who was singing what, is why we believe him in the first place.

So we know he was there and the timing question is moot... the wheel house and company moved super slow I suppose.

I find it much more difficult to believe Mance's motive was just to see Robert than that Robert's arrival was an opportunity for Mance to get into Winterfell.

I just finished the Jon chapter in ASOS so it's now fresh in my mind. Some good observations again on connecting the bag of silver though he says he buys a horse which is used to get ahead of Robert.  I admit the "bag" seems worth noting since I don't know how much a horse costs, but it's safe to say Martin could have just worded it "some" silver, so the bag seems noteworthy. I still say the fire is the distraction but whether it's to cover the assassination, to cover what was taken from the library, or possibly both, it's the fire that draws people away from guard duty.  If you mean to steal something while someone is being killed, you kill them first and scream bloody murder and then when attention is on it, you go and rob your library...not from first-hand experience of course.

I Have to read the attached "Catspaw Theory" stuff, but just in my opinion, I'd have Joffrey at the bottom of the list in the whole thing.  Why would Littlefinger lie about whose dagger it is if he didn't have SOME Knowledge of it though and it's highly unlikely Joffrey is connected enough or adept enough politically to bring someone like LF  in (even to know LF is a player).  Seems much more likely to be Cersei since she knows how to spread misdirection and to use her court to support plays.  LF seems unlikely to actively lie on something that he  isn't aware of true facts on as  it puts him in the spotlight if he gets busted. Not his MO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know this thread is maybe near done, but one point, question, was it actually estblished at this point that Bran would be crippled at the    time of the assassination?   Or was he still just in a coma?  I'm assuming it's established, but confirmation anyone?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Joffrey's rationalization does not need to make sense to sane person. He is young budding sociopath. The real reason was that he was annoyed by the whole situtation. Robert's little speach serves as a rationalization.

This is pretty much confirmed. Move on

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 1/6/2021 at 2:55 AM, The Sleeper said:

Joffrey's rationalization does not need to make sense to sane person. He is young budding sociopath. The real reason was that he was annoyed by the whole situtation. Robert's little speach serves as a rationalization.

This is pretty much confirmed. Move on

It isn't even clear Robert ever gave such a speech...

Tyrion misquotes Joffrey's "send a dog to kill a dog", in what appears to be an intentional discrepancy by the author.

Cersei claims that when it was just her and the children Robert said something about mercy, but that doesn't happen on page, and Jaime immediately questions it:

Quote

"Oh, don't be absurd." Cersei closed the window. "Yes, I hoped the boy would die. So did you. Even Robert thought that would have been for the best. 'We kill our horses when they break a leg, and our dogs when they go blind, but we are too weak to give the same mercy to crippled children,' he told me. He was blind himself at the time, from drink."
Robert? Jaime had guarded the king long enough to know that Robert Baratheon said things in his cups that he would have denied angrily the next day. "Were you alone when Robert said this?"
"You don't think he said it to Ned Stark, I hope? Of course we were alone. Us and the children." Cersei removed her hairnet and draped it over a bedpost, then shook out her golden curls. "Perhaps Myrcella sent this man with the dagger, do you think so?"
It was meant as mockery, but she'd cut right to the heart of it, Jaime saw at once. "Not Myrcella. Joffrey."
Cersei frowned. "Joffrey had no love for Robb Stark, but the younger boy was nothing to him. He was only a child himself."
"A child hungry for a pat on the head from that sot you let him believe was his father." He had an uncomfortable thought. "Tyrion almost died because of this bloody dagger. If he knew the whole thing was Joffrey's work, that might be why . . ."

A Storm of Swords - Jaime IX

Obviously, Tyrion did not kill Joffrey either... and it is ludicrous that a child who was beaten by his father for killing a cat would think the same father would pat him on the head for killing his best friend's son.

However, we do see a discussion of Bran and mercy in front of the children (Myrcella and Tommen, not Joffrey) on page:

Quote

Tyrion gave her a crooked smile. "Why, only that Tommen may get his wish. The maester thinks the boy may yet live." He took a sip of beer.
Myrcella gave a happy gasp, and Tommen smiled nervously, but it was not the children Tyrion was watching. The glance that passed between Jaime and Cersei lasted no more than a second, but he did not miss it. Then his sister dropped her gaze to the table. "That is no mercy. These northern gods are cruel to let the child linger in such pain."

A Game of Thrones - Tyrion I

And later in the same chapter:

Quote

"He could end his torment," Jaime said. "I would, if it were my son. It would be a mercy."
"I advise against putting that suggestion to Lord Eddard, sweet brother," Tyrion said. "He would not take it kindly."
"Even if the boy does live, he will be a cripple. Worse than a cripple. A grotesque. Give me a good clean death."
Tyrion replied with a shrug that accentuated the twist of his shoulders. "Speaking for the grotesques," he said, "I beg to differ. Death is so terribly final, while life is full of possibilities."
Jaime smiled. "You are a perverse little imp, aren't you?"
"Oh, yes," Tyrion admitted. "I hope the boy does wake. I would be most interested to hear what he might have to say."
His brother's smile curdled like sour milk. "Tyrion, my sweet brother," he said darkly, "there are times when you give me cause to wonder whose side you are on."
Tyrion's mouth was full of bread and fish. He took a swallow of strong black beer to wash it all down, and grinned up wolfishly at Jaime. "Why, Jaime, my sweet brother," he said, "you wound me. You know how much I love my family."

A Game of Thrones - Tyrion I

Side note, I love the irony and foreshadowing here!

When Jaime talks to Cat he even confirms that Cersei and Jaime discussed sending an assasin:

Quote

His chains chinked softly. "I seldom fling children from towers to improve their health. Yes, I meant for him to die."
"And when he did not, you knew your danger was worse than ever, so you gave your catspaw a bag of silver to make certain Bran would never wake."
"Did I now?" Jaime lifted his cup and took a long swallow. "I won't deny we talked of it, but you were with the boy day and night, your maester and Lord Eddard attended him frequently, and there were guards, even those damned direwolves . . . it would have required cutting my way through half of Winterfell. And why bother, when the boy seemed like to die of his own accord?"

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VII

It wouldn't be the only time Cersei conflates Robert and Jaime in her head:

Quote

"No man will stand before him." Margaery Tyrell gave the queen a coy smile. "But I never knew that King Robert was so accomplished at the joust. Pray tell us, Your Grace, what tourneys did he win? What great knights did he unseat? I know the king should like to hear about his father's victories."
A flush crept up Cersei's neck. The girl had caught her out. Robert Baratheon had been an indifferent jouster, in truth. During tourneys he had much preferred the mêlée, where he could beat men bloody with blunted axe or hammer. It had been Jaime she had been thinking of when she spoke. It is not like me to forget myself. "Robert won the tourney of the Trident," she had to say. "He overthrew Prince Rhaegar and named me his queen of love and beauty. I am surprised you do not know that story, good-daughter." She gave Margaery no time to frame a reply. "Ser Osmund, help my son from his armor, if you would be so good. Ser Loras, walk with me. I need a word with you."

A Feast for Crows - Cersei V

The catspaw wasn't sent by a lion at all, it was sent by Mance, the shadowcat (which marked him and led to his turning his cloak)!

Quote

Jon had once heard Mance Rayder say that most kneelers were sheep. "Now, a dog can herd a flock of sheep," the King-Beyond-the-Wall had said, "but free folk, well, some are shadowcats and some are stones. One kind prowls where they please and will tear your dogs to pieces. The other will not move at all unless you kick them." Neither shadowcats nor stones were like to give up the gods they had worshiped all their lives to bow down before one they hardly knew.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon V

 

Edited by Mourning Star

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Mad King Bolton said:

I know this thread is maybe near done, but one point, question, was it actually estblished at this point that Bran would be crippled at the    time of the assassination?   Or was he still just in a coma?  I'm assuming it's established, but confirmation anyone?

"Even if the boy does live, he will be a cripple. Worse than a cripple. A grotesque. Give me a good clean death."

A Game of Thrones - Tyrion I

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

The catspaw wasn't sent by a lion at all, it was sent by Mance, the shadowcat!

 

I like the bedding in the stable and the bag of silver being Mances. Can’t recall if it was one bed or two or who smelled like a stable. Mances possession of the dagger remains a possibility. Catspaw and shadowcat makes me think of the “Pet”name Cat. The grey rats and their pets. And all those who are paddling and wrapping men around their little finger.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/4/2021 at 12:02 PM, Crona said:

I don’t believe he actually says it’s Joff, he just says the catspaw mystery should be resolved by ASOS.

Edit: does anyone have the quote? I can’t find it through searching the web...grr

 

Quote

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Re_Congratulations

You should know that even after all this time, we're still debating things like who was behind the assassination attempt on Bran. Not to mention trying to figure out the four weddings, four trials, and two funeral.

The problem with all this speculating is that some of you are bound to guess the answers before I reveal 'em... and others may even come up with better answers than I do. Well, those are the risks one takes with such a project.

I will tell you that ASOS will resolve the question of Bran and the dagger, and also that of Jon Arryn's killer.

Two POV characters conclude that Joffrey is to blame in ASOS. Other theories might make more sense based on the evidence available to the reader, but to me that would fall under GRRM's remark that "others may even come up with better answers than I do".

Quote

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Forum_Chat

Did Littlefinger influence Joffrey to try and kill Bran?

Well, Littlefinger did have a certain hidden inflouence over Joff... but he was not at Winterfell, and that needs to be remembered.

While GRRM casts doubt on Petyr being involved, he does not refute the questioner's belief that Joffrey is to blame. 

The script written by GRRM for the show also points to Joffrey. https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2018/12/game-of-thrones-george-rr-martin-last-script-the-lion-and-the-rose

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/21/2021 at 9:36 AM, Nittanian said:

Two POV characters conclude that Joffrey is to blame in ASOS. Other theories might make more sense based on the evidence available to the reader, but to me that would fall under GRRM's remark that "others may even come up with better answers than I do".

Again, often misrepresented... Only Tyrion comes to this conclusion independently, Jaime simply gets told by Tyrion.

Neither supplies anything resembling evidence, motive, or even plausibility. In fact even Tyrion's assumption is based on a demonstrably misremembered quote.

Characters are unreliable narrators in ASoIaF.

Quote

While GRRM casts doubt on Petyr being involved, he does not refute the questioner's belief that Joffrey is to blame. 

He never says who sent the assassin, to my knowledge, anywhere.

Quote

Does it? Or does it do exactly what the books do, show that Tyrion leaps to this conclusion based on his own bias and odd looks taken to mean what he wants them to.

But in Martin’s version of the script, which expands on the implications of his novel, the culprit is clearly supposed to be Joffrey. When he receives a sword from his father as a wedding gift, Joffrey publicly boasts, “I am no stranger to Valyrian steel.” Martin then writes: “That chance remark means something Tyrion; we see it on his face. Before he can react, however, Joffrey brings the blade down in a savage two-handed cut on the book that Tyrion had given him.”

Joff is very clearly referring to Ice and Ned's execution with his Valyrian Steel comment, he even does the executioners swing with the sword made from the same steel.

Despite the commentary from the author of the article... it isn't at all clear that Joffrey sent the assassin, what is clear is that Tyrion thinks he did.

These are not the same thing. In fact, including this in the tv show would have been perfectly in line with Tyrion's mistaken conclusion in the books.

In Martin’s script, Tyrion doesn’t keep his suspicions to himself, either. After he comes to the “dangerous realization” that his nephew tried to have Bran Stark killed, Tyrion says: “Perhaps Your Grace would sooner have a dagger to match his sword. A dagger of Valyrian steel . . . and a dragonbone hilt. Your father had a knife like that, I believe.” Martin writes that Tyrion’s words “strike home,” and the king becomes “FLUSTERED” as he responds with “guilt” on his face: “You . . . I mean . . . my father’s knife was stolen at Winterfell . . . those northmen are all thieves.” Then, to underline it all, Martin concludes in his stage directions: “Tyrion’s eyes never leaving the king. It has just fallen into place for him. It was Joffrey who sent the catspaw to kill Bran, the crime that started the whole war. But now that he knows, what can he do about it?”

The knife was stolen

Tyrion sees what he wants to in Jof's reaction. Being startled isn't evidence of plotting to murder someone for no reason.

We have plenty of examples of characters coming to the wrong conclusion in the series, this isn't even unusual. What is wild to me is that so many readers can just accept this conclusion despite it making no sense at all.

It is easy to blame Jof, and Tyrion, as well as yourself, are willing to overlook the obvious inconsistencies and ignore the actual hard evidence pointing to another suspect because it is easier to just blame Jof.

But, in the end, even the show concluded that Jof didn't send the assassin.

Although obviously it had departed wildly from the books (was also wildly unsatisfying) and Mance was actually killed instead of being secretly alive.

So I have to be honest, all this only reinforces my belief that it was Mance who sent the catspaw.

Edited by Mourning Star

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Jaime simply gets told by Tyrion.

Jaime discusses it first with Cersei in ASOS Jaime IX,

Quote

Cersei removed her hairnet and draped it over a bedpost, then shook out her golden curls. "Perhaps Myrcella sent this man with the dagger, do you think so?"

It was meant as mockery, but she'd cut right to the heart of it, Jaime saw at once. "Not Myrcella. Joffrey."

Jaime later discusses it with Tyrion in ASOS Tyrion XI.

Quote

"Joffrey would have been a worse king than Aerys ever was. He stole his father's dagger and gave it to a footpad to slit the throat of Brandon Stark, did you know that?"

"I . . . I thought he might have."

The app published by @Ran with GRRM's approval lists Joffrey as well.

Quote

"Joffrey Baratheon"

... Joffrey steals a Valyrian dagger from his father and hires a servant to kill Bran.

I associate alternatives, as compelling as they may be, with GRRM's "others may even come up with better answers than I do."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

I associate alternatives, as compelling as they may be, with GRRM's "others may even come up with better answers than I do."

But George would not knowingly pick a worse answer, so in order for us to conclude that George decided that Jof is the culprit, we have to assume that George never even contemplated making Mance the culprit. And isn't it then a very big coincidence that George decided that Mance took a bag of silver with him to Winterfell? So his editor and people like that didn't notice this coincidence and asked George if Mance could be the culprit?

Also, isn't it a very big coincidence that Mance being the culprit fits so perfectly with the story, if it's all just an accident?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

Jaime discusses it first with Cersei in ASOS Jaime IX,

Jaime later discusses it with Tyrion in ASOS Tyrion XI.

Tyrion discusses it first with Cat and then Cat with Jaime. But you are right, Jaime doesn't arrive in KL until after Jof is dead. Although in itself this is part of what makes him come to his conclusion. I should not have said Tyrion told him though, they only discussed it later when Tyrion was telling Jaime he killed Jof (obviously he didn't though).

And you cut off the rest of the quote...

Quote

Cersei frowned. "Joffrey had no love for Robb Stark, but the younger boy was nothing to him. He was only a child himself."
"A child hungry for a pat on the head from that sot you let him believe was his father." He had an uncomfortable thought. "Tyrion almost died because of this bloody dagger. If he knew the whole thing was Joffrey's work, that might be why . . ."
"I don't care why," Cersei said. "He can take his reasons down to hell with him. If you had seen how Joff died . . . he fought, Jaime, he fought for every breath, but it was as if some malign spirit had its hands about his throat. He had such terror in his eyes . . . When he was little, he'd run to me when he was scared or hurt and I would protect him. But that night there was nothing I could do. Tyrion murdered him in front of me, and there was nothing I could do." Cersei sank to her knees before his chair and took Jaime's good hand between both of hers. "Joff is dead and Myrcella's in Dorne. Tommen's all I have left. You mustn't let Father take him from me. Jaime, please."

A Storm of Swords - Sansa IV

Tyrion didn't kill Jof and Jof didn't try to kill Bran.

And round and round we go...

The simple fact is there is no reason for Jof to steal a knife at all if he was paying an assassin to kill Bran, Valyrian Steal or otherwise, and the theory only falls apart more as one thinks about motive and opportunity. 

2 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

The app published by @Ran with GRRM's approval lists Joffrey as well.

If Ran or anyone want's to quote GRRM as saying that Jof sent the assassin to kill Bran then by all means show me the quote.

2 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

I associate alternatives, as compelling as they may be, with GRRM's "others may even come up with better answers than I do."

I associate GRRM with good story telling and not giving away his twists in interviews.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

GRRM remarked in the SSM mentioned above that ASOS would resolve the question, and he has different POV characters conclude that Joffrey is to blame. If he intends for it to have been someone else, then I don't think he did an adequate job in providing resolution for that storyline within ASOS.

Quote

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1047

Do we the readers, after having read aGoT and aCoK, have enough information to plausibly be able to reason out who was behind the assassination plot against Bran?

There's a couple of additional things to be revealed in SOS... but I think the answer could be worked out from the first two books alone, yes... though of course, =I've= known the truth all along, so in some ways it's hard for me to judge.

I don't recall off-hand any evidence that would indicate Mance as the culprit in the early books (his presence at Winterfell during the royal visit is only revealed in ASOS Jon I). GRRM's evidence for Joffrey isn't particularly convincing in retrospect, however. Barring any future reveals, it's just not one of GRRM's better written plots for me.

13 minutes ago, dbergkvist said:

But George would not knowingly pick a worse answer, so in order for us to conclude that George decided that Jof is the culprit, we have to assume that George never even contemplated making Mance the culprit. And isn't it then a very big coincidence that George decided that Mance took a bag of silver with him to Winterfell? So his editor and people like that didn't notice this coincidence and asked George if Mance could be the culprit?

Also, isn't it a very big coincidence that Mance being the culprit fits so perfectly with the story, if it's all just an accident?

It's a good theory, but it could indeed by coincidental; maybe someone could ask GRRM or Anne Groell at a future event.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

It's a good theory, but it could indeed by coincidental; maybe someone could ask GRRM or Anne Groell at a future event.

So of all things Mance could have brought with him to Winterfell -- nothing, a purse of copper coins, a parchment so he could write down all he saw, a hat with a nice feather, a bag of food for the trip -- George accidentally picked the exact same thing that he previously had decided that the catspaw was paid in? And it just so happens that the character he accidentally implicated this way has every reason to want to start the Stark-Lannister feud? If I was George and I had made this lucky mistake, I would retroactively decide that it was Mance who did it and scrap my previous idea that it was Jof. It's not like ASoS commits George to go with Jof as the culprit.

Edited by dbergkvist

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How is Mance supposed to get hold of the dagger in the first place?  It's in Robert's private collection in his private quarters, accessible only to family and trusted servants.  And why that dagger?  He has no idea if it can even be traced.   In any event, if it is left at the scene, it will probably be assumed to have been planted.

Bran's fall was on the last day of the visit.  They were leaving the next day.  So there would be no reason for Mance to still be there; he should have been well on his way north by then.

I don't find Joffrey as the culprit particularly satisfying.   Unfortunately, everybody else is even worse as a suspect, so I'm stuck with it being Joffrey.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/22/2021 at 6:05 PM, Nevets said:

How is Mance supposed to get hold of the dagger in the first place?  It's in Robert's private collection in his private quarters, accessible only to family and trusted servants.  And why that dagger?  He has no idea if it can even be traced.   In any event, if it is left at the scene, it will probably be assumed to have been planted.

The same way Jof is supposed to have gotten it, stolen from the baggage, which was part of the company Mance fell in with a day before reaching Winterfell. Except that Mance is actually capable of doing things secretly.

Quote

All in all I made much better time than Robert, who was traveling with a ponderous great wheelhouse to keep his queen in comfort. A day south of Winterfell I came up on him and fell in with his company. Freeriders and hedge knights are always attaching themselves to royal processions, in hopes of finding service with the king, and my lute gained me easy acceptance." He laughed. 

-

Tyrion guessed that the boy had just taken it. Robert had come to Winterfell with a long tail of knights and retainers, a huge wheelhouse, and a baggage train. No doubt some diligent servant had made certain that the king's weapons went with him, in case he should desire any of them.

The writing makes it hard for me to believe all these details are not intentional.

It is a priceless unique dagger, the only reason to have it used at all is so it can be traced. Presumably Mance thought it would point to Robert, but the assassin had been paid already and no knife was needed at all to kill a crippled kid in a coma.

Quote

Bran's fall was on the last day of the visit.  They were leaving the next day.  So there would be no reason for Mance to still be there; he should have been well on his way north by then.

This is a wild leap though, we have no idea when Mance left to return North. He may even have hid in the stables and left after the assassination attempt, we don't know, but I see no reason to suspect he had already left.

Quote

I don't find Joffrey as the culprit particularly satisfying.   Unfortunately, everybody else is even worse as a suspect, so I'm stuck with it being Joffrey.

Again, Mance has motive, means and there is hard evidence connecting him to the plot. Jof has no motive, unlikely means, and there is no evidence at all pointing to him. I guess I just disagree with your assessment entirely.

Edited by Mourning Star

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...