The Size Of Dragons

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

This is conjecture. There is plenty of textual evidence that Targaryens can bond with hatchlings. Aenys was sickly and weak, but improved drastically once he was given Quicksilver. The youngest dragons during the dance are referred to as ‘unridden’, not unclaimed. Baela was already bonded to Moondancer, she just hadn’t ridden her yet. Dany was already bonded to Drogon, she just hadn’t ridden him yet. The fact that Dany screams in pain at the same time as Drogon when he is stabbed proves that there is a magical, psychic link between them already before she rides him.

That just proves that Dany cares for Drogon and cannot see him hurt. If bonding took place before mounting then Dany would have been bonded to all her dragons. That being around dragons can be positive for the Targaryens is separate from when they bond with their dragons. Maegor was given a lot of hatchlings and rejected them all.

The important moment is when a dragonrider mounts his dragon, not when he cares for a dragon or hangs out with him. It does help when you are around a dragon since it hatched as the entire egg-in-cradle-thing shows ... but this doesn't make you a dragonrider.

[The Commentator]

Dany’s bond with her own dragons is unique.  She hatched them.  They walked out of the fire together.  She was reborn at the same moment they were born.  Their bond formed on that fire.  The dragons love her because she is their mother.  The relationship here will not duplicate what Visenya had with Vhagar.  V and V were not mother and daughter.  Theirs was similar to a rider to her horse.  Dany’s has that mother-to-children relationship with her dragons.  Expect a more flexible relationship.  There will be more give and take but deep love as well.

Dragons are not ducks.  Imprinting won’t happen with the first person seen by a hatchling.  Putting egg and baby in the cradle is a custom.  This is not necessary for bonding.  

[Daemon Blackfyre I_]

On 1/11/2021 at 2:24 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

Time and food.  Give a dragon a sufficient amount of both and they will continue to grow.  We also do not know the time span of the story.  I don’t think it will be 200 years but fifty is reasonable.  The dragons may not arrive in Westeros until after a few decades of growth.  True, that’s not enough time to attain the size of Balerion but that is not necessary.  Large size will result in a slower dragon. Size isn’t everything.  
 

Dany’s eggs came from Asshai.  Drogon may be a different species from Balerion. His rate of growth may be different.  

 

[Daemon Blackfyre I_]

On 1/11/2021 at 2:24 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

Time and food.  Give a dragon a sufficient amount of both and they will continue to grow.  We also do not know the time span of the story.  I don’t think it will be 200 years but fifty is reasonable.  The dragons may not arrive in Westeros until after a few decades of growth.  True, that’s not enough time to attain the size of Balerion but that is not necessary.  Large size will result in a slower dragon. Size isn’t everything.  
 

Dany’s eggs came from Asshai.  Drogon may be a different species from Balerion. His rate of growth may be different.  

You actually believe that the last two books will cover roughly 47 years that might be one of the most unrealistic projections I have ever seen. 

[TheTargaryenHistorian]

Very well, you’ve both convinced me and I admit this does make more sense, especially given how Drogon still burned Dany before she mounted him. It would seem that having a hatchling does lead to having some kind of connection because otherwise the hatchling wouldn’t stay close to their future rider. Morning must have had some kind of bond with Rhaena if she was well behaved enough to stay on her shoulders in the crowded throne room. Same goes for Drogon, Rhaegal and Viserion staying close to Dany and being affectionate.

So it is probably the case that hatching a dragon and raising the hatchling creates a unique, non-magical bond based on affection and a parent-child relationship. This is useful because it all but guarantees success when the rider mounts the dragon for the first time, as the dragon already knows and trusts them. But the end result is the same as mounting an adult dragon successfully, which creates the magical life-long bond.

This would account for Dany having a special, mother-children relationship with her dragons but leaves room for Drogon still being aggressive and disloyal until she rides him, which means they are now bonded.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

Very well, you’ve both convinced me and I admit this does make more sense, especially given how Drogon still burned Dany before she mounted him. It would seem that having a hatchling does lead to having some kind of connection because otherwise the hatchling wouldn’t stay close to their future rider. Morning must have had some kind of bond with Rhaena if she was well behaved enough to stay on her shoulders in the crowded throne room. Same goes for Drogon, Rhaegal and Viserion staying close to Dany and being affectionate.

The idea definitely would be that a cradle egg dragon, or a dragon giving to a Targaryen as a hatchling would have been very close to this person, making it very likely that the person could claim them as their dragon later in life. But before a dragon is actually mounted it simply doesn't have a rider yet.

You can draw that from the dragonriders who just mounted a dragon they didn't really know before. The important point is the first mounting, not whether they hung out years before that and had an otherwise close relationship.

And Dany is no different there. Her dragon is Drogon, and the crucial event there is her mounting him in ADwD, not the fact that she hatched the eggs or hung out with Drogon, Viserion, and Rhaegal before she mounted Drogon.

2 hours ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

So it is probably the case that hatching a dragon and raising the hatchling creates a unique, non-magical bond based on affection and a parent-child relationship. This is useful because it all but guarantees success when the rider mounts the dragon for the first time, as the dragon already knows and trusts them. But the end result is the same as mounting an adult dragon successfully, which creates the magical life-long bond.

Yes, and that's also how it is explained in FaB when Gyldayn mentions that cradle eggs started to become a tradition around the time Viserys I took the throne.

2 hours ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

This would account for Dany having a special, mother-children relationship with her dragons but leaves room for Drogon still being aggressive and disloyal until she rides him, which means they are now bonded.

They are bonded but she still has to take charge of Drogon. She does have trouble directing Drogon so far, which seems to be connected both to the fact that she doesn't have a proper saddle nor a whip, and to the fact that Drogon seemed to sense that she doesn't really want to return to Meereen ... or that he place/destiny isn't there.

But it is clear that Drogon doesn't leave Daenerys anymore, and he comes when she needs him.

And back to the Rhaenyra thing:

If she had known that Rhaena had hatched a dragon she would have wanted to see it. Her reason to go to Dragonstone was to have a dragon, not so much as a weapon - because it would take years for a dragon to grow large enough for battle - but as a symbol for power and legitimacy. Morning could have given her all that, regardless whether she could mount her. So we can tentatively say that Morning hatched only after Rhaenyra left Duskendale for Dragonstone - or at least that the news that Morning had hatched only left the Vale after Rhaenyra had already left Duskendale.

Because keep in mind that Jeyne Arryn and Rhaenyra were exchanging letters while Rhaenyra stayed at Duskendale. Jeyne would have mentioned that one of Rhaena's dragon eggs had hatched - and that alone could already have strengthened Rhaenyra's cause.

[TheTargaryenHistorian]

44 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, and that's also how it is explained in FaB when Gyldayn mentions that cradle eggs started to become a tradition around the time Viserys I took the throne.

I forgot about this, although isn’t it also *rumoured* that Rhaena, sister of Jaehaerys and Alysanne started this tradition far earlier? And the implication is that Vermithor and Silverwing were actually Jaehaerys’ and Alysanne’s cradle eggs? Either way it proves your point about putting eggs in cradles being a recent idea to help guarantee dragon bonding once the dragons and riders were old enough.

We know Rhaenyra was 7 when she first rode Syrax, maybe Syrax was her cradle egg and was therefore a similar age to Rhaenyra at this time? It makes sense given how Syrax probably wasn’t a huge old dragon when Rhaenyra first rode her as that would be a needless risk to ‘the realm’s delight’ and heir apparent. It would also explain Syrax’s origins which are otherwise left unexplained.

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If she had known that Rhaena had hatched a dragon she would have wanted to see it. Her reason to go to Dragonstone was to have a dragon, not so much as a weapon - because it would take years for a dragon to grow large enough for battle - but as a symbol for power and legitimacy. Morning could have given her all that, regardless whether she could mount her. So we can tentatively say that Morning hatched only after Rhaenyra left Duskendale for Dragonstone - or at least that the news that Morning had hatched only left the Vale after Rhaenyra had already left Duskendale.

Because keep in mind that Jeyne Arryn and Rhaenyra were exchanging letters while Rhaenyra stayed at Duskendale. Jeyne would have mentioned that one of Rhaena's dragon eggs had hatched - and that alone could already have strengthened Rhaenyra's cause.

This is true, and we know Rhaenyra needed more dragons as they were her only advantage (plus a symbol of legitimacy as you say, in F&B it is mentioned that the greens are concerned about Morning because even though she’s a hatchling she’s young and impressive and a powerful symbol, certainly more so than the wounded and dying Sunfyre) and she was losing them.

One wonders why she didn’t go to the reach to claim Silverwing for herself. Her only options were Morning and Silverwing and indeed Morning did come south with an army supporting the blacks but Rhaenyra was dead by then I believe. But perhaps she knew she needed multiple dragons, not just 1, and planned to take some eggs and hatchlings and go into hiding, or perhaps travel to the Vale where she would be relatively safe until the dragons were older and she could return and take KL once and for all.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

I forgot about this, although isn’t it also *rumoured* that Rhaena, sister of Jaehaerys and Alysanne started this tradition far earlier? And the implication is that Vermithor and Silverwing were actually Jaehaerys’ and Alysanne’s cradle eggs? Either way it proves your point about putting eggs in cradles being a recent idea to help guarantee dragon bonding once the dragons and riders were old enough.

It is a legend that Rhaena put in those eggs ... and it seems to be just a legend because Jaehaerys and Alysanne didn't put any eggs into the cradles of their children aside from Aemon, apparently. But nothing came of that experiment, since Aemon picked his dragon much later in the Dragonpit and did not bond with a hatchling from his egg. None of the other children had any cradle eggs, and obviously none of the grandchildren, either, since Rhaenys, Viserys, and Daemon all claimed adult dragons who had been ridden before.

1 hour ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

We know Rhaenyra was 7 when she first rode Syrax, maybe Syrax was her cradle egg and was therefore a similar age to Rhaenyra at this time? It makes sense given how Syrax probably wasn’t a huge old dragon when Rhaenyra first rode her as that would be a needless risk to ‘the realm’s delight’ and heir apparent. It would also explain Syrax’s origins which are otherwise left unexplained.

Rhaenyra was definitely Syrax's first rider. She may also have been the first Targaryen who got a dragon egg in the cradle after Jaehaerys/Alysanne (if that happened) and Aemon later on, although Laenor Velaryon may have been the first Targaryen descendant. He also had a dragon as a young child, and it isn't clear if a hatchling was given to him or if Rhaenys and Corlys gave him an egg. But since we have no clue it might indeed be Rhaenyra's sons who got the first eggs.

The first confirmed cradle eggs are those of Rhaenyra's sons. Alicent's children didn't seem to have gotten eggs. Sunfyre hatched on Dragonstone, meaning he didn't likely come from an egg given to a prince living in KL, Helaena claimed Dreamfyre, meaning she didn't have a different dragon, Aemond didn't have a dragon egg/hatchling until Vhagar. Daeron may have been given a dragon egg like Jacaerys ... or they could have decided to give him a hatchling.

1 hour ago, TheTargaryenHistorian said:

One wonders why she didn’t go to the reach to claim Silverwing for herself. Her only options were Morning and Silverwing and indeed Morning did come south with an army supporting the blacks but Rhaenyra was dead by then I believe. But perhaps she knew she needed multiple dragons, not just 1, and planned to take some eggs and hatchlings and go into hiding, or perhaps travel to the Vale where she would be relatively safe until the dragons were older and she could return and take KL once and for all.

I don't think Rhaenyra knew where Silverwing was ... and if she did, she couldn't have gotten there while her enemies were between her and Red Lake.

She certainly was tired and wanted to rest and find dragon eggs on Dragonstone, but they already had a plan how to retake KL - with the forces of the Vale and the North - so if she known there was a dragon in the Vale she would have gone there. Especially since her ship was going there, anyway.

[TheLastWolf]

11 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Dany’s bond with her own dragons is unique.  She hatched them.  They walked out of the fire together.  She was reborn at the same moment they were born.  Their bond formed on that fire.  The dragons love her because she is their mother.  The relationship here will not duplicate what Visenya had with Vhagar.  V and V were not mother and daughter.  Theirs was similar to a rider to her horse.  Dany’s has that mother-to-children relationship with her dragons.  Expect a more flexible relationship.  There will be more give and take but deep love as well.

Dragons are not ducks.  Imprinting won’t happen with the first person seen by a hatchling.  Putting egg and baby in the cradle is a custom.  This is not necessary for bonding.  

So that's why she had a mind blowing orgasm over the pit on Drogon as hundreds of people burned below.. 

Hmm. Thanks 

[TheTargaryenHistorian]

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is a legend that Rhaena put in those eggs ... and it seems to be just a legend because Jaehaerys and Alysanne didn't put any eggs into the cradles of their children aside from Aemon, apparently. But nothing came of that experiment, since Aemon picked his dragon much later in the Dragonpit and did not bond with a hatchling from his egg. None of the other children had any cradle eggs, and obviously none of the grandchildren, either, since Rhaenys, Viserys, and Daemon all claimed adult dragons who had been ridden before.

Perhaps Aemon’s egg didn’t hatch. I’ve done some digging and whilst I personally like the idea of Vermithor and Silverwing being hatched from eggs placed in Jaehaerys and Alysanne’s cradles, the first confirmed examples are indeed Vermax, Arrax and Tyraxes. However this seems to have sparked a sudden popularity for the idea because Helaena apparently did the same for little Jaehaerys and Jaehaera, with Morghul and Shrykos both confirmed to be hatched from eggs placed in their cradles. Stormcloud is also confirmed to be from a cradle egg, and so was Viserys’ egg that didn’t hatch. 

If I had to make an educated guess, I’d say Vermithor and Silverwing were cradle eggs for Jaehaerys and Alysanne, but other than a failed attempt with Aemon the tradition wasnt continued because perhaps Jaehaerys and Alysanne decided it was a better idea to create bonds between Targaryens and adult dragons to prevent more wild dragons and reduce the risk of a random dragonseed, Targaryen or not, stealing a powerful dragon. Not to mention the practicality of having adult, battle-ready dragons on hand from the start.

It seems likely that before Rhaenyra’s three sons, with the exception of Jaehaerys and Alysanne, all Targaryens bonded with dragons they’d been given as hatchlings or approached as adults/ adolescents. Given how suddenly it becomes the default way to give Targaryens dragons I’d say Syrax, Seasmoke, Sunfyre, and Tessarion were all given to their riders as hatchlings.

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think Rhaenyra knew where Silverwing was ... and if she did, she couldn't have gotten there while her enemies were between her and Red Lake.

She certainly was tired and wanted to rest and find dragon eggs on Dragonstone, but they already had a plan how to retake KL - with the forces of the Vale and the North - so if she known there was a dragon in the Vale she would have gone there. Especially since her ship was going there, anyway.

Ah ok I see your point.