Benioff and Weiss didn't necessarily make problems, they just made things worse

[Crixus]

On 1/8/2021 at 10:07 AM, BlackLightning said:

I think it's a very good chance that all of them except for Bran will die. As far as I'm concerned, Bran is the only one who is confirmed to survive the series.

 

 

Some really interesting posts from you (I especially agree with the fact that many people view doing 'good' as transactional, and the point re Trump. One of the milestones of maturity is in fact, realising that life isn't fair or just).

Just wanted to ask about your hunch 5 out of 6 main characters dying. Can you elaborate on this? For me, this would make the ending a bit too pessimistic (though I guess the manner of their deaths would matter). 

[Wall Flower]

On 1/26/2021 at 5:17 AM, BlackLightning said:

Well, on one hand that's realistic. Just because you are good, doesn't mean that you are entitled to only having/experiencing good things and that you are immune to errors, misunderstandings or stupidity.

Sadly, a lot of adults seem to still believe that goodness is transactional (i.e. if you are good, you get rewarded; if you are bad, you get punished) but no...that's childishness. Yet, you see that everywhere, particularly in the fantasy genre, slasher horror subgenre and almost all fairytales and fables.

Evil people can succeed and good people can fail. I think the point that GRRM is making is that the wisest, brightest and most successful people avoid both extremes and are capable of using "evil" methods for "good" purposes...or vice versa. The ones that come out on top in the end will be ones who can master the proverbial ice and the proverbial ice and use them both for good.

Tyrion has been flirting with the dark side for a very long time but Arya, Sansa, Bran and Daenerys are only just now getting to the point where they are dancing on the edge. Even though I believe that Sansa, Bran, Dany and Arya will ultimately choose good, it doesn't mean that all four will survive. Nor does it mean that they should.

Because even with the understanding that neither "ice" or "fire" are bad and both can be used for good, it is all about luck. Like Tyrion has never been the hero but he has been extraordinarily lucky. All of the Lannisters have been extremely lucky. All of the Freys have been extremely lucky. The whole point of Jaime's character pre-redemption arc was that he was extremely lucky in that nearly everything came easy to him. Littlefinger is the definition of extremely lucky. Under the leadership of Doran Martell, all of Dorne been very lucky. Same applies to the Vale. Look at all the slavers in Qarth, Slaver's Bay and Volantis: how do you have 1 free person for every 4-7 slaves and not have a minor slave rebellion every couple of years? Ramsay and Roose have been UNBELIEVABLY lucky thus far: unlike the rest of the lucky folks, Roose knows it.Jaime's luck, Tywin's luck and the slave-master's luck have already ran out, Dorne is just starting to run out of luck now and I suspect that Littlefinger, Cersei's and Tyrion's luck will run out in the final book.

Catelyn, on the other hand....extremely unlucky. Outside of birthing and raising 5 good children, nothing she did while she was alive (good or bad) worked. And even then, there's a good chance that only a small fraction of her children will become well-rounded adults who go on to lead full lives. Sad. Stannis -- despite how wrong he is most of the time -- has also been very unlucky for his whole life. Arya's story arcs in both Clash and Storm is about the tragedy of bad luck, a special kind of tragedy that is only visited among the smallfolk. Robb? Also very unlucky but he was also stupid and probably was sabotaged. Theon has always been unlucky, like Stannis, and his downwards spiral down into half-madness happened in slow motion; it was and still is painful reading about Theon. I'm always afraid that 

Ned was fighting an uphill battle with his hands in chains and a blunted sword...since he had the keys he needed to free himself but didn't use them, Ned ended up making his own bad luck. Much like Theon.

GRRM is just subverting expectations (the right way, mind you) by giving the bad guys good luck in the first half of the story and making the good guys suffer from almost every kind of horror and misfortune. Normally, in fantasy stories, the good guys either experience good luck and plot armor for the entire story or they experience brief hiccups of unpleasantness: either the mentor dies in the second/third act, the heroes experience the fourth act slump or both. The bad guys in these fantasy stories usually have bad luck but they persevere...until the very end where they ruin their own chances at success by excessive monologuing, by being too evil or by forgetting a crucial detail. GRRM simply switched it: the bad guys have all the good luck and plot armor and the good guys get dragged through the seven hells only to come close just to be dragged to back down into the seven hells.

I understand a big part of the reason why people hated Trump so much is that his success and imperviousness was an all-out assault on their worldview. Good people are not always thriving. They don't always save the day and get the "girl." Bad, sketchy people often do come in first place and they can have an easy, successful life. Not a fan of Trump but the worldview that some of his detractors had was childish. That is a major theme in Incredibles 2.

Thanking abusers? Well, the show is the show. Let's just forget about "You Rape and Torture Me So Good and Strong" Sandra. The whole Sansa thing with the Hound and Littlefinger. Honestly, the fact that is she is grateful to them -- despite their obvious flaws and villainy -- is a sign of her maturity. She's not ignoring reality so she can look at things through rose-colored glasses anymore; what is she doing now is looking at the reality and then romanticizing it. The Hound DID try to save her that knight. I don't think that they would've gotten very far at all...and even if they did, the Red Wedding was still happening, Winterfell had still been razed and Riverrun still got besieged. But it's the thought that counts and the Unkiss is Sansa's (weird) way of reconciling the beauty of the Hound's thought to save her. It may seem like she is thanking him for abusing her but that's not at all the case. You're just not paying close attention. Like @Rose of Red Lake said, GRRM has to sink the landing though. Because there is nothing wrong with loving songs and stories about knights in shining armor, exciting tourneys, good food and beautiful queens. There's a lot of good in dreams of spring. Sansa just needs to come to that conclusion, one way or another.

Glorification of psychopaths? HAHA. Please. Psychopaths are not glorified in this story. Where have you seen them being glorified? And no, Littlefinger and Ramsay are NOT always on top of everything. What story have you been reading? Roose Bolton is losing control of everything he has gained from the Red Wedding because of Ramsay. Littlefinger is basically hiding.

This is an excellent and thought-provoking post! Personally, though, I think that the author is much less cynical than the showrunners. I think the author is acknowledging the reality that good doesn't always triumph over evil but I don't think he is saying that it isn't worth fighting for - even if there is no expectation of reward or any guarantee that those trying to make the world better can remain pure in their motives or actions.

While the Starks have all the bad luck initially and the Lannisters seem to be triumphing, Ned's legacy lives on while Tywin's has literally turned to shit.

[Dolorous Gabe]

On 05/01/2021 at 2:47 PM, Angel Eyes said:

So why do people romanticize Sandor and Sansa? I don’t see him as much better than Littlefinger, they’re very similar outside of their skill sets. I’d be more likely to romanticize Jon and Sansa or Podrick and Sansa, to give examples.

1. Sandor and Sansa seem to actually have feelings for one another according to the text. You seem to prefer coupling characters that haven't been remotely hinted at in the text. By all means write yourself some fan fiction if that's what you want but it will only ever be fan fiction.

2. Sandor is complex. He has done terrible things in service to causes and people which appears to have made him cynical and depressed. One might see him as a lost soul trying to find a better path. Littlefinger by contrast is a sociopath.

14 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, the point I'm trying to get at is that the problems that were present in the show were present in the books, but the show made them more obvious.

GRRM seems to think that there is something wrong with the songs and stories; every minstrel or singer is either an asshole (Marillion, Dareon) or gets horribly tortured (Blue Bard), or both. People who like songs and stories get their idealism beaten out of them (Sansa, Loras, Arya, Bran, the list goes on). And occasionally they get turned into brown (Symon). I guess I take exception to that as a musician myself.

You're really taking offense to the portrayal of musicians? Really? The author names his series by a song, fills it with songs because he's always wanted to be officially referred to as a songwriter...

And you take offense to the fact he hasn't treated musician characters like they're special or different from the rest of the characters in his world?

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

1. Sandor and Sansa seem to actually have feelings for one another according to the text. You seem to prefer coupling characters that haven't been remotely hinted at in the text. By all means write yourself some fan fiction if that's what you want but it will only ever be fan fiction.

2. Sandor is complex. He has done terrible things in service to causes and people which appears to have made him cynical and depressed. One might see him as a lost soul trying to find a better path. Littlefinger by contrast is a sociopath.

You're really taking offense to the portrayal of musicians? Really? The author names his series by a song, fills it with songs because he's always wanted to be officially referred to as a songwriter...

And you take offense to the fact he hasn't treated musician characters like they're special or different from the rest of the characters in his world?

1. Dude, Sandor tried to rape Sansa and she is trying to fashion up memories of him like the UnKiss despite him bullying and belittling her almost every time they interacted. She imagines Lothar Brune as Sandor when he stops Marillion from raping Sansa. Does that sound healthy or real to you?

Yes, because all but one of the musicians we meet that have a name are assholes. In GRRM's world, not all assholes are musicians, but all musicians are assholes.

[Dolorous Gabe]

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

1. Dude, Sandor tried to rape Sansa and she is trying to fashion up memories of him like the UnKiss despite him bullying and belittling her almost every time they interacted. She imagines Lothar Brune as Sandor when he stops Marillion from raping Sansa. Does that sound healthy or real to you?

If he'd actually tried to rape her we wouldn't be referring to a failed attempt. I'm not getting drawn into this. Sansa fans with far greater depth of knowledge of her story nuances than either you or I have pointed out how their story can be considered romantic. Are they likely to end happily ever after? Hell no! But this ain't that kind of story.

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Yes, because all but one of the musicians we meet that have a name are assholes. In GRRM's world, not all assholes are musicians, but all musicians are assholes.

No, all musicians are just characters trying to survive in their own way. If you honestly think GRRM is making some kind of statement about musicians, I have no smarter way to respond than to say that such a position is ludicrous!

[Rose of Red Lake]

58 minutes ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

If he'd actually tried to rape her we wouldn't be referring to a failed attempt. I'm not getting drawn into this. Sansa fans with far greater depth of knowledge of her story nuances than either you or I have pointed out how their story can be considered romantic. Are they likely to end happily ever after? Hell no! But this ain't that kind of story.

Sansa fans aren't monolithically in agreement on this. There are Sansa fans like myself who think he's a piece of shit, that there is nothing romantic there, that his role in Sansa's story is overblown, and that he's more consequential to Arya's story than Sansa's anyway. 

He was in her chambers, drunk, lying down in her bed, holding a knife to her throat, demanding a song, Sansa thinks she's going to die, later he tells Arya he should have fucked her bloody. The creep factor is off the charts and the Sansa fans who find that romantic are woobifying the situation all over again.

[Dolorous Gabe]

28 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Sansa fans aren't monolithically in agreement on this. There are Sansa fans like myself who think he's a piece of shit, that there is nothing romantic there, that his role in Sansa's story is overblown, and that he's more consequential to Arya's story than Sansa's anyway. 

He was in her chambers, drunk, lying down in her bed, holding a knife to her throat, demanding a song, Sansa thinks she's going to die, later he tells Arya he should have fucked her bloody. The creep factor is off the charts and the Sansa fans who find that romantic are woobifying the situation all over again.

Speaking as someone who would have been in agreement with you before debating on this forum, I can absolutely see both sides of the argument. I'm not saying your perspective is wrong, I am however saying that those on the other side can absolutely display a valid interpretation of words and actions between Sandor and Sansa that supports their position.

[Rose of Red Lake]

43 minutes ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

Speaking as someone who would have been in agreement with you before debating on this forum, I can absolutely see both sides of the argument. I'm not saying your perspective is wrong, I am however saying that those on the other side can absolutely display a valid interpretation of words and actions between Sandor and Sansa that supports their position.

They aren't valid. The metaphors and parallels to BATB that I have seen pointed out, don't even fit the original tale. See what I mean here. Then the author says he was surprised how so many women (NOT ME) found the Hound a dashing romantic figure. If he was writing him as one, why would he say that? And finally we have the belief that Sansa is "attracted" to abusive men. "Sansa's type is the angry disfigured stalker!!!" says the comments in this tasteless comic, that punches down. I can show how the times when she thinks about the Hound is her wanting a BODYGUARD - not a lover - but she has very low standards because she hasn't seen real chivalry. She will find a bodyguard worthy of her in Brienne. Finally, the unkiss is her re-writing the trauma she experienced from him like she romanticized Joffrey or Dontos. But these arguments are dismissed for whatever reason. Really, I think because they are Hound fans and want him to be special. 

[BlackLightning]

On 1/27/2021 at 5:45 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Well, the point I'm trying to get at is that the problems that were present in the show were present in the books, but the show made them more obvious.

But were they problems to begin with? Or were they just things that you didn't like?

Every really good story needs powerful and/or compelling villains. Ramsay Bolton is not particularly compelling (unless you find his demonic behavior compelling) but he is a powerful villain.

You can't have a good dramatic, adult story where the villains look like inept idiots and the always-smiling heroes constantly run circles around the villains

On 1/27/2021 at 5:45 PM, Angel Eyes said:

GRRM seems to think that there is something wrong with the songs and stories; every minstrel or singer is either an asshole (Marillion, Dareon) or gets horribly tortured (Blue Bard), or both.

That's not completely accurate. What about Tom of Sevenstreams? Or Mance Rayder?

A lot of bad things happen to mothers in this story? Is there something wrong with them?

On 1/27/2021 at 5:45 PM, Angel Eyes said:

The fact that Ramsay is still on top, including the Pink Letter (I'm not debating its veracity until the Winds of Winter is released), Sansa romanticizing the Hound's attempt to rape her, speaks to that.

Ramsay is still on top because he is supported by the Iron Throne.

The whole point of A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons is that the "good" guys have to play it safe. They have to be sneaky and exercise greater caution. They have learned from the War of the Five Kings. The Lannister-Frey-Tyrell-Bolton alliance is too powerful to go up against for the moment.

Which means that the people in power will still be in power...for the time being.

Are you going to say that this doesn't happen in the real world?

[BlackLightning]

On 1/28/2021 at 2:01 AM, Crixus said:

Some really interesting posts from you (I especially agree with the fact that many people view doing 'good' as transactional, and the point re Trump. One of the milestones of maturity is in fact, realizing that life isn't fair or just).

Just wanted to ask about your hunch 5 out of 6 main characters dying. Can you elaborate on this? For me, this would make the ending a bit too pessimistic (though I guess the manner of their deaths would matter). 

I think that the very last chapter (or the epilogue) of the last book will take place years after the main events in the last books.

I think Bran will be a very old man (much like Maester Aemon, Old Nan or Bloodraven) and everyone else will have been dead for years, in one way or another.

I still think that some things will still need to be resolved in that last chapter, like the overarching mystery of the seasons and the nature of gods and religion. The best person to do that (outside of Daenerys) is Bran. And Jojen's prophecy about how the direwolves will be the last to die has to come true.

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

But were they problems to begin with? Or were they just things that you didn't like?

Every really good story needs powerful and/or compelling villains. Ramsay Bolton is not particularly compelling (unless you find his demonic behavior compelling) but he is a powerful villain.

You can't have a good dramatic, adult story where the villains look like inept idiots and the always-smiling heroes constantly run circles around the villains

That's not completely accurate. What about Tom of Sevenstreams? Or Mance Rayder?

A lot of bad things happen to mothers in this story? Is there something wrong with them?

Ramsay is still on top because he is supported by the Iron Throne.

The whole point of A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons is that the "good" guys have to play it safe. They have to be sneaky and exercise greater caution. They have learned from the War of the Five Kings. The Lannister-Frey-Tyrell-Bolton alliance is too powerful to go up against for the moment.

Which means that the people in power will still be in power...for the time being.

Are you going to say that this doesn't happen in the real world?

I don’t exactly read books to have myself banging my head against a wall or disgusted by the villains, who win every time. You don’t need a cast of characters who disgust you to have a good story. It’s one of the reasons why The Hateful Eight is seen as one of Quentin Tarantino’s lesser works; everyone is either racist, a violent criminal, a rapist, brutalizes someone under their thumb, or a combination of all of the above. Likewise the hopelessness of John Carpenter’s The Thing is one of the reasons why it bombed in its theatrical release.

I could say something about mothers in the story, like Catelyn’s maternal instincts resulting in ways that negatively impact her, like arresting Tyrion because she suspects him of ordering Bran’s murder or releasing Jaime just for a chance to see her daughters again. Cersei’s maternal instincts result in the ascension of a maniac who she can’t control and sees nothing wrong with.

Mance and Tom are the pick of a bad lot then.

I know it happens in the real world, I don’t need a book to tell me that. 

[Ran]

Read George's posts about music and musicians and, well, he loves them! He wrote an entire novel about the music that shaped his world, and repeatedly cites how songs provided the ideas for some of his stories (like "Bitterblooms")! 

This suggests that whatever you're taking out of his depiction of a handful of bards is not really intended as any kind of statement from GRRM. Especially since it's not really as straightforward as you say. There are singers and harpers who are depicted positively, and if they have hard fates, well, many people in Westeros have hard (or harder) fates.

[Nevets]

On ‎1‎/‎31‎/‎2021 at 1:17 PM, Angel Eyes said:

I don’t exactly read books to have myself banging my head against a wall or disgusted by the villains, who win every time. You don’t need a cast of characters who disgust you to have a good story. It’s one of the reasons why The Hateful Eight is seen as one of Quentin Tarantino’s lesser works; everyone is either racist, a violent criminal, a rapist, brutalizes someone under their thumb, or a combination of all of the above. Likewise the hopelessness of John Carpenter’s The Thing is one of the reasons why it bombed in its theatrical release.

I could say something about mothers in the story, like Catelyn’s maternal instincts resulting in ways that negatively impact her, like arresting Tyrion because she suspects him of ordering Bran’s murder or releasing Jaime just for a chance to see her daughters again. Cersei’s maternal instincts result in the ascension of a maniac who she can’t control and sees nothing wrong with.

Mance and Tom are the pick of a bad lot then.

I know it happens in the real world, I don’t need a book to tell me that. 

Three of the biggest villains of the early books are Joffrey, Tywin, and Gregor.  Guess what?  They're all dead.  They were killed by their enemies because of the stuff they did.  And they generally died badly or embarrassingly. 

As for other villains:  Ramsay is a relatively new addition.  He is protected by the power of his father.  Once that protection runs out, or becomes insufficient, there is a whole castle of people waiting to take him out.  Littlefinger has succeeded largely because he has successfully hidden his true nature.  Once somebody (most likely Sansa) figures out his true nature, he is going to get taken down as well.

Theon and Jaime are in a state of repentance and on potential redemption arcs.  There are certainly no longer villains.  Euron and Cersei remain, and we may get more (Daenerys, perhaps?), but to say that the story is full of villains that are universally successful is not quite accurate.

Sansa/Sandor:  If Sandor had tried to rape Sansa, he would have succeeded.  Even drunk on his ass, she is no match for him.  I think he was really in her room to take her away from Kings Landing, though in his drunken state, it is hard to tell.  And I've no idea what was up with the knife.  I don't think she was in any actual danger from him, though.

As for his criticism and belittlement of her, that was to get her to not see the world through rose-colored glasses and lose her naivete, something many book readers desired of her as well.  In any event, it doesn't appear to have caused her any real distress or lasting harm.

[Rose of Red Lake]

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

Sansa/Sandor:  If Sandor had tried to rape Sansa, he would have succeeded.  Even drunk on his ass, she is no match for him.  I think he was really in her room to take her away from Kings Landing, though in his drunken state, it is hard to tell.  And I've no idea what was up with the knife.  I don't think she was in any actual danger from him, though.

Pretty sure he was going to rape her if she sang the WRONG SONG. Jesus. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

@Nevets 

Quote

"I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf." - Arya XIII ASOS

So he TOOK a song and says he "meant to take her" and "fucked her bloody" - but he changed his mind. Creep factor 11!

And this sounds like the Hound:

Quote

“They slaughter their sheep and steal their chickens, and from there it’s just a short step to carrying off their daughters too (raping them) ...And the man breaks...He turns and runs, or crawls off afterward over the corpses of the slain, or steals away in the black of night, and he finds someplace to hide (Sansa's bed?!?!) All thought of home is gone by then, and kings and lords and gods mean less to him than a haunch of spoiled meat that will let him live another day, or a skin of bad wine that might drown his fear for a few hours. The broken man lives from day to day, from meal to meal, more beast than man. Lady Brienne is not wrong. In times like these, the traveler must beware of broken men, and fear them (because they are in beast kill/rape mode). . . but he should pity them as well.” - Brienne, AFFC

 

[BlackLightning]

@Nevets @Rose of Red Lake @Angel Eyes

Yeah the Hound is a major creep. I've never really liked him.

And let's be honest. The TV show version of the Hound was a watered down version of the book version. And I liked the show version better than I liked the book version: still a creep but...

[Rose of Red Lake]

4 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

@Nevets @Rose of Red Lake @Angel Eyes

Yeah the Hound is a major creep. I've never really liked him.

And let's be honest. The TV show version of the Hound was a watered down version of the book version. And I liked the show version better than I liked the book version: still a creep but...

Yeah I dont mind him as much in the show. What are your thoughts on this deleted scene?

To get back to OP's original topic, GRRM's complete obliviousness to women who like "the bad boys" meant that people weren't perceiving characters like Sandor and Theon the way he intended. He talks about it here. 

"Maybe I should not have --" should not have done what George? 

[Mystical]

On 2/2/2021 at 5:17 AM, Nevets said:

If Sandor had tried to rape Sansa, he would have succeeded.  Even drunk on his ass, she is no match for him.

Intention is intention regardless of the result IMO. Sandor is no different than Tyrion in that regard. Tyrion absolutely intended to rape his 12 year old prisoner child bride. And the reason why he stopped had nothing to do with it being wrong or to do Sansa a solid and being decent to her. Her reaction to the situation is what put Tyrion off and why he stopped. Why shouldn't the same be true of Sandor? You don't lie down in some girl's bed, throw her on the bed and put a knife to her throat if all you wanted was a good bye song. Tyrion had his issues preventing him from going through, why should the same not be true of the Hound as well? Still doesn't change the original intention though.

[Angel Eyes]

16 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yeah I dont mind him as much in the show. What are your thoughts on this deleted scene?

To get back to OP's original topic, GRRM's complete obliviousness to women who like "the bad boys" meant that people weren't perceiving characters like Sandor and Theon the way he intended. He talks about it here. 

"Maybe I should not have --" should not have done what George? 

Well, it just so happens that a lot of the guys Sansa is attracted to are assholes, like Waymar, Joffrey, Loras, and The Hound. And Sansa’s already hit her nadir as far as men were concerned, what with the “No one will marry me for love”.
 

Littlefinger’s attraction is more selfishness than love, to quote Dr. Watson’s assessment of Bob Carruthers’ “love” for his employee Violet Smith in The Adventure of the Solitary Cyclist.

[Rose of Red Lake]

4 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, it just so happens that a lot of the guys Sansa is attracted to are assholes, like Waymar, Joffrey, Loras, and The Hound. And Sansa’s already hit her nadir as far as men were concerned, what with the “No one will marry me for love”.
 

Littlefinger’s attraction is more selfishness than love, to quote Dr. Watson’s assessment of Bob Carruthers’ “love” for his employee Violet Smith in The Adventure of the Solitary Cyclist.

I do hope Sansa is on an arc to find a more realistic form of love. Just as she is learning how some men are trash and that life isnt a Harlequin romance novel, readers are romanticizing Jaime, Theon, and the Hound, and the author is puzzled by this.