Benioff and Weiss didn't necessarily make problems, they just made things worse

[Angel Eyes]

On 2/1/2021 at 11:17 PM, Nevets said:

Three of the biggest villains of the early books are Joffrey, Tywin, and Gregor.  Guess what?  They're all dead.  They were killed by their enemies because of the stuff they did.  And they generally died badly or embarrassingly. 

As for other villains:  Ramsay is a relatively new addition.  He is protected by the power of his father.  Once that protection runs out, or becomes insufficient, there is a whole castle of people waiting to take him out.  Littlefinger has succeeded largely because he has successfully hidden his true nature.  Once somebody (most likely Sansa) figures out his true nature, he is going to get taken down as well.

Theon and Jaime are in a state of repentance and on potential redemption arcs.  There are certainly no longer villains.  Euron and Cersei remain, and we may get more (Daenerys, perhaps?), but to say that the story is full of villains that are universally successful is not quite accurate.

The Mountain’s still out there.

That’s an if; as the story stands and Martin is unlikely to finish, both are still on top and are likely to still be on top.

Jaime’s newfound honor is leading him to trust Brienne, who is leading him into a trap.

 

[Wouter]

Littlefinger and Ramsay hardly came out on top in the show, did they? And nor would they come out on top in the books, in the very unlikely event those ever get finished. Ramsay is already faltering by the end of AFFC. And that Sansa will eventually turn on Littlefinger, getting him killed in the process, has been quite clear in the books, too.

One thing that looks bad though, is Dany's apparent turn to villainy by the end. Though the why's and how's would likely be different in the books (which had Dany go full psychopath), I doubt D&D came up with Jon killing Dany by themselves. That's not a very nice ending. In that sense, maybe ASOIAF is a bit nihilistic, or would be. OTOH, looks like the Starks come back out on top in the end, certainly not the Boltons. 

[Apoplexy]

On 2/6/2021 at 3:20 PM, Wouter said:

Littlefinger and Ramsay hardly came out on top in the show, did they? And nor would they come out on top in the books, in the very unlikely event those ever get finished. Ramsay is already faltering by the end of AFFC. And that Sansa will eventually turn on Littlefinger, getting him killed in the process, has been quite clear in the books, too.

 

My problem wasn't that villains outright came on top in the show. It's that whoever was alive at the end stayed alive largely by questionable means. Qualities like honor, repentance, redemption and evolution had no importance in the end. And this largely reflects the sentiment expressed in the books. Unless the books change drastically in tone towards the end, if they ever get finished.

[BlackLightning]

On 2/4/2021 at 11:12 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yeah I dont mind him as much in the show. What are your thoughts on this deleted scene?

To get back to OP's original topic, GRRM's complete obliviousness to women who like "the bad boys" meant that people weren't perceiving characters like Sandor and Theon the way he intended. He talks about it here. 

"Maybe I should not have --" should not have done what George? 

Yeah that's the book version of the Hound right there

Women are really confusing in how so many of them get so entangled and obsessed with bad boys. And when I say bad boys, I mean the really bad ones.

But by whatever means, the fact that Sansa attracts a lot of dashing assholes is actually completely realistic.

On 2/5/2021 at 8:24 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

I do hope Sansa is on an arc to find a more realistic form of love. Just as she is learning how some men are trash and that life isnt a Harlequin romance novel, readers are romanticizing Jaime, Theon, and the Hound, and the author is puzzled by this. 

Me too.

I do think that the fact that Sansa has had so many romantic problems and how she attracts a lot of dashing assholes and beautiful monsters are both completely realistic.

The saddest thing about Sansa's arc is that she has had chances at true love and happiness. Sansa will know what it is when she sees it because she saw it between Oberyn Martell and Ellaria Sand and again with her own parents. There's a really great connection she has with Lancel Lannister and all of Mace Tyrell's sons had circumstances been different. Willas and Sansa is a great match.

On 2/8/2021 at 6:30 PM, Apoplexy said:

Unless the books change drastically in tone towards the end, if they ever get finished.

Well we are headed for at least two more changes in tones.

The Winds of Winter is already established to be dark and, let's be honest...why wouldn't it be? Look at what's happening.

I think most of A Dream of Spring is going to be more of a horror novel than a fantasy novel what with Westeros being the epicenter of the apocalypse with beasts, demons, zombies and scary foreign invaders overrunning the continent. But I think A Dream of Spring, as the title suggests, will have a tone of hopefulness in spite of the horror.

I think Sansa and Bran will have the final say in the book and the two of them are both beautiful souls with hopeful dispositions.

[Angel Eyes]

On 2/6/2021 at 4:20 PM, Wouter said:

Littlefinger and Ramsay hardly came out on top in the show, did they? And nor would they come out on top in the books, in the very unlikely event those ever get finished. Ramsay is already faltering by the end of AFFC. And that Sansa will eventually turn on Littlefinger, getting him killed in the process, has been quite clear in the books, too.

One thing that looks bad though, is Dany's apparent turn to villainy by the end. Though the why's and how's would likely be different in the books (which had Dany go full psychopath), I doubt D&D came up with Jon killing Dany by themselves. That's not a very nice ending. In that sense, maybe ASOIAF is a bit nihilistic, or would be. OTOH, looks like the Starks come back out on top in the end, certainly not the Boltons. 

It's looking that way right now; what I've been arguing is that Game of Thrones built on nihilism present in ASOIAF.

[BlackLightning]

On 2/14/2021 at 4:07 PM, Angel Eyes said:

It's looking that way right now; what I've been arguing is that Game of Thrones built on nihilism present in ASOIAF.

What I (and some of the others in the thread) have been arguing is that the thing in ASOIAF that you are calling nihilism is actually realism.

Evil people in positions of power and/or escaping justice is not nihilistic. It's the cold, hard reality of the world we live in.

The reality of the situation (and what I think GRRM is getting at) is that just because you are good doesn't mean you will triumph over evil. Being a nice guy doesn't mean that you are entitled to getting the girl (as if women are merely prizes). To triumph over evil, you need to be both good and smart and prepared and willing/able to fight back.

[HoodedCrow]

To be really good and effective, you need to get out of the House of Black and White and embrace the grey. Yes, it’s too bad that Sansa didn’t end up with Willas. However, no conflict, no story. She had a crush on Joffrey and Loras...so, she is not to be trusted, yet. 

[Angel Eyes]

31 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

What I (and some of the others in the thread) have been arguing is that the thing in ASOIAF that you are calling nihilism is actually realism.

Evil people in positions of power and/or escaping justice is not nihilistic. It's the cold, hard reality of the world we live in.

The reality of the situation (and what I think GRRM is getting at) is that just because you are good doesn't mean you will triumph over evil. Being a nice guy doesn't mean that you are entitled to getting the girl (as if women are merely prizes). To triumph over evil, you need to be both good and smart and prepared and willing/able to fight back.

So how do you explain contrivances like “Rodrik forgot about Ramsay”? I don’t see any way out for the main characters outside of being evil. And at the rate GRRM is at, they’ll stay that way.

[Ran]

Rodrik forgot about Ramsay, in what sense? He believed Ramsay was dead. That Ramsay is dead does not mean that the Bolton garrison at the Dreadfort just vanishes. There was probably a castellan or some such who ran things for Lord Roose, and I guess he assumed that's who it was who was leading the force to join the siege. 

[Angel Eyes]

6 minutes ago, Ran said:

Rodrik forgot about Ramsay, in what sense? He believed Ramsay was dead. That Ramsay is dead does not mean that the Bolton garrison at the Dreadfort just vanishes. There was probably a castellan or some such who ran things for Lord Roose, and I guess he assumed that's who it was who was leading the force to join the siege. 

With that armor Ramsay had? It makes him stand out; not even Rodrik, who was castellan of Winterfell, has armor like that.

[Ran]

5 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

With that armor Ramsay had? It makes him stand out; not even Rodrik, who was castellan of Winterfell, has armor like that.

Ser Marlon, commander of the White Harbor garrison, had equally-ornate armor. There's no reason to think some favored castellan, or perhaps some cousin or other, wouldn't have armor like that.

Regardless, he believed Ramsay was dead. He did not "forget" him.

[BlackLightning]

24 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So how do you explain contrivances like “Rodrik forgot about Ramsay”? I don’t see any way out for the main characters outside of being evil. And at the rate GRRM is at, they’ll stay that way.

When did Rodrik forget about Ramsay? When does the text imply or say that Rodrik forgot about Ramsay.

LOL are you reading the story.

He didn't forget.

He thought he had killed Ramsay Snow when he in fact killed Reek in disguise. So can you blame him for thinking that the approaching Bolton army was joining him?

Because he clearly could not imagine that the Bolton army was coming to the aid of the real Ramasy Snow (on the orders of Roose Bolton, no less) who had been inside Winterfell. While people were horrified at the actions of Ramsay Snow, they never thought that Roose Bolton would turn a blind eye or even support such treachery?

Because let's be honest. Ramsay Snow could not do what he did without Roose Bolton co-signing and playing an active role. Just like Walder Frey could not do what he did without Tywin Lannister co-signing and playing an active role.

Ramsay - and dare I say, Roose - played a damn good game but he is a one-trick pony.

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 2/9/2021 at 5:12 PM, BlackLightning said:

Women are really confusing in how so many of them get so entangled and obsessed with bad boys. And when I say bad boys, I mean the really bad ones.

I mean, most women dont look for dates at their local penitentiary, which, if Sandor was living in the modern day, is where he'd be. I think they feel like its safer to fantasize about those types in fiction. I worry for Sansa. This is ASOIAF, and Martin said he wasnt interested in writing stories where the heroine never gets raped. 

I think the Arianne / Darkstar thing was the author's response to the female fans who romantize bad boys. 

On 2/9/2021 at 5:12 PM, BlackLightning said:

Willas and Sansa is a great match.

He seems nice, but we've never met him. The Tyrells really wanted it really badly, and I dont trust them. 

[BlackLightning]

19 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

This is ASOIAF, and Martin said he wasnt interested in writing stories where the heroine never gets raped.

Really?

But I thought the caveat was that Martin said that he would never allow a heroine (or hero) to be raped in real-time in their own POV

Where did I hear that from? Or am I just making that up?

[Rose of Red Lake]

10 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Really?

But I thought the caveat was that Martin said that he would never allow a heroine (or hero) to be raped in real-time in their own POV

Where did I hear that from? Or am I just making that up?

I would really like to see the source for that POV rape quote. I haven't found it. 

The quote about the heroine being raped came from a 2018 interview.

[Angel Eyes]

20 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I mean, most women dont look for dates at their local penitentiary, which, if Sandor was living in the modern day, is where he'd be. I think they feel like its safer to fantasize about those types in fiction. I worry for Sansa. This is ASOIAF, and Martin said he wasnt interested in writing stories where the heroine never gets raped. 

I think the Arianne / Darkstar thing was the author's response to the female fans who romantize bad boys. 

He seems nice, but we've never met him. The Tyrells really wanted it really badly, and I dont trust them. 

Well, in the Sansa case we were more inside Theon's POV since the focus was on him.

[Lord Varys]

I guess we can consider Rodrik Cassel to be somewhat naive to assume that the Dreadfort men would come to help him retake Winterfell after what he had earlier pulled with Roose Bolton's son and castellan. That is definitely a plot convenience.

One can assume that Ramsay being a criminal monster justified what Rodrik thought he did to him ... but in this feudal framework one could also go with the notion that a mere castellan interfered with noble affairs in this case, murdering the son of one of the most powerful lords in the North. And that could certainly trigger payback and vengeance on the side of the Boltons.

Regardless whether Ramsay Snow is still alive or not.

If we had reason to assume that Rodrik also called on the Boltons, specifically, to help him retake Winterfell then things would be somewhat different. Then he would expect them to show up. Although my guess would be that Rodrik never directly approached them.

[Angel Eyes]

On 2/21/2021 at 5:52 AM, Lord Varys said:

I guess we can consider Rodrik Cassel to be somewhat naive to assume that the Dreadfort men would come to help him retake Winterfell after what he had earlier pulled with Roose Bolton's son and castellan. That is definitely a plot convenience.

One can assume that Ramsay being a criminal monster justified what Rodrik thought he did to him ... but in this feudal framework one could also go with the notion that a mere castellan interfered with noble affairs in this case, murdering the son of one of the most powerful lords in the North. And that could certainly trigger payback and vengeance on the side of the Boltons.

Regardless whether Ramsay Snow is still alive or not.

If we had reason to assume that Rodrik also called on the Boltons, specifically, to help him retake Winterfell then things would be somewhat different. Then he would expect them to show up. Although my guess would be that Rodrik never directly approached them.

I think Rodrik made a general call for assistance, but why he wasn’t more suspicious of the finely armored figure leading the Bolton men, I do not know.

 

On 2/19/2021 at 8:56 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

I mean, most women dont look for dates at their local penitentiary, which, if Sandor was living in the modern day, is where he'd be. I think they feel like its safer to fantasize about those types in fiction. I worry for Sansa. This is ASOIAF, and Martin said he wasnt interested in writing stories where the heroine never gets raped. 

I think the Arianne / Darkstar thing was the author's response to the female fans who romantize bad boys. 

He seems nice, but we've never met him. The Tyrells really wanted it really badly, and I dont trust them. 

Unfortunately Sansa gets attracted to a lot of the bad boys: Waymar, Joffrey, Loras, The Hound...

[Lord Varys]

14 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I think Rodrik made a general call for assistance, but why he wasn’t more suspicious of the finely armored figure leading the Bolton men, I do not know.

Well, he had no reason to believe it was Ramsay since he had reason to believe Ramsay he was dead. He was directly involved in that. And any person in charge of the Dreadfort would have access to that armor.

 

[BlackLightning]

On 3/12/2021 at 3:35 PM, Angel Eyes said:

I think Rodrik made a general call for assistance, but why he wasn’t more suspicious of the finely armored figure leading the Bolton men, I do not know.

 

I don't know if there was anything he could've done at that point.

And I imagine Rodrick would've been singularly focused on retaking Winterfell and ensuring the safety of the Stark boys.