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Benioff and Weiss didn't necessarily make problems, they just made things worse


Angel Eyes
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52 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I don't really think Arya was whitewashed, particularly in Season 7; she wanted to take Sansa's face on a whim and was a massive hypocrite regarding Seasons 1 and 2 (read: the Tywin and Arya scenes).

Whitewashed to the extent viewers were meant to ra ra as she slaughtered people.

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10 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Regarding Peter Dinklage, it's certainly possible that the show's Tyrion is what they think he should be, as playing the book's version is well within Dinklage's wheelhouse given some of his roles.

Dinklage was definitely one of the best actors on the show. It's a shame the writers never gave him the type of material he could have shone with. Actors almost always say that they feel more challenged and satisfied by playing meaner/more villainous roles, and I don't think this would have been an exception. I think he could have portrayed Dance Tyrion very well if given a chance. A shame that D&D decided to write a completely different character also coincidentally named Tyrion Lannister instead.

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22 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I don't really think Arya was whitewashed, particularly in Season 7; she wanted to take Sansa's face on a whim and was a massive hypocrite regarding Seasons 1 and 2 (read: the Tywin and Arya scenes).

She was whitewashed because no one called or viewed her behavior inappropriate or abnormal.

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9 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I mean, as much as some people don't like to hear this... in the end a large amount of the blame falls on Martin for selling an incomplete product.

I fail to see how that explains or justifies any of the atrocious writing present in the show. Even when D&D were drawing directly from the books, they still managed to bastardise plenty of characters and scenes. Frankly, they were never good writers, and almost every time they veered away from the source material, this became blatantly clear. And it was D&D's decision to rush through the Feast and Dance material, because their attention spans were too short and they didn't understand those books. Martin said that they could easily get three seasons out of those books, and he was right. Doing so would have set up the HBO series for a somewhat more logical and consistent final act, but D&D's decision to cut out 90% of the material from Feast and Dance meant that they were intentionally sabotaging their own story by refusing to acknowledge that those books were relevant for the big picture. The sheer amount of characters and storylines they omitted is staggering, and it meant they had to perform ridiculous leaps of logic to get things back on track. Actually good writers would have stayed mostly faithful to the source material until they ran out of it, and then used their brains and done some careful thinking about how to get from that point to the ending, which Martin had told them in general terms. And Martin was always available to give them advice on what to do and what to avoid, but guess what? They straight-up ignored a lot of what Martin said, even when he insisted that some things were too important to cut out.

So.... you can't simultaneously blame Martin for not finishing the series, but also give D&D a pass when they intentionally didn't follow the source material they were given, and also ignored his advice. They arrogantly thought they were superior writers, and they were wrong. That's about it.

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10 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

I fail to see how that explains or justifies any of the atrocious writing present in the show. Even when D&D were drawing directly from the books, they still managed to bastardise plenty of characters and scenes. Frankly, they were never good writers, and almost every time they veered away from the source material, this became blatantly clear. And it was D&D's decision to rush through the Feast and Dance material, because their attention spans were too short and they didn't understand those books. Martin said that they could easily get three seasons out of those books, and he was right. Doing so would have set up the HBO series for a somewhat more logical and consistent final act, but D&D's decision to cut out 90% of the material from Feast and Dance meant that they were intentionally sabotaging their own story by refusing to acknowledge that those books were relevant for the big picture. The sheer amount of characters and storylines they omitted is staggering, and it meant they had to perform ridiculous leaps of logic to get things back on track. Actually good writers would have stayed mostly faithful to the source material until they ran out of it, and then used their brains and done some careful thinking about how to get from that point to the ending, which Martin had told them in general terms. And Martin was always available to give them advice on what to do and what to avoid, but guess what? They straight-up ignored a lot of what Martin said, even when he insisted that some things were too important to cut out.

So.... you can't simultaneously blame Martin for not finishing the series, but also give D&D a pass when they intentionally didn't follow the source material they were given, and also ignored his advice. They arrogantly thought they were superior writers, and they were wrong. That's about it.

Quote me where i gave them a pass. I suspect if you searched my post history you'd find me ripping into them plenty. On the same coin you can't criticize D&D while giving Martin a pass. 

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17 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

On the same coin you can't criticize D&D while giving Martin a pass. 

Sure I can. I can criticise them for different things. I criticise Martin for being an extremely slow writer, being easily distracrted and seemingly having given up on finishing Winds, and I criticise D&D for being terrible writers with not much respect for the source material. These things are not mutually exclusive. The lame excuse of "Well D&D didn't have the finished series to adapt from" doesn't work in justifying their bad writing, because, as I said, even when they did have plenty of source material to draw from, they still screwed it up and wrote garbage. I've yet to see a counter-argument to this.

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1 hour ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Sure I can. I can criticise them for different things. I criticise Martin for being an extremely slow writer, being easily distracrted and seemingly having given up on finishing Winds, and I criticise D&D for being terrible writers with not much respect for the source material. These things are not mutually exclusive. The lame excuse of "Well D&D didn't have the finished series to adapt from" doesn't work in justifying their bad writing, because, as I said, even when they did have plenty of source material to draw from, they still screwed it up and wrote garbage. I've yet to see a counter-argument to this.

I'm not trying to counter it. All I'm saying it part of the blame -does- fall on Martin for hand picking them to adapt it and selling them an incomplete product. You definitely can find a decrease in quality about the time they ran out of material to work with. But in the end they were also the ones who claimed they could make it work, so they deserve all the criticism they've gotten for what they produced. I think Martin deserves some of it as well for his role in it is all.

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23 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I mean, as much as some people don't like to hear this... in the end a large amount of the blame falls on Martin for selling an incomplete product.

Not that DnD bothered much with adaptating too much from AFFC and ADWD. Surely, it was a problem, but George helped them, and they even wrote an ending based on all that, and when it god leaked, created that mess we call S8 now. Also, it's not like they didn't want to leave the project behind for years by then. 

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To the author of the thread: I think you should skip the Winds of Winter (if it ever emerges from GRRM mind). There might be more blood, more cynicism, some more gross, 18+ descriptions of people private parts. Bad people are gonna succeed, before failing miserably - you won't handle it, so don't do it to yourself. 

Extreme violence was invented by GRRM btw - Hitler, Stalin, Ted Bundy, Jack the Ripper, Fritzl (Craster wannabe), racism, tortures, wars, it never happend. 

 

wow.

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