UK politics - Dry Your Eyes Mate, ...

[Lykos]

... there's plenty more - uh oh.

Okay that analogy doesn't work as well as it used to, but the point is, that there are many more chances to be missed.

So please continue.

[Spockydog]

Regarding honours, Lewis Hamilton got a knighthood despite choosing to live as a tax evader exile for the past thirteen years. According to the Guardian, there was some reluctance to reward him due to this, but Boros Johnson intervened, because ... of course he fucking did.

[Werthead]

42 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Regarding honours, Lewis Hamilton got a knighthood despite choosing to live as a tax evader exile for the past thirteen years. According to the Guardian, there was some reluctance to reward him due to this, but Boros Johnson intervened, because ... of course he fucking did.

This gets thrown around a lot, despite the fact that Lewis Hamilton is one of the UK's top payers of income tax, and in a single year pays considerably more than you, I and every other British person on this board has or ever will, combined.

F1 drivers are in a weird position because their earnings come from multiple tax jurisdictions every single year - 17 this year, 23 next year - and they get taxed in different ways on that. If they remain in a "normal" country they can end up paying tax twice depending on the situation (I have done remote work in the United States whilst residing in the UK or the Republic of Ireland and been double-taxed on it and had to file small mountain of paperwork to straighten it out, and that's on amounts that are negligible in comparison). The reason they are advised to move to a tax haven like Monaco is that it is easier to work out the correct tax they pay in each specific country when you're not being taxed from your place of lodging. In Hamilton's case he only races in the UK once per year (at Silverstone) and then gets additional earnings based on certain times spent working at the Mercedes UK HQ, so he gets taxed in the UK on income related to those duties. However, he doesn't pay British tax on earnings made in the United States or in Bahrain or China.

It's also worth noting that some on Daimler's board have been lukewarm about Mercedes' continued involvement in Formula One, even given their success, and it's likely they would have pulled out some years ago if they hadn't won double championships for seven years straight, which is on Hamilton, and that's kept well over a thousand permanent, full-time jobs in the UK as well.

[Spockydog]

32 minutes ago, Werthead said:

This gets thrown around a lot, despite the fact that Lewis Hamilton is one of the UK's top payers of income tax, and in a single year pays considerably more than you, I and every other British person on this board has or ever will, combined.

F1 drivers are in a weird position because their earnings come from multiple tax jurisdictions every single year - 17 this year, 23 next year - and they get taxed in different ways on that. If they remain in a "normal" country they can end up paying tax twice depending on the situation (I have done remote work in the United States whilst residing in the UK or the Republic of Ireland and been double-taxed on it and had to file small mountain of paperwork to straighten it out, and that's on amounts that are negligible in comparison). The reason they are advised to move to a tax haven like Monaco is that it is easier to work out the correct tax they pay in each specific country when you're not being taxed from your place of lodging. In Hamilton's case he only races in the UK once per year (at Silverstone) and then gets additional earnings based on certain times spent working at the Mercedes UK HQ, so he gets taxed in the UK on income related to those duties. However, he doesn't pay British tax on earnings made in the United States or in Bahrain or China.

It's also worth noting that some on Daimler's board have been lukewarm about Mercedes' continued involvement in Formula One, even given their success, and it's likely they would have pulled out some years ago if they hadn't won double championships for seven years straight, which is on Hamilton, and that's kept well over a thousand permanent, full-time jobs in the UK as well.

Hooray! He pays UK tax on a small fraction of his earnings. What a patriot!

And he never gets involved in any kind of sleazy tax avoidance manoeuvres, for instance by setting up a fraudulent leasing service to rent his own private jet to himself. Oh yeah, what a guy! We plebs should be grateful for the drippings from his arse.

[Werthead]

2 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Hooray! He pays UK tax on a small fraction of his earnings. What a patriot!

And he never gets involved in any kind of sleazy tax avoidance manoeuvres, for instance by setting up a fraudulent leasing service to rent his own £135m private jet to himself. Oh yeah, what a guy! We plebs should be grateful for the drippings from his arse.

No, he pays UK tax on the earnings he makes in the UK. He pays tax in other jurisdictions on his earnings in those jurisdictions.

The jet thing was total bullshit, though, and he knows that (one of the reasons he got rid of it).

[Spockydog]

39 minutes ago, Werthead said:

The jet thing was total bullshit, though, and he knows that (one of the reasons he got rid of it).

He got rid of it because he got rumbled.

And I guess as he was proven to be evading tax in his home country, I imagine there's no way he'll try to evade tax in the other countries he works in. Oh, no.

 

 

[ljkeane]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

This gets thrown around a lot, despite the fact that Lewis Hamilton is one of the UK's top payers of income tax, and in a single year pays considerably more than you, I and every other British person on this board has or ever will, combined.

F1 drivers are in a weird position because their earnings come from multiple tax jurisdictions every single year - 17 this year, 23 next year - and they get taxed in different ways on that. If they remain in a "normal" country they can end up paying tax twice depending on the situation (I have done remote work in the United States whilst residing in the UK or the Republic of Ireland and been double-taxed on it and had to file small mountain of paperwork to straighten it out, and that's on amounts that are negligible in comparison). The reason they are advised to move to a tax haven like Monaco is that it is easier to work out the correct tax they pay in each specific country when you're not being taxed from your place of lodging.

There's an argument to be made that as arguably the most successful black British sportsperson ever Hamilton's significance to the community outweighs any issues around his tax avoidance but, come on, he lives in notorious tax haven Monaco to save on paperwork? Yeah, right.

[Werthead]

50 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

He got rid of it because he got rumbled.

And I guess as he was proven to be avoiding tax in his home country, I imagine there's no way he'll try to evade tax in the other countries he works in. Oh, no.

You seem to have some personal anger issues towards this highly successful sportsman who has paid millions in UK tax (no matter the ill-informed screeches that he hasn't paid any, which is a flat-out lie), donated tens of millions of pounds to charity and campaigned positively on social justice issues for a decade and a half. It makes it difficult to have any kind of discussion when you respond to facts with some kind of reheated Daily Mail-flavoured nonsensical diatribe. Frankly, I thought better of you.

I do enjoy the British tendency to bitch incessantly about not being successful at anything and then find excuses to criticise people who are successful. So we had the fourth-best (and, for very fleeting occasions when the other three were injured or off-form, the best) tennis player in the world and he got shat on and criticised for being Scottish. We had the best golfer in the world and he got shat on for being from Northern Ireland. And we have the best racing driver of all time, who's actually from England itself, from a relatively poor family, who achieved success without wealthy backers or sponsorship, and he gets shat on for what comes down to a tabloid meme.

Quote

There's an argument to be made that as arguably the most successful black British sportsperson ever Hamilton's significance to the community outweighs any issues around his tax avoidance but, come on, he lives in notorious tax haven Monaco to save on paperwork? Yeah, right.

Oh, of course it's partially to avoid some of the local taxes and payments that he would in the UK (although those are generally negligible when compared to his ~£40 million a year contract, let alone brand endorsements). But since he doesn't earn 100% (or even 30%) of his income in the UK, then it wouldn't make much sense to pay 100% of his tax in the UK either.

I actually got his argument from an elderly aunt when I was living and working in the RoI and she wanted to know why I wasn't paying tax in the UK, and she couldn't fathom the idea that there was no reason for me to do so and I was paying my taxes to the Irish government instead.

If you're not living in Britain and you're not earning most of your money in Britain, why should you pay all your taxes in Britain?

[Spockydog]

8 minutes ago, Werthead said:

You seem to have some personal anger issues towards this highly successful sportsman who has paid millions in UK tax (no matter the ill-informed screeches that he hasn't paid any, which is a flat-out lie), donated tens of millions of pounds to charity and campaigned positively on social justice issues for a decade and a half. It makes it difficult to have any kind of discussion when you respond to facts with some kind of reheated Daily Mail-flavoured nonsensical diatribe. Frankly, I thought better of you.

Not sure I like what you're insinuating here.

I'll admit, I think the bloke is a bit of a bellend, and I've never been a fan of F1, so I guess that makes me less willing to overlook stuff like his blatant tax evasion and general bellendness.

[ljkeane]

9 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Oh, of course it's partially to avoid some of the local taxes and payments that he would in the UK (although those are generally negligible when compared to his ~£40 million a year contract, let alone brand endorsements). But since he doesn't earn 100% (or even 30%) of his income in the UK, then it wouldn't make much sense to pay 100% of his tax in the UK either.

Firstly, stop with the whole 'he's paid more in tax than anyone here' thing. That's because he earns shitloads of money and should pay lots of tax. That's the same disingenuous bollocks people spout when arguing for flat taxes.

Secondly, no, I wouldn't have any problem with him residing abroad and paying the bulk of his taxes there. That's fine. What I do think isn't particularly edifying is him choosing to live in a tax haven (amongst other things apparently) to avoid paying as much tax as he can.

Having said that, whatever, I'm sure there are loads of people who've been awarded various honours who've engaged in various methods of avoiding tax. Hamilton in particular doesn't really bother me any more than any of the others.

 

[Werthead]

7 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Not sure I like what you're insinuating here.

I'll admit, I think the bloke is a bit of a bellend, and I've never been a fan of F1, so I guess that makes me less willing to overlook stuff like his blatant tax evasion and general bellendness.

I'm not insinuating racism if that's what you think, and I think I made that clear. You are, however, repeatedly ignoring the fact that he does pay his taxes in the UK for the money he makes in the UK and you keep repeating the tabloid meme that he doesn't pay any taxes in the UK at all. I'm just bemused as to why.

If you don't care about F1, fair enough, but it's hard to ignore his massive charity contributions and his campaigning for racial equality in sport (and in general) and using his profile from something a lot of people don't give shit about to talk positively about other issues. That's why he's been and is being honoured in addition to his huge sporting success.

2 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

Firstly, stop with the whole 'he's paid more in tax than anyone here' thing. That's because he earns shitloads of money and should pay lots of tax. That's the same disingenuous bollocks people spout when arguing for flat taxes.

If people insist on erecting ivory towers for them to yell at others from a superior moral position, when in fact they are talking absolute bollocks from a position of ignorance, they should perhaps not be surprised when someone comes along and knocks the tower over.

[ljkeane]

1 minute ago, Werthead said:

If people insist on erecting ivory towers for them to yell at others from a superior moral position, when in fact they are talking absolute bollocks from a position of ignorance, they should perhaps not be surprised when someone comes along and knocks the tower over.

So when are you going to start knocking said ivory tower over then? Because so far all I'm seeing some rather breathless insistence that he does pay some tax in the UK. Well of course he does. So what?

The objection to Hamilton is that he engages in tax avoidance. He pretty unequivocally does. That doesn't mean he doesn't pay any tax.

[Spockydog]

16 minutes ago, Werthead said:

I'm not insinuating racism if that's what you think, and I think I made that clear. You are, however, repeatedly ignoring the fact that he does pay his taxes in the UK for the money he makes in the UK and you keep repeating the tabloid meme that he doesn't pay any taxes in the UK at all. I'm just bemused as to why.

Please quote my posts where where I said he doesn't pay any UK tax at all. Oh, that's right, I never fucking said that.

And no, you didn't make it clear you were not insinuating racism. When you invoke the Daily Mail with those type of snide comments, to me, that is exactly what you are insinuating. And to me, that is deeply fucking offensive.

And look, you keep saying he does pay all his due taxes in the UK. According to whom? You? Him? His accountant?

You seem content to ignore the example of his private jet tax scam, whereas most reasonable people might think if he's got rumbled for that, what else is he up to?

Also, I come from a working class background and grew up on a shitty council estate. Now, good things are happening for me, and there's a very good chance I'm going to be filthy fucking rich. If that happens, I promise you now, I will not be sitting down with a bunch of suits from Ernst & Young working out how I can pay as little tax as possible.

Also, fuck anyone who doesn't pay what they owe in tax then seek to offset that against charitable work, a la Bezos.

 

[Werthead]

29 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Please quote my posts where where I said he doesn't pay any UK tax at all. Oh, that's right, I never fucking said that.

That was the outright implication of:

Quote

Regarding honours, Lewis Hamilton got a knighthood despite choosing to live as a tax evader exile for the past thirteen years.

Quote

And no, you didn't make it clear you were not insinuating racism. When you invoke the Daily Mail with those type of snide comments, to me, that is exactly what you are insinuating. And to me, that is deeply fucking offensive.

I made it clear that the "tabloid meme" was a reference to him being a tax avoider. There isn't even a tabloid meme about him being black (even the Mail has been relatively careful in avoiding giving that impression).

 

Quote

And look, you keep saying he does pay all his due taxes in the UK. According to whom? You? Him? His accountant?

Him, his accountant and several motorsport commentators, who have all pointed out the payment and tax structure for any sport where you earn most of your money travelling from one tax jurisdiction to another is much more complex than these simplistic "Well, he's just a tax avoider then," statements.

Quote

You seem content to ignore the example of his private jet tax scam, whereas most reasonable people might think if he's got rumbled for that, what else is he up to?

I think we mentioned the private jet scheme and the fact that he got rid of it (two years later) having been rumbled for it. He says he did it to improve his carbon footprint, but it's certainly convenient that it removed a key source of criticism against him (both for the tax issue and the fact that him having a private jet was used as a criticism in itself).

Quote

Also, I come from a working class background and grew up on a shitty council estate. Now, good things are happening for me, and there's a very good chance I'm going to be filthy fucking rich. If that happens, I promise you now, I will not be sitting down with a bunch of suits from Ernst & Young working out how I can pay as little tax as possible.

Certainly, and that is highly laudable. I came into a large sum of money some years ago and paid all relevant dues on it. However, those are both occasions of things (I assume) taking place 100% within the single tax jurisdiction of the UK, so the question doesn't really arise. When I do earn money in other countries, I'm certainly making sure I'm not getting stung for it twice.

Quote

Also, fuck anyone who doesn't pay what they owe in tax then seek to offset that against charitable work, a la Bezos.

The implication that his charitable work with children, getting deprived people into sport and with the BLM movement is being done to offset tax is quite cynical.

You also keep saying he "doesn't pay what he owes in tax" without anything to actually back it up. What taxes, specifically, is he avoiding paying? British council tax when he doesn't live in Britain? Actually, that's probably not even true either, as he bought both his parents and his disabled brother houses in the UK and I'm pretty sure he's picking up the bills on them, certainly for his brother.

[Spockydog]

Okay, Lewis Hamilton is the paragon of civic responsibility. Whatever you say. 

And we will ignore the private jet scam, because past behaviour should never be used when determining what someone might be up to today. 

Righto mate. 

[Heartofice]

Ok well as long as we are all ok with millionaires going to live in tax havens to avoid tax. Just note that down. 

[Spockydog]

2 hours ago, Werthead said:

 

 

[Derfel Cadarn]

Bojo’s dad has applied for French citizenship. Seriously, you cant make this shit up.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55499773

[Spockydog]

2 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Bojo’s dad has applied for French citizenship. Seriously, you cant make this shit up.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55499773

In terms of what came out of his bollocks, he's got an awful lot to answer for. But he did campaign for Remain during the referendum, so on this particular issue, I think he gets a pass.

 

[Fragile Bird]

2 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Bojo’s dad has applied for French citizenship. Seriously, you cant make this shit up.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55499773

Omg, the resemblance is...appalling!