The Ryswell Game

[The Young Maester]

Roose seems to somewhat trust lady dustin and her ryswell kin. However I find that very strange, mainly because of Ramsey. I have always said that Ramsey is Roose's greatest weakness. Having Ramsey as heir is a very bad idea, simply imagine what he would do once he is warden of the north and his father is dead. Look at the amount of damage he done when he was given power as castellan of the dreadfort. Now imagine what he would do as Warden of the North, the motto "A peaceful land. A Quiet People" dont seem to suit him very much.

And you have the obvious dislike between lady dustin and ramsey. She didnt allow him and his bastard boys anywhere near barrowton. And this is how Ramsey responds

Ramsay's face darkened. "If I cut off her teats and feed them to my girls, will she abide me then? Will she abide me if I strip off her skin to make myself a pair of boots?"

Very much doubt Ramsey will forget that, and barbery definitely knows that Ramsey holds no love for her after she barred her gates from him.

My only guess is that once fArya births a son from Ramsey, Lord Ryswell expects a granddaughter of his to marry the son of fArya. Lord Ryswell has 3 sons, and it is very likely one of them has a daughter of age.

My guess is that once the dust has settled and the north has been pacified, Ryswells expect the babe of fArya to be Roose's heir, not Ramsey. Roose preaches about how child lords are the bane of a house, and for the position he is in atm he certainly is right. But if I was him id rather have a child lord with ryswells as regents than my mad son Ramsey whom is likely to burn barrowton first chance he gets.

People predict that lady dustin and her kin will turncloak because of the dislike they hold to Ramsey, but whats the point of jumping ship to stannis whom is less likely to reward them with anything but more war. With Roose they will hold a great bargain as being his only true supporter in the north (freys dont count since theyll be gone once things have settled). Not to forget most of the northern houses wish to bade on bolton blood as things stand, and it will likely carry on like that for decades. So keeping Ryswells happy is Roose's only bet at actually holding onto his tenuous power.

[Nathan Stark]

I think it is simpler than all of that. Roose and the Ryswells expect that Ramsay will not last very much longer. In fact, I fully expect Roose to try getting rid of his inconveniant bastard somehow: pitting him against King Stannis perhaps? Roose has his Frey bride and a means to make more little Boltons who he has more control over. They are threatened as long as Ramsay lives. Which means Roose must get rid of his bastard somehow. The Ryswells must be aware of this too.

[Curled Finger]

Yah @Nathan Stark, that feels closer than succession consideration.   Not that Roose isn't thinking about alliances.  He needs strong alliances in the North.   A reverse Rickard situation of sorts.  And the small matter of the Boltons and Ryswells having already had marital and blood bonds through Bethany and Domeric.  I think Lady D is wicked ticked off.  I wouldn't be at all surprised to see her make an attempt at taking Ramsay out.  She's fierce enough to try.   It sure does seem as though Roose is more fond of Barbery than she is of him.  

I'm not convinced that Roose would actually get rid of Ramsay.  He tends to wave off Ramsay's atrocities as bastards will be bastards.  A stern talking to is all Ramsay gets.  This stinks of a sort of protection to me.  

So Roose has already been connected by marriage to the Ryswells and by extension, the Dustins.  The connections are both dead.  Other than the fact that both are fairly well to do houses, what good is Barbery Dustin, really?  I still don't see where feeding Ned's bones to her dogs does anything for this burning revenge she wants.   There is more here, but I can't fit her in any neat little box.  

[Loose Bolt]

We do not know who is heir of house Dustin. So I assume that main motivation of Ryswells of supporting Roose is that they would want to have their own candidate as next lord of Barrowtown. So as long as he has nominal support of Iron Throne they would stay loyal to Roose. 

[The Sleeper]

Yes, it is out of character for Roose to just let Ramsay have his way. He is however aware that Theon has been thoroughly broken by him and cannot help himself when asked to repeat to Ramsay anything has heard.

It is not at all unlikely that Roose has let his allies know that Ramsay is to quitely have an "accident" after he impregnates fArya.

It is also likely that has sweetened the pot for them for their support, though I would not care to speculate about the specifics.

[The Young Maester]

11 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

We do not know who is heir of house Dustin. So I assume that main motivation of Ryswells of supporting Roose is that they would want to have their own candidate as next lord of Barrowtown. So as long as he has nominal support of Iron Throne they would stay loyal to Roose. 

Certainly possible that lord ryswell wants barrowton to stay in ryswell hands. Maybe pass it to one of his sons or grandsons when lady Dustin dies.

It is very likely that there still are dustins out there. And if any Dustin of relation to the previous lord is passed over, I doubt the bannermen of barrowton would be very happy of that.

However a simple word from the warden of the north will probably shut them up for a while.

[Canon Claude]

6 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Certainly possible that lord ryswell wants barrowton to stay in ryswell hands. Maybe pass it to one of his sons or grandsons when lady Dustin dies.

It is very likely that there still are dustins out there. And if any Dustin of relation to the previous lord is passed over, I doubt the bannermen of barrowton would be very happy of that.

However a simple word from the warden of the north will probably shut them up for a while.

The Dustin situation makes no goddamn sense to me. As soon as Lady Hornwood became a widow, it caused a huge debate over who would marry her or become her heir, especially because she wasn’t a Hornwood by birth. How come Barbrey was allowed to be the Lady of Barrowton for fifteen years without having to remarry? Not saying I want to force a husband on widows, I just don’t get the inconsistency for story purposes.

[The Young Maester]

5 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

The Dustin situation makes no goddamn sense to me. As soon as Lady Hornwood became a widow, it caused a huge debate over who would marry her or become her heir, especially because she wasn’t a Hornwood by birth. How come Barbrey was allowed to be the Lady of Barrowton for fifteen years without having to remarry? Not saying I want to force a husband on widows, I just don’t get the inconsistency for story purposes.

To me it seems that lady Dustin was a last minute character. Mayhaps grrm thought that having all bannermen of the north be half in love with Ned wouldnt be realistic at all, so he introduced the widow of barrowton. It fits the narrative nicely since in agot we get info of lord Dustin dying at the tower of joy. But we hear nothing of his widow in charge of barrowton.

I bet George has been asked questions about lady dustins legitimacy to barrowton. So he will probably bring more answers to that in winds. Maybe he might say she has Dustin blood or that Ned decreed she be the lady, or that she had an agreement with the would be heir of barrowton.

[The Sleeper]

9 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

The Dustin situation makes no goddamn sense to me. As soon as Lady Hornwood became a widow, it caused a huge debate over who would marry her or become her heir, especially because she wasn’t a Hornwood by birth. How come Barbrey was allowed to be the Lady of Barrowton for fifteen years without having to remarry? Not saying I want to force a husband on widows, I just don’t get the inconsistency for story purposes.

Ned feeling guilty? 

[Daena the Defiant]

51 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

The Dustin situation makes no goddamn sense to me. As soon as Lady Hornwood became a widow, it caused a huge debate over who would marry her or become her heir, especially because she wasn’t a Hornwood by birth. How come Barbrey was allowed to be the Lady of Barrowton for fifteen years without having to remarry? Not saying I want to force a husband on widows, I just don’t get the inconsistency for story purposes.

If you do enough hand waving, it's .... probably explained that Lady Barbrey has been in power before the Wot5K, and there is an heir out there somewhere but since Lady Barbrey was successfully governing the lands, it wasn't tremendously urgent, whereas Lady Donella was newly thrust into authority in the middle of a war and the whole thing was just too unstable to leave her "un-secured." But yes, it is an inconsistency. 

[The Young Maester]

2 hours ago, Daena the Defiant said:

If you do enough hand waving, it's .... probably explained that Lady Barbrey has been in power before the Wot5K, and there is an heir out there somewhere but since Lady Barbrey was successfully governing the lands, it wasn't tremendously urgent, whereas Lady Donella was newly thrust into authority in the middle of a war and the whole thing was just too unstable to leave her "un-secured." But yes, it is an inconsistency. 

During Robert’s rebellion barbrey suggested to her husband that he sent his uncles and cousins. My guess is that those uncles and cousins are dead by now, and they only sired daughters which is why barbrey is probably still in power.

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

5 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

The Dustin situation makes no goddamn sense to me. As soon as Lady Hornwood became a widow, it caused a huge debate over who would marry her or become her heir, especially because she wasn’t a Hornwood by birth. How come Barbrey was allowed to be the Lady of Barrowton for fifteen years without having to remarry? Not saying I want to force a husband on widows, I just don’t get the inconsistency for story purposes.

I always thought Neds reaction to Jory’s death overly emotional. Their is that Roose Ryswell who appears out of nowhere.

[Rondo]

Barbrey dislikes Ramsay but she feels even more strongly against the Starks.  The Starks have treated her family callously.  She has a game plan.  Who wants Ramsay to be her lord paramount.  I am sure she will be accepting if Walda and Roose were to have a son.  This new development is a ray of hope in her eyes.  

[Mad King Bolton]

Roose is a poor man's Tywin Lannister.  Ramsay is to Roose as Gregor was too Tywin, except family.  So, Roose uses Ramsay in such a way as to loose him on his enemies and keeps the carrot of being his heir and having legitimacy eventually waving in front of him.  Ramsay won't settle for the carrot forever though and I think both he and Roose are playing a bit of a Sith rule of 2 game going.  If the opportunity for Ramsay to supplant Roose comes up, he'll take it so Roose has to constantly stay ahead of him and make sure Ramsay is occupied with worthy tasks and all the while if Ramsay should fall, Roose can work on another heir (thanks Fat Walda) and as Ramsay succeeds, Roose grows in power. For Ramsay, he eliminates any competition that Roose can make to keep himself relevant, and keep learning and growing his own power and reputation until he can supplant Roose in one way or another.  I'm pretty sure we all know how this will play out eventually...but how and when is definitely fun.

[Curled Finger]

13 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Yes, it is out of character for Roose to just let Ramsay have his way. He is however aware that Theon has been thoroughly broken by him and cannot help himself when asked to repeat to Ramsay anything has heard.

It is not at all unlikely that Roose has let his allies know that Ramsay is to quitely have an "accident" after he impregnates fArya.

It's been a long time since I read someone I thought "got" at least the way I do, Roose Bolton.   I think he's creepy as all Hell.   Ramsay is shockingly brutal and we spend a lot of time with him.   And we do see Ramsay through his victim's vantage.  We see Roose through our little hellcat Arya as his own sort of prisoner so we have her impressions, hatred, a sort of respect--not torture.  Arya didn't tell us how Roose flayed her skin and made her sleep with the dogs.  She told us she understood who this man was and respected her danger.   Perhaps we would feel even differently had we seen either Bolton from different perspectives.  I think the POVs they got very close to were perfect portrayals of how the reader was intended to interpret Ramsay and Roose.  

You're right, Roose is smart enough to pull such a betrayal and in exactly the way you surmise.  I need to read this because Roose Bolton's depths are so utterly ghastly.  Ramsay sucks, but Roose is scary.

[The Young Maester]

15 hours ago, Rondo said:

Barbrey dislikes Ramsay but she feels even more strongly against the Starks.  The Starks have treated her family callously. 

Which stark are you referring to? Callously? that is a very strong word. All Ned did was not bring her husbands bones, and she bitches about it decades later. 

She suspects Ramsey of murdering her favourite nephew. Ramsey raped and starved lady Hornwood. I very much doubt she likes him more than Ned or his brood. She even had the gall to bare her gates from the warden of the north’s son and heir.

[The Young Maester]

15 hours ago, Mad King Bolton said:

Roose is a poor man's Tywin Lannister.  Ramsay is to Roose as Gregor was too Tywin, except family.  So, Roose uses Ramsay in such a way as to loose him on his enemies and keeps the carrot of being his heir and having legitimacy eventually waving in front of him.  Ramsay won't settle for the carrot forever though and I think both he and Roose are playing a bit of a Sith rule of 2 game going.  If the opportunity for Ramsay to supplant Roose comes up, he'll take it so Roose has to constantly stay ahead of him and make sure Ramsay is occupied with worthy tasks and all the while if Ramsay should fall, Roose can work on another heir (thanks Fat Walda) and as Ramsay succeeds, Roose grows in power. For Ramsay, he eliminates any competition that Roose can make to keep himself relevant, and keep learning and growing his own power and reputation until he can supplant Roose in one way or another.  I'm pretty sure we all know how this will play out eventually...but how and when is definitely fun.

It seems that fat walda is pregnant as well. And because she is so fat it is easily concealed. Ramsey hears of it and shit will kick the fan. 

[Daena the Defiant]

22 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

During Robert’s rebellion barbrey suggested to her husband that he sent his uncles and cousins. My guess is that those uncles and cousins are dead by now, and they only sired daughters which is why barbrey is probably still in power.

That would make sense, although under the vague system, one of those daughters would be named as the correct heiress. One would think that those daughters would be openly bitching about the Dowager Lady refusing to give up power - unless they are all minors.  Once the putative heiress marries, then I'd expect .... the new Lady Dustin and her Lord Protector husband would give Babs the ole heave ho.  

[Nathan Stark]

3 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

Which stark are you referring to? Callously? that is a very strong word. All Ned did was not bring her husbands bones, and she bitches about it decades later. 

She suspects Ramsey of murdering her favourite nephew. Ramsey raped and starved lady Hornwood. I very much doubt she likes him more than Ned or his brood. She even had the gall to bare her gates from the warden of the north’s son and heir.

There may be some North-specific thing about laying bones to rest that Ned, for whatever reason, did not honor. That's what I figure at least. Given the history of wights and the Others, laying bodies to rest properly may have special signifigance in the North, even if they have forgotton why. The Starks are pretty insistant about burying their dead rulers in the crypts. We don't hear what burial practices other houses may have, but it's possible the Dustins might be slightly annoyed with Ned about not honoring one of their own burial customs.

[The Sleeper]

4 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

There may be some North-specific thing about laying bones to rest that Ned, for whatever reason, did not honor. That's what I figure at least. Given the history of wights and the Others, laying bodies to rest properly may have special signifigance in the North, even if they have forgotton why. The Starks are pretty insistant about burying their dead rulers in the crypts. We don't hear what burial practices other houses may have, but it's possible the Dustins might be slightly annoyed with Ned about not honoring one of their own burial customs.

In Bran's chapter it becomes apparent the the weirwood rove grows on what is practically a graveyard and the roots of the trees are entwined with the bones of the dead. Th trees absorb the dead and preserve their memories. That is where that tradition comes from. Dead not buried beneath the family tree are lost for eternity.