How will Jon and Dany change going into TWOW?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

So as I outlined previously, Jon's and Dany's arks in ADWD mirrors each other quite a lot, ending in roughly the same situation. Both are screwed badly, with Jon currently being a permanent visitor inside Ghost while Dany is all alone in the Dothraki sea allowing GRRM the opportunity to make poop jokes. Both however also have a strong core of supporters that will probably somewhat make things right before they return, with Barristan and the Shavepate in Meereen and Tormund, Val, the wildlings, the queen's men and whatever Jon loyalists still remain on the Wall.

Now the question is how will the two change when coming back, as both will deffo go through change, Jon from his stint in Ghost, and Dany from her stint in the Dothraki sea. So how will it change them??

[$erPounce]

I will do an analysis of both characters, to make clear how they evolve in the course of the books and what will follow.

Let's start with Daenerys, who started out as a subordinate to a superior (Viserys). She has no interest in governing, rather in leading a "normal" life (see memories House with the Red Door, his desires to plant trees and become a sailor). After Viserys death she feels more or less forced to continue the Targaryen lineage. So she can forget about a carefree life.

With the dragons (and exposure to moral injustice) she thinks she has the power to create a carefree (utopian) world by punishing "evil". After Daenerys' way of acting in Astapor and Yunkai, she sees that she has only created chaos and suffering (see Cleos The Butcher King). The situation with Hazzea is the direct cause for the imprisonment of the dragons. She changes her approach to reach her naive ideal.

In Meereen she tries to create her ideal society in a non-violent way, by marrying Hizdahr zo Loraq. She has the peace, although it is not comparable to Daenerys' dream vision - because of the many compromises. However, she finds it very difficult to make concessions that take into account the current functioning of society (which she finds very unjust, but for those who live in it is "normal" and "comfortable").

When she ran away from Meereen on her dragon, it meant that she is simply tired of conforming to a society in which she is ruling. The compromises led to the fact that she did not make the paradise she longed for. She now has a steel will to reach her final goal and every concession to an opposing party she considers a defeat. She no longer intends to bow. She no longer wants to wear the "rabbit ears" to be "queen of rabbits".

She hates governing, she simply feels obliged to continue the Targaryen name. If she could choose for herself what she would do with her life (if she could), I am completely convinced that she would have completely withdrawn from the political aspect of society. She simply could not. With the dragons she believes she has the power to create a carefree society, but she cannot prevent suffering - not even with a non-violent approach. She learns that she has to adapt, although she doesn't want to.

After the disappointing results of the past, I simply think that she will simply have a more violent approach again in an attempt to achieve her goal of creating a worryfree society. She will probably violently punish anyone who has participated actively or passively in what is considered unjust. After A Dance with Dragons, I no longer see a forgiving Daenerys (even if that would lead to better results) because of her prejudices. 

Note that Meereen, until her return, can more or less be called an anarchy. Barristan Selmy tries to hold the strings as a self-proclaimed "Hand of the Queen", but I have my doubts to what extent he will be recognized by the people and the outside world. Hizdahr is much more an authority figure for the local people because he shares the culture. After the disappearance of Daenerys and the imprisonment of Hizdahr, Meereen is simply very vulnerable. Even after a successful "Battle of Fire" (which will have consequences anyway), order is far from restored. In general, I don't think Daenerys intends to put much more time and energy into Meereen and leave the administration to a few confidants while focusing on Westeros.

An important cause of her coming to Westeros will anyway be Tyrion, who will quickly get a grip on her by manipulating her. After all, Tyrion is the only one in her proximity who knows about Aegon Targaryen and he will use that to his own advantage. Of course, Daenerys still has the prophecy of "the mummer's dragon" in mind, so it will trigger her.

In the end I do think that Daenerys will use more violence for, according to her, righteous reasons, but in any case she will be considered (unjustly?) monstrous by the outside world for the following reasons:

Her allies are Tyrion ( infamous as kinslayer and kingslayer, possibly her next Hand), the Greyjoys (infamous in Westeros, now active in war), Jorah (exile of crime, if he is pardoned it will also be a dent in her reputation), R'hllor followers from Volantis (considered a barbaric religion in Westeros - possibly Daenerys himself will be converted), Dothraki and Unsullied (who also don't have a very good reputation in Westeros, they are foreigners without any link to Westeros)... Barristan is in my opinion the only one in Daenerys' faction that will be welcomed with open arms in Westeros, but the question is to what extent he will still be loyal to Daenerys after she embraced her "Fire & Blood" mantra. It is still a possibility that he will defect to Aegon, who by then will probably have a much more favorable reputation (Jon Connington does have the potential to harm this).

Moreover, we must also take Dorne into account: Daenerys will be wrongfully accused for Quentyn's death. Arianne thinks she is responsible for Viserys death. Both things can be used as propaganda. So Daenerys will have to make a serious effort to win the loyalty of the Seven Kingdoms and that path can lead to the Wall and a fight against the Others.

I am convinced that Daenerys will become a tragic character. She has great ideals and a lot of potential. She thinks she will be welcomed as a savior in Westeros by destroying the Usurper's Dogs, but will unfortunately be considered a usurper herself who disrupts the short peace that Aegon VI had created. 

I will soon be doing Jon Snow.

[James West]

I will do an analysis of both characters.  Let me begin with Jon Snow. 

So we find the situation at the wall becoming more and more complex.  Complexity is not Jon Snow's area of competence.  The arrival of Stannis and the Wildlings have complicated the normally routine lives of the crows.  But opportunities also presented themselves.  The loot taken from the Wildlings were put to good use.  Stannis, on the surface, has the Wildlings subdued and appears to have bent the knee in every way.  But their rebellious ways are there, just lurking beneath the calm surface.

Jon's main issues have always been the choice between duty and love.  He already failed that test in A Game of Thrones when he attempted to leave in order to help the Starks during the War of the Five Kings.  Samwell and the other boys had more honor and brought him back.  His dedication and abilities to lead are challenged in A Dance with Dragons.  First, a former political enemy of his father questions his authority.  Jon handled this one badly. He executes the man instead of sending him to the ice cells.  Besides the injustice, this accomplished two things.  Janos had friends and supporters.  Jon alienated those men.  Secondly, nobody would dare to disagree with Jon from that point forward.  He was dangerous and unpredictable.  This might be good in a way but a commander who cannot receive advise and criticism is doomed to take a hard fall. 

Bringing the Wildings through the wall was a controversial decision.  Bowen Marsh was right to be concerned with supplies.  It was still the right thing to do.  It was the humanitarian thing to do.  Probably, I might have done the same thing in Jon's situation.  But Bowen is not completely wrong.  Food will not last long with the additional people to feed.  It is also never been proven that the wall can be breached.  Number does not matter as long as the magic barrier is holding. 

Now we get to Jon's tragic mistake.  He knows it's wrong to mess with the Boltons.  He would not allow a sworn brother of the watch to get involved with his former family's problems.  Every sworn brother of the night's watch has left all of that behind.  Their job at the wall is more important than the families they left behind.  Which is a very logical way.  The best way to protect the people is to get the job done at the wall.  Jon knows it's wrong.  It was wrong to mess with Ramsay for the sake of Arya.  Jon should have put Arya out of his mind and concentrated on doing his job at the wall.  Jon could not forget Arya and chose to get involved.  This decision caused him to spiral downwards.  He allowed Mance Rayder freedom even though the criminal deserved to be executed.  Mance is many times worse when compared to Janos.  Jon sent this man, who is a sworn brother of the night's watch, to get his sister.  Not only did this crazy move start the trouble with the Boltons, it also got the night's watch involved in violating guest rights.  Mance Rayder is a brother of the night's watch and he broke guest rights. 

The pink letter arrived and exposed Jon's secret operations.  His plans were forced out in the open.  He had to make an admission during the public meeting at the shield hall.  Jon Snow killed duty on that day.  He murdered duty for love.  The outcome will be bad for the night's watch.  Jon's story can best be described as the choice between duty and love.  Some may say Jon is a really bad guy who acted selfishly.  I don't.  I see Jon as a really tragic figure.  Jon was just not cut out for leadership and ruling.  He is a man who failed to do his job because he always put love ahead of his duties.  He started out with good intentions but his inner demons handicapped him.  Jon will be back and his attitude will not have improved.  His focus will be on Arya, who is on the other side of the ocean.  But he doesn't know that.  He will murder his brothers of the watch for his assassination.  His return will cause more destabilization at the wall and in the north.  The man who was supposed to protect the realms of men from the white walkers is the one who was single-handedly responsible for destroying the order of the night's watch. 

I will soon be doing Daenerys Targaryen.

 

 

[Rondo]

4 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So as I outlined previously, Jon's and Dany's arks in ADWD mirrors each other quite a lot, ending in roughly the same situation. Both are screwed badly, with Jon currently being a permanent visitor inside Ghost while Dany is all alone in the Dothraki sea allowing GRRM the opportunity to make poop jokes. Both however also have a strong core of supporters that will probably somewhat make things right before they return, with Barristan and the Shavepate in Meereen and Tormund, Val, the wildlings, the queen's men and whatever Jon loyalists still remain on the Wall.

Now the question is how will the two change when coming back, as both will deffo go through change, Jon from his stint in Ghost, and Dany from her stint in the Dothraki sea. So how will it change them??

It is Daenerys Targaryen and Bran Stark who are the parallel characters.  Jon's line is not the same as that of Daenerys.  I agree with @James West .  Jon's personal challenge is the internal struggle between what he should be doing (duty) and what he desires to do (loyalty and love for the Starks).  Daenerys' challenge is completely different.  Hers is learning how to govern people.  Jon is not going to govern people.  Meereen is a great place because the Ghiscari need a complete makeover.  There is a lot of magic in her chapters.  Bran is the parallel because he is also learning magic to help the western realm survive through the winter.  Bran is more stable than his brothers and sisters.  Bran will do this through the magic of a green seer and a skin changer.  Bran will have to "govern" the Walking Dead and guide the living to survive.  He will know how the humans survived the last long winter.  It won't be pretty and could mean cannibalism.   

[The Sleeper]

That is a huge topic. One might even be writing a book about it. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

Jon will become more certain that what he's doing is right. He'll brush aside those conflicts about duty and family, realizing that he has to help the Starks take back Winterfell to prep the North for war. He will continue to make decisions in isolation without explaining or consulting. If he gets promoted, he won't be corrupted by power or anything, but he won't change his leadership style. The certitude he'll have about his crusade will invite blindspots in his thinking. The further south he goes the worse his tunnel vision will get and that's when we might see more of the effects of the resurrection, in which he starts to take on more tyrannical tendencies, making decisions for others and imposing his will in a martial law scenario. This might actually get to the point where he makes House Stark's alliances even shakier because of it. This mindset may be helpful to defeat the Others but we should be more worried about his inability to shut it off after the battle is over. Rather than being more perceptive, his ability to sense risk/danger will decrease (as the other Starks' abilities are increasing). He will open himself up to manipulation by Dany's smoke and mirrors.

Like Jon, Dany will have more certitude and less internal conflict (ruler vs. conqueror). Dany will become more like a Dothraki conqueror under the guise of a liberator. She'll also be more certain that she's setting the world right with dragons. She'll start learning how Drogon can decimate cities and get more comfortable being the most powerful person in the world (corruption arc in full swing). 'Dragons plant no trees' means not spending the time to grow a healthy society, and this will be her theme from here on out. However this won't be overt - we we will see the consequences of this play out indirectly on the edges of the narrative or through second-hand, so that Dany's POV still looks perfectly fine. In her head, she'll be liberating Slaver's Bay and setting Westeros on the right path and through her eyes, it may be easy to agree. However, the less adoration/praise she gets in Westeros, the less she'll care about it as a place. This is dangerous because if she doesn't care and doesn't see it as a home, then she won't care about protecting it and may actually do it harm. While Jon will also go down a dark path, he still has something material to fight for, a home and a family to ground him.

[TheLastWolf]

7 hours ago, James West said:

I will do an analysis of both characters.  Let me begin with Jon Snow. 

Cue to stop reading from then. 

Let me translate it to simple words 

Jon is incompetent. He survived for so long by sheer luck. He always abandons his duty. The crime of nearly deserting is worse than honorable poor Bowen and Co. assassinating their LC, not much like the Old Bear's fate. He sent a bloodthirsty rapist oath breaker to save the girl he thought was his sister from loyal honorable loved northern nobles called Boltons thereby dragging the NW into a political war and doing the moral ethical thing is not right. After all, we haters won't give two hoots about our sisters if she was kidnapped by a psycho rapist. Duty first. To fairy Godmother Daenerys. 

All the Starks will join forces with the Others, sacrifice babies, make the world a frozen hell, eat Skagosi cannibals for breakfast, lunch and dinner and dance around the heart of Winter. Especially after Arya burns down KL at the behest of FM and to avenge Jon. Bran is a dirty Warg. Sansa is a stupid Snob but best coz she has no direwolf that frightens us haters. Rickon.... Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah etc 

The End 

[TheLastWolf]

7 hours ago, James West said:

will soon be doing Daenerys Targaryen.

Don't bother, we all know how it'll go. 

Daenerys Targaryen, First of Her Name, Queen of Andals, Rhoynar, First Men (though her incestous Valyrian blood makes everything else unworthy) Stormborn, Fairy Godmother, mother to sweet vegan dragons, is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. All other cultures and gods are evil and must bow to her. She'll be crowned queen by the wise smallfolk eagerly waiting her arrival for tears (they just forgot her name, so what?) and she'll lay a dozen dragon eggs by Drogon and live happily ever after 

The End 

Are you Dany Worshippers/cum Stark haters by any chance working in Disney Studios? Honest Question 

[U. B. Cool]

The basic nature of people do not change.  Daenerys has great compassion for the needy and that will continue.  Jon has deep affection for the Starks.  His feelings for them will continue on to his next life in whatever shape that takes.  Only the strong survive during winter.  Those who are too dependent on the infrastructures of a government will not survive.  Sansa will not make it through.  All the rest of the main characters should.  Bran has eaten wights through his wolf.  Dany is willing to eat a horse.  Most of the guys know how to hunt.  Being able to depend on oneself will be the key to survival.  Being savage is not a negative quality when food is scarce. 

 

 

 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

9 hours ago, $erPounce said:

I will do an analysis of both characters, to make clear how they evolve in the course of the books and what will follow.

Let's start with Daenerys, who started out as a subordinate to a superior (Viserys). She has no interest in governing, rather in leading a "normal" life (see memories House with the Red Door, his desires to plant trees and become a sailor). After Viserys death she feels more or less forced to continue the Targaryen lineage. So she can forget about a carefree life.

Wow, that is so wrong. Now I do agree that Dany does have a sense of lack of belonging, expressed through her desire of a house with a Red Door, but the idea that she isn't interested in governing is so wrong.

Now you correctly pointed out that she begins AGOT as a subordinate you said, but the term I'd use is a downright slave, no power, no agency, no personality. The first time she shows any form of agency is on her wedding night, fucked up though it may be.

Slowly as AGOT progresses, through her husband she gains more and more power, and with it, more and more agency. She embraces the Dothraki because it is the first place that treats her as a person, also leading to her rebellion against Viserys. It is through power that her personality begins to take shape too. Dany in the beginning of AGOT doesn't really have a personality, but as the story progresses she develops more and more into the empathic liberator that we know. Her final moment in AGOT is when she steps into the fire. By then she has lost all power through her husband, and when faced with the choice of going meekly to Vaes Dothrak or potential death, she chooses the latter, stepping into the fire and being rewarded with power in her own right in the form of her dragons.

Dany doesn't shy away from power and rulership, Dany embraced it, and uses it to help others, that's not just what she does, that's who she is from ACOK onwards

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

8 hours ago, James West said:

I will do an analysis of both characters.  Let me begin with Jon Snow. 

Cue to stop reading from then. 

Let me translate it to simple words 

Jon is incompetent. He survived for so long by sheer luck. He always abandons his duty. The crime of nearly deserting is worse than honorable poor Bowen and Co. assassinating their LC, not much like the Old Bear's fate. He sent a bloodthirsty rapist oath breaker to save the girl he thought was his sister from loyal honorable loved northern nobles called Boltons thereby dragging the NW into a political war and doing the moral ethical thing is not right. After all, we haters won't give two hoots about our sisters if she was kidnapped by a psycho rapist. Duty first. To fairy Godmother Daenerys. 

It's remarkable how spot on you are in this case. To the tee

[Alyn Oakenfist]

8 hours ago, Rondo said:

Jon is not going to govern people. 

Because the Nights Watch and probably the North in TWOW are not people?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Don't bother, we all know how it'll go. 

Daenerys Targaryen, First of Her Name, Queen of Andals, Rhoynar, First Men (though her incestous Valyrian blood makes everything else unworthy) Stormborn, Fairy Godmother, mother to sweet vegan dragons, is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. All other cultures and gods are evil and must bow to her. She'll be crowned queen by the wise smallfolk eagerly waiting her arrival for tears (they just forgot her name, so what?) and she'll lay a dozen dragon eggs by Drogon and live happily ever after 

The End 

Are you Dany Worshippers/cum Stark haters by any chance working in Disney Studios? Honest Question 

Btw did you notice how they posted one after the other. And in the same bloody style. I'm beginning to think @Rose of Red Lake's theory about there being fake accounts is more accurate then we might have thought

[Rose of Red Lake]

42 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Btw did you notice how they posted one after the other. And in the same bloody style. I'm beginning to thing @Rose of Red Lake's theory about there being fake accounts is more accurate then we might have thought

Look at the spacing between sentences. Rondo, U.B. Cool, and James West all use the same old school style, double space bar.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Look at the spacing between sentences. Rondo, U.B. Cool, and James West all use the same old school style, double space bar.

I'd also like to point out that all three of them, alongside Bowen Boeing are 3 to 5 bullet members who joined in summer 2016.

Yeah, I definitely agree with you now

[$erPounce]

4 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Wow, that is so wrong. Now I do agree that Dany does have a sense of lack of belonging, expressed through her desire of a house with a Red Door, but the idea that she isn't interested in governing is so wrong.

Now you correctly pointed out that she begins AGOT as a subordinate you said, but the term I'd use is a downright slave, no power, no agency, no personality. The first time she shows any form of agency is on her wedding night, fucked up though it may be.

Slowly as AGOT progresses, through her husband she gains more and more power, and with it, more and more agency. She embraces the Dothraki because it is the first place that treats her as a person, also leading to her rebellion against Viserys. It is through power that her personality begins to take shape too. Dany in the beginning of AGOT doesn't really have a personality, but as the story progresses she develops more and more into the empathic liberator that we know. Her final moment in AGOT is when she steps into the fire. By then she has lost all power through her husband, and when faced with the choice of going meekly to Vaes Dothrak or potential death, she chooses the latter, stepping into the fire and being rewarded with power in her own right in the form of her dragons.

Dany doesn't shy away from power and rulership, Dany embraced it, and uses it to help others, that's not just what she does, that's who she is from ACOK onwards

It is certainly true that Daenerys is looking for a home, that is one of the more important themes in Daenerys' storyline. She seeks out the warmth she had in Braavos. She didn't get it after they had to flee the house and after Viserys had to sell her mother's crown (which was so dear to him) in order to survive. Without the crown Viserys no longer had a proof of authority in Essos, nor a material memory of Westeros. Since then, he has had an abusive relationship with Daenerys, whom he most likely blamed for their mother's death and the selling of the crown. Daenerys no longer got the warmth and appreciation she used to have, she was experienced by Viserys more as a burden - he himself was also a teenager with a very disturbed childhood and far too many responsibilities. I certainly do not approve of Viserys' behaviour, but I do understand how it could have come to this. 

With the Dothraki Daenerys had the appreciation she missed for the first time since Braavos. She now felt that her life had some meaning. But I still have the feeling that she doesn't crave a position of power in Westeros - she just wants a home and appreciation. Daenerys has no connection whatsoever with Westeros except his ancestors and Viserys - she only knows it from stories and fairy tales, she grew up her whole life is Essos.

I will prove this with Daenerys IX , where the quote "If I look back I am lost" first appeared. She had a fever dream where she saw and passed the House with the Red Door and the Dothraki Sea, two places she considered a home and where she knew warmth. However, she is not allowed to "look back" because she doesn't want "to wake the dragon". Forward lies only the path to Westeros, which Viserys calls the promised paradise. This is ordered by Viserys as her destiny, because she is "the last dragon". This is the meaning I give to this fever dream. 

After all, Daenerys has shown more often that she wants a "normal life", without the obligations:

• Dany could hear the singing of the red priests as they lit their night fires and the shouts of ragged children playing games beyond the walls of the estate. For a moment she wished she could be out there with them, barefoot and breathless and dressed in tatters, with no past and no future and no feast to attend at Khal Drogo's manse. (Daenerys I, AGOT)
• She even liked the sailors, with all their songs and stories. Once on a voyage to Braavos, as she'd watched the crew wrestle down a great green sail in a rising gale, she had even thought how fine it would be to be a sailor. But when she told her brother, Viserys had twisted her hair until she cried. "You are blood of the dragon," he had screamed at her. "A dragon, not some smelly fish." (Daenerys I, ASOS)
• You are a queen, her bear said. In Westeros. "It is such a long way," she complained. "I was tired, Jorah. I was weary of war. I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow. I am only a young girl." No. You are the blood of the dragon. (Daenerys X, ADWD)

These three are some of the many examples from the books. She wants a home, a carefree life and to be surrounded by happy people - that is her primary desire. With dragons and her position as queen she has the opportunity to make that possible. Power is a means to achieve the ultimate goal, but she does not crave to rule herself. She is disgusted by compromise and diplomacy (see ADWD) - she just wants a carefree society around her, which is possible as a queen. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 minutes ago, $erPounce said:

It is certainly true that Daenerys is looking for a home, that is one of the more important themes in Daenerys' storyline. She seeks out the warmth she had in Braavos. She didn't get it after they had to flee the house and after Viserys had to sell her mother's crown (which was so dear to him) in order to survive. Without the crown Viserys no longer had a proof of authority in Essos, nor a material memory of Westeros. Since then, he has had an abusive relationship with Daenerys, whom he most likely blamed for their mother's death and the selling of the crown. Daenerys no longer got the warmth and appreciation she used to have, she was experienced by Viserys more as a burden - he himself was also a teenager with a very disturbed childhood and far too many responsibilities. I certainly do not approve of Viserys' behaviour, but I do understand how it could have come to this. 

With the Dothraki Daenerys had the appreciation she missed for the first time since Braavos. She now felt that her life had some meaning. But I still have the feeling that she doesn't crave a position of power in Westeros - she just wants a home and appreciation. Daenerys has no connection whatsoever with Westeros except his ancestors and Viserys - she only knows it from stories and fairy tales, she grew up her whole life is Essos.

I will prove this with Daenerys IX , where the quote "If I look back I am lost" first appeared. She had a fever dream where she saw and passed the House with the Red Door and the Dothraki Sea, two places she considered a home and where she knew warmth. However, she is not allowed to "look back" because she doesn't want "to wake the dragon". Forward lies only the path to Westeros, which Viserys calls the promised paradise. This is ordered by Viserys as her destiny, because she is "the last dragon". This is the meaning I give to this fever dream. 

After all, Daenerys has shown more often that she wants a "normal life", without the obligations:

• Dany could hear the singing of the red priests as they lit their night fires and the shouts of ragged children playing games beyond the walls of the estate. For a moment she wished she could be out there with them, barefoot and breathless and dressed in tatters, with no past and no future and no feast to attend at Khal Drogo's manse. (Daenerys I, AGOT)
• She even liked the sailors, with all their songs and stories. Once on a voyage to Braavos, as she'd watched the crew wrestle down a great green sail in a rising gale, she had even thought how fine it would be to be a sailor. But when she told her brother, Viserys had twisted her hair until she cried. "You are blood of the dragon," he had screamed at her. "A dragon, not some smelly fish." (Daenerys I, ASOS)
• You are a queen, her bear said. In Westeros. "It is such a long way," she complained. "I was tired, Jorah. I was weary of war. I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow. I am only a young girl." No. You are the blood of the dragon. (Daenerys X, ADWD)

These three are some of the many examples from the books. She wants a home, a carefree life and to be surrounded by happy people - that is her primary desire. With dragons and her position as queen she has the opportunity to make that possible. Power is a means to achieve the ultimate goal, but she does not crave to rule herself. She is disgusted by compromise and diplomacy (see ADWD) - she just wants a carefree society around her, which is possible as a queen. 

Oh I agree she doesn't necessarily want to go to Westeros, what I was saying is that she doesn't ever shy away from power, on the contrary power is one of the things that defines her, however due to her personality, her more natural place of power is Essos, not Westeros.

[$erPounce]

12 hours ago, James West said:

I will do an analysis of both characters.  Let me begin with Jon Snow. 

...

I will soon be doing Daenerys Targaryen.

I find it funny that your post has the same structure as mine. I generally agree with the content.

4 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Btw did you notice how they posted one after the other. And in the same bloody style. I'm beginning to think @Rose of Red Lake's theory about there being fake accounts is more accurate then we might have thought

This is not the case. He probably just copied my text structure.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

4 minutes ago, $erPounce said:

This is not the case. He probably just copied my text structure.

I mean, sure, that could explain it. Shame on him

[The Commentator]

21 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So as I outlined previously, Jon's and Dany's arks in ADWD mirrors each other quite a lot, ending in roughly the same situation. Both are screwed badly, with Jon currently being a permanent visitor inside Ghost while Dany is all alone in the Dothraki sea allowing GRRM the opportunity to make poop jokes. Both however also have a strong core of supporters that will probably somewhat make things right before they return, with Barristan and the Shavepate in Meereen and Tormund, Val, the wildlings, the queen's men and whatever Jon loyalists still remain on the Wall.

Now the question is how will the two change when coming back, as both will deffo go through change, Jon from his stint in Ghost, and Dany from her stint in the Dothraki sea. So how will it change them??

The year is off to a good start.  A provocative topic from you.  Followed by somebody criticizing Dany.  Followed by another fan criticizing Jon.  The readers are divided over these two.  I am a Dany supporter and a Jon critic.  I acknowledge that there are readers who have a totally different opinion. 
 

You have the right to post your opinion.  Every forum member has that right.  So it really should not bother you when people express theirs.  I will give my opinion.

Daenerys Targaryen - She’s going back to where it all began.  The Dothraki.  The Khalasars won’t give up slavery voluntarily.  Daenerys can either give up her goals of making slaves free or she can force the khalasars to change.  Sweet talk won’t do it.  A show of force which will involve violence will be required. This is justified in my opinion.  The South only agreed to end slavery after a bloody Civil War.  Force is sometimes necessary and justified.  Embracing her family’s heritage is not a bad thing.  The Targaryens made possible long periods of peace in Westeros.

Jon Snow - He died with Arya and needle on his mind. If he comes back, I believe he will, his last thoughts will still be his goals. That will obviously mean war.  The Boltons aren’t giving in.  Jon won’t let anything stop him from rescuing his sister. Not even death. Part of the tragedy is his lack of knowledge.  He really knows nothing.  It’s Jeyne, not Arya.  Martin set this tragedy up beautifully.  Jon will ride for Winterfell with Ghost.  He won’t be thinking peace, duty, and flowers.  His thoughts betrayed him.  “Stick em with the pointy end” will happen before he leaves the wall.  This guy will come back mean and itching for a fight.