Alyn Oakenfist Posted January 2, 2021 Author Share Posted January 2, 2021 5 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said: You have the right to post your opinion. Every forum member has that right. So it really should not bother you when people express theirs. Never said it does. As you said everyone can post their opinions. But that doesn't mean we can't debate or argue against said opinions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commentator Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 11 hours ago, TheLastWolf said: Cue to stop reading from then. Let me translate it to simple words Jon is incompetent. He survived for so long by sheer luck. He always abandons his duty. The crime of nearly deserting is worse than honorable poor Bowen and Co. assassinating their LC, not much like the Old Bear's fate. He sent a bloodthirsty rapist oath breaker to save the girl he thought was his sister from loyal honorable loved northern nobles called Boltons thereby dragging the NW into a political war and doing the moral ethical thing is not right. After all, we haters won't give two hoots about our sisters if she was kidnapped by a psycho rapist. Duty first. To fairy Godmother Daenerys. All the Starks will join forces with the Others, sacrifice babies, make the world a frozen hell, eat Skagosi cannibals for breakfast, lunch and dinner and dance around the heart of Winter. Especially after Arya burns down KL at the behest of FM and to avenge Jon. Bran is a dirty Warg. Sansa is a stupid Snob but best coz she has no direwolf that frightens us haters. Rickon.... Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah etc Hey Last Wolf, it goes both ways. It’s all good. Just dedicated readers expressing their opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commentator Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 Just now, Alyn Oakenfist said: Never said it does. As you said everyone can post their opinions. But that doesn't mean we can't debate or argue against said opinions Absolutely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 15 hours ago, TheLastWolf said: Don't bother, we all know how it'll go. Daenerys Targaryen, First of Her Name, Queen of Andals, Rhoynar, First Men (though her incestous Valyrian blood makes everything else unworthy) Stormborn, Fairy Godmother, mother to sweet vegan dragons, is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. All other cultures and gods are evil and must bow to her. She'll be crowned queen by the wise smallfolk eagerly waiting her arrival for tears (they just forgot her name, so what?) and she'll lay a dozen dragon eggs by Drogon and live happily ever after The End Are you Dany Worshippers/cum Stark haters by any chance working in Disney Studios? Honest Question What's your point? People have different opinions than you. Get over it. You honestly sound like a 10 year old here. As to the topic at hand both characters are going to get a lot darker. In Jon's case will be a good thing because it might actually turn him to an interesting character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted January 2, 2021 Author Share Posted January 2, 2021 50 minutes ago, El Guapo said: As to the topic at hand both characters are going to get a lot darker. In Jon's case will be a good thing because it might actually turn him to an interesting character. Yeah, that is pretty much guaranteed if the tone GRRM seems to want to set is any indication. And yes I do agree about Jon becoming interesting, he's probably the most boring out of the 3 main protagonists right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 4 hours ago, El Guapo said: What's your point? People have different opinions than you. Get over it. You honestly sound like a 10 year old here. Once you get that, the rest is meaningless. Dany worshippers are behaving racist for one. Valyrian blood advocates. Then comes irrational biased hatred. Et cetera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
U. B. Cool Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 16 hours ago, El Guapo said: What's your point? People have different opinions than you. Get over it. You honestly sound like a 10 year old here. As to the topic at hand both characters are going to get a lot darker. In Jon's case will be a good thing because it might actually turn him to an interesting character. They will get darker because the world is getting darker. It's for the good in Dany's case. She will need to get brutal to defeat the Masters. Jon's path to darkness is a mixed bag because revenge will be his primary objective. Revenge doesn't lead to positive results for the people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 12 hours ago, TheLastWolf said: Once you get that, the rest is meaningless. Dany worshippers are behaving racist for one. Valyrian blood advocates. Then comes irrational biased hatred. Et cetera. You [Rhaego] are the true dragon." "Targaryens did not mingle their blood with lesser men" "If it were not for the blood of the dragon, this could be my home" "Mine is the blood of the dragon" "The blood of the dragon would not be herded through the bazaar by an old man and a fat eunuch." "I am the blood of the dragon. Do not presume to teach me lessons" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted January 3, 2021 Author Share Posted January 3, 2021 48 minutes ago, U. B. Cool said: Revenge doesn't lead to positive results for the people. There are 163 crucified masters that agree with you on that one. Also MMD who was burned alive for preventing genocide. Like seriously what does Jon do in terms of revenge? Kill a public and outspoken mutineer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 14 hours ago, TheLastWolf said: Once you get that, the rest is meaningless. Dany worshippers are behaving racist for one. Valyrian blood advocates. Then comes irrational biased hatred. Et cetera. That's nice. Still doesn't address the fact that you have seem to have a big issue with people not sharing your opinion of certain characters. Get over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor the Articulate Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 6 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: There are 163 crucified masters that agree with you on that one. Also MMD who was burned alive for preventing genocide. Like seriously what does Jon do in terms of revenge? Kill a public and outspoken mutineer? I wasn't going to jump into this shitstew.... but I have to point out that not all vengeance is equal. Jon executing his father's betrayer is not the same as Dany punishing the GM for stringing up slave children just to taunt her. Justified as it may have been, the former is performed purely to satisfy Jon's hurt and anger. Dany's actions were that too, but it was also done behalf of the slaves i.e. it was driven by empathy. You could make an argument for Jon's vengeful acts being comparable to Dany's burning of MMD. But leaving out that the motivation for MMD's execution was that she had murdered Dany's child and husband is intellectually dishonest. You aren't even accurate; Drogo and the SWMTW were going to conquer the world, not exterminate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 4 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said: I wasn't going to jump into this shitstew.... but I have to point out that not all vengeance is equal. Jon executing his father's betrayer is not the same as Dany punishing the GM for stringing up slave children just to taunt her. Justified as it may have been, the former is performed purely to satisfy Jon's hurt and anger. Dany's actions were that too, but it was also done behalf of the slaves i.e. it was driven by empathy. You could make an argument for Jon's vengeful acts being comparable to Dany's burning of MMD. But leaving out that the motivation for MMD's execution was that she had murdered Dany's child and husband is intellectually dishonest. You aren't even accurate; Drogo and the SWMTW were going to conquer the world, not exterminate it. I’ve no issue with either Janos Slynt or the 163. They all had it coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted January 4, 2021 Author Share Posted January 4, 2021 6 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said: Jon executing his father's betrayer You unintentionally hit the nail on the head. Executing. For mutiny and insuordination. And he even bloody gave him second chances, until Janos publicly mutineed. 6 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said: the former is performed purely to satisfy Jon's hurt and anger No it was what any Lord Commander would have done with any brother in open mutiny 6 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said: You aren't even accurate; Drogo and the SWMTW were going to conquer the world, not exterminate it. When mongols and Dothraki conquered genocide ensued. Just ask the over 40 million people the mongols killed. Or the Sarnori. Oh wait. You can't. Cause the Dothraki wiped them out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor the Articulate Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 On 1/4/2021 at 8:05 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said: You unintentionally hit the nail on the head. Executing. For mutiny and insuordination. And he even bloody gave him second chances, until Janos publicly mutineed. No it was what any Lord Commander would have done with any brother in open mutiny Mutiny? Refusing an order isn't mutiny. Jon was well within his rights to execute Janos but let's not pretend it was an objective action that any NW commander would take. The scene was interspersed with thoughts such as: There is blood between us. This man helped slay my father and did his best to have me killed as well. I am giving you a chance, my lord. It is more than you ever gave my father. If you insist viewing this as objective, you must also apply the standard to Dany and MMD. MMD betrayed Dany and murdered her husband and child. It was an execution as fair and "legal" as Janos'. On 1/4/2021 at 8:05 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said: When mongols and Dothraki conquered genocide ensued. Just ask the over 40 million people the mongols killed. Or the Sarnori. Oh wait. You can't. Cause the Dothraki wiped them out. I didn't realise GRRM wrote real life ethnic groups into his fantasy story. The Sanori are irrelevant to this conversation. Your claim was that the SWMTW was going to commit genocide. Where in the prophecy does it say that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted January 5, 2021 Author Share Posted January 5, 2021 12 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said: Mutiny? Refusing an order isn't mutiny. It is. According to the definition: "Mutiny is a revolt among a group of people (typically of a military or of a crew) to oppose, change, or overthrow an organization to which they were previously loyal." Now, tbf Janos was not attempting to overthrows anything, but he was clearly opposing Jon's authority with the you can shove it up your bastard ass thing. 14 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said: but let's not pretend it was an objective action that any NW commander would take. It was. For many reasons. The main one being, you need to show you strength. Any Lord Commander who let that pass would have no authority going forward. Who would obey any orders afterwards, hm? 15 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said: The scene was interspersed with thoughts such as: There is blood between us. This man helped slay my father and did his best to have me killed as well. I am giving you a chance, my lord. It is more than you ever gave my father. Just because he had further reason for what he did doesn't mean it wasn't right. 16 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said: If you insist viewing this as objective, you must also apply the standard to Dany and MMD. MMD betrayed Dany and murdered her husband and child. It was an execution as fair and "legal" as Janos'. Oh, I agree. The only difference is that MMD actually did something good by ending Drogo and Rhaego. 18 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said: The Sanori are irrelevant to this conversation. How come. They, along with the Qarteen are the only peoples the Dothraki conquered, both genocided into near extinction. I think it shows very well what a Dothraki conquest entails 19 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said: Your claim was that the SWMTW was going to commit genocide. Where in the prophecy does it say that? In the usual horde conquest modus operandi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor the Articulate Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 3 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: It is. According to the definition: "Mutiny is a revolt among a group of people (typically of a military or of a crew) to oppose, change, or overthrow an organization to which they were previously loyal." Now, tbf Janos was not attempting to overthrows anything, but he was clearly opposing Jon's authority with the you can shove it up your bastard ass thing. A revolt among a group of people. One man does not a rebellion make. 6 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: It was. For many reasons. The main one being, you need to show you strength. Any Lord Commander who let that pass would have no authority going forward. Who would obey any orders afterwards, hm? Just because he had further reason for what he did doesn't mean it wasn't right. Sure, never said it wasn't. In fact, I explicitly said it was justified. My objection was that you chose to leave out some key details in order to paint Jon's actions as objective and fair and Dany's as bloodthirsty. Both acts were performed for many reasons, but they were both primarily vendettas. 16 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: How come. They, along with the Qarteen are the only peoples the Dothraki conquered, both genocided into near extinction. I think it shows very well what a Dothraki conquest entails In the usual horde conquest modus operandi The Dothraki seem content to receive gifts in place of plundering. And who will be their slaves and make them shit if they kill everyone off? Besides, I'm not sure that it counts as genocide if you kill everybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted January 5, 2021 Author Share Posted January 5, 2021 1 minute ago, Hodor the Articulate said: The Dothraki seem content to receive gifts in place of plundering. And who will be their slaves and make them shit if they kill everyone off? Because that is Dothraki raiding. Conquering is very different. Again, the Mongols show this quite well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted January 5, 2021 Author Share Posted January 5, 2021 2 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said: Dany's as bloodthirsty. Both acts were performed for many reasons, but they were both primarily vendettas. Actually I think the vendetta's were secondary reasons for both. For Jon I already outlined why, while for Dany's he was probably more of a magical clays which she knew to use because reasons, and because the birth of the dragons is really badly explained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broken one Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 27 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said: Refusing an order I cannot even imagine a Templar or Teutonic knight doing that. In case of military organisation service in which is punishment itself... One of things I do not understand in the books is why the NW are, generally, very nice people. Why in the Castle Black there is no big gallow, scaffold, whipping post etc. They should be there and not only to gather dust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor the Articulate Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 10 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Because that is Dothraki raiding. Conquering is very different. Again, the Mongols show this quite well Dothraki are not Mongols. They are a made up fantasy race. Do they discriminate between conquest and raiding? Seems like it's all kill, plunder, rape, enslave. 11 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Actually I think the vendetta's were secondary reasons for both. For Jon I already outlined why, while for Dany's he was probably more of a magical clays which she knew to use because reasons, and because the birth of the dragons is really badly explained. Obviously, I think it's the opposite. Jon could have doled out non-lethal punishments and Dany could have sacrificed someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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