Who can fix Bowen Marsh's mess?

[Nathan Stark]

Love him or hate him, it is hard to argue that Jon Snow didn't make some sound decisions about the Night's Watch's future.

-The Watch needed to deny the Others an army, so he changed Watch policy, allowing the Wildlings to cross South.

-The Watch needed new men, so Jon allowed some Wildlings to take the Black.

-The Watch needed food, so Jon made a deal with the Iron Bank to get money to buy food.

-The Watch needed to man more of the Wall, so Jon sent out men to repair and man abandoned castles, along with Stannis's men.

These decisions are sound long term policy decisions, but they are not without some immediate short term drawbacks. Namely, Bowen Marsh.

Bowen Marsh is not an evil man, but he is an establishment man, a status quo man who is so used to fighting the Wildlings that he cannot see the bigger, apocalyptic picture. He knows intellectually that the Watch needs men to stop the Others, but he can't accept the need to make peace with the Wildlings.

-Bowen Marsh's propasal to defeat the Others is to close all the gates and bar all the doors and have everybody hide on top of the Wall. This isn't a solution to the problem because the Others will eventually find a way around or rather under the Wall, defeating the whole purpose.

-Bowen Marsh is worried about the food supply and uses this as a reason to oppose taking on new recruits from the wildlings. Jon makes an effort to address this concern by making a deal with the Iron Bank. Bowen Marsh just finds a new reason to be irrationally opposed to taking on new recruits from the wildlings.

Ultimately, Bowen Marsh has no alternative to any of Jon's proposals. He is simply used to fighting wildlings, even though he knows full well the Others are far worse. He represents the old style conservative faction on the wall that cannot bring itself to adapt in the face of a new and far greater threat. Because Bowen Marsh has no alternative to Jon's policies beyond closing all the gates and hiding on top of the Wall, he and his band of conspirators are left with no option other than killing Jon.

Assasinating Jon Snow doesn't actually solve the problem, not even the one Bowen Marsh thinks he's solving. There are still wildlings South of the Wall. There are still Others North of it. Bowen has his supporters, but so does Jon. What happens now that Bowen Marsh has assassinated the Lord Commander? Jon's supporters will be at the throats of Bowen's supporters and the Watch will be badly divided at a time that it needs to be united. Killing Jon Snow has not solved anything at all, but it has created a new host of disasterous crisis. On top of the problems it already had. Way to go Bowen. You have screwed over the Night's Watch.

So, can anyone of you fix Bowen Marsh's mess?

[Groo]

Don't forget that Stannis was going to take many of the wildings with him to the Dreadfort until Jon talked him into going to the mountain clans instead. I don't think Bowens' biggest fear is the wildings. I think his biggest fear is the Watch meddling in the affairs of the kingdom. I think that's the main reason he finally decided to act against Jon. I suspect he's hoping he can somehow send the wildings away or maybe just stop feeding them. He might even be planning on lying to the them and saying Stannis called for them to follow him into the mountains.

[Nathan Stark]

But Bowen Marsh was already advocating meddling in the affairs of the realm. He wanted to get on the side of the Lannisters because he sees Stannis as a lost cause.His motivations for killing Jon don't really have anything to do with meddling with Southern politics because he himself is advocating a course of action that itself influences Southern politics.

[El Guapo]

Not for nothing but wasn't it Stannis who made the decision to allow the wildings to pass through the wall. And I could be wrong but wasn't Stannis who also want to use the Wildings to help fight against the Others?

[Canon Claude]

Bowen Marsh didn’t act because he thought he had a better solution. He wanted to stop Jon’s plan because he couldn’t handle his world changing so radically. He acted out of fear and suspicion and stubborn conservatism. He wont last long either. Bowen’s mess is a Night Watch outnumbered by Free Folk whose entire loyalty was to Jon Snow. Marsh better start running.

[Nathan Stark]

35 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Not for nothing but wasn't it Stannis who made the decision to allow the wildings to pass through the wall. And I could be wrong but wasn't Stannis who also want to use the Wildings to help fight against the Others?

Kind of, but only a little bit. Stannis talked a good game about fighting the Others, but then went South to fight the Boltons, which is both great but also very much not fighting the Others. And later on it was Jon who made the decision to allow Tormund and his people through the Wall. He even got some valuable items and hostages out of that deal. At the end of the day, it was Jon left making the big moves in preparing to fight the Others, while Stannis was off fighting a different war entirely.

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

3 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Love him or hate him, it is hard to argue that Jon Snow didn't make some sound decisions about the Night's Watch's future.

-The Watch needed to deny the Others an army, so he changed Watch policy, allowing the Wildlings to cross South.

-The Watch needed new men, so Jon allowed some Wildlings to take the Black.

-The Watch needed food, so Jon made a deal with the Iron Bank to get money to buy food.

-The Watch needed to man more of the Wall, so Jon sent out men to repair and man abandoned castles, along with Stannis's men.

These decisions are sound long term policy decisions, but they are not without some immediate short term drawbacks. Namely, Bowen Marsh.

Bowen Marsh is not an evil man, but he is an establishment man, a status quo man who is so used to fighting the Wildlings that he cannot see the bigger, apocalyptic picture. He knows intellectually that the Watch needs men to stop the Others, but he can't accept the need to make peace with the Wildlings.

-Bowen Marsh's propasal to defeat the Others is to close all the gates and bar all the doors and have everybody hide on top of the Wall. This isn't a solution to the problem because the Others will eventually find a way around or rather under the Wall, defeating the whole purpose.

-Bowen Marsh is worried about the food supply and uses this as a reason to oppose taking on new recruits from the wildlings. Jon makes an effort to address this concern by making a deal with the Iron Bank. Bowen Marsh just finds a new reason to be irrationally opposed to taking on new recruits from the wildlings.

Ultimately, Bowen Marsh has no alternative to any of Jon's proposals. He is simply used to fighting wildlings, even though he knows full well the Others are far worse. He represents the old style conservative faction on the wall that cannot bring itself to adapt in the face of a new and far greater threat. Because Bowen Marsh has no alternative to Jon's policies beyond closing all the gates and hiding on top of the Wall, he and his band of conspirators are left with no option other than killing Jon.

Assasinating Jon Snow doesn't actually solve the problem, not even the one Bowen Marsh thinks he's solving. There are still wildlings South of the Wall. There are still Others North of it. Bowen has his supporters, but so does Jon. What happens now that Bowen Marsh has assassinated the Lord Commander? Jon's supporters will be at the throats of Bowen's supporters and the Watch will be badly divided at a time that it needs to be united. Killing Jon Snow has not solved anything at all, but it has created a new host of disasterous crisis. On top of the problems it already had. Way to go Bowen. You have screwed over the Night's Watch.

So, can anyone of you fix Bowen Marsh's mess?

Bowen Marsh didn't kill Jon because they had different ideas on policy.  He killed Jon to stop the Night's Watch from going to war with Ramsay.  Kill Jon and it's just the wildlings.  Wildlings vs. Boltons instead of Night's Watch vs. Boltons. 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

2 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Bowen Marsh didn't kill Jon because they had different ideas on policy.  He killed Jon to stop the Night's Watch from going to war with Ramsay.  Kill Jon and it's just the wildlings.  Wildlings vs. Boltons instead of Night's Watch vs. Boltons. 

The wildlings would win even without the Nights Watch. The wildlings handle winter conditions all their lives. They'll be able to fare much better than the Boltons, and there's still Stannis and his own army besides that. The wildlings are a wild card, sure, but the Boltons aren't going to make this work. Plus, keep in mind that the Karstarks will be on the wildlings' side after Alys returns to her home with her new husband and his warriors. The North is going back to its roots, one way or another, and they're going to enter a savage new era, especially when the Wild Wolf returns from Skagos.

[TheLastWolf]

'No one' of House Stark could fix Bowen. *cough* his mess too. 

[Nathan Stark]

4 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Bowen Marsh didn't kill Jon because they had different ideas on policy.  He killed Jon to stop the Night's Watch from going to war with Ramsay.  Kill Jon and it's just the wildlings.  Wildlings vs. Boltons instead of Night's Watch vs. Boltons. 

I don't think Bowen Marsh did kill Jon to prevent him from going to war with Ramsay. The Pink Letter might have been a timely event that helped Bowen sell his narrative to some reluctant brothers, but there is some evidence that Bowen and some of his co-conspirators were planning to get rid of Jon before the letter's arrival. Ghost tried to attack Mully hours before the letter arrived, shades of Grey Wind's behavior before the Red Wedding. Bowen and Othell Yarwick were plying Jon with mulled wine just before the letter arrived so he would be good and drunk when they killed him. The conspirators were preparing to make their move prior to the Pink Letter. They didn't act because of it.

[Pontius Pilate]

The mess is not his.  He was only obeying orders from Jon until the Pink letter came. 

[TheLastWolf]

3 hours ago, Pontius Pilate said:

The mess is not his.  He was only obeying orders from Jon until the Pink letter came. 

To the letter indeed. 

The Pink letter sparked the fear in Poor Bowen Marsh. The coward thought that death was inevitable when Stannis had died (believed so) and feared Boltons and Lannisters wrath for supporting him. Self preservation instinct. Nothing more 

[Tucu]

The Wall is probably lost already. The "cold winds are rising" around Winterfell and the Night's Watch certainly didn't remain true as they killed two Lord Commanders already. As Old Nan said:

Quote

Beyond the Wall the monsters live, the giants and the ghouls, the stalking shadows and the dead that walk, she would say, tucking him in beneath his scratchy woolen blanket, but they cannot pass so long as the Wall stands strong and the men of the Night's Watch are true

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

8 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

I don't think Bowen Marsh did kill Jon to prevent him from going to war with Ramsay. The Pink Letter might have been a timely event that helped Bowen sell his narrative to some reluctant brothers, but there is some evidence that Bowen and some of his co-conspirators were planning to get rid of Jon before the letter's arrival. Ghost tried to attack Mully hours before the letter arrived, shades of Grey Wind's behavior before the Red Wedding. Bowen and Othell Yarwick were plying Jon with mulled wine just before the letter arrived so he would be good and drunk when they killed him. The conspirators were preparing to make their move prior to the Pink Letter. They didn't act because of it.

I think the germ of the idea of killing Jon was planted as early as Jon VIII, after the argument Jon has with Marsh, Yarwyck and Septon Cellador about Leathers and Satin, and it would have come from Mormont's raven at that.

Septon Cellador drank some wine. Othell Yarwyck stabbed a sausage with his dagger. Bowen Marsh sat red-faced. The raven flapped its wings and said, "Corn, corn, kill." 

[CamiloRP]

14 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Bowen Marsh didn't kill Jon because they had different ideas on policy.  He killed Jon to stop the Night's Watch from going to war with Ramsay.  Kill Jon and it's just the wildlings.  Wildlings vs. Boltons instead of Night's Watch vs. Boltons. 

Marsh's actions were most likely planned, planned before he knew Jon planned to ride south, so that wasn't the reason.

[sweetsunray]

10 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

I don't think Bowen Marsh did kill Jon to prevent him from going to war with Ramsay. The Pink Letter might have been a timely event that helped Bowen sell his narrative to some reluctant brothers, but there is some evidence that Bowen and some of his co-conspirators were planning to get rid of Jon before the letter's arrival. Ghost tried to attack Mully hours before the letter arrived, shades of Grey Wind's behavior before the Red Wedding. Bowen and Othell Yarwick were plying Jon with mulled wine just before the letter arrived so he would be good and drunk when they killed him. The conspirators were preparing to make their move prior to the Pink Letter. They didn't act because of it.

Ghost also attacked Jon after he attacked Mully. In fact, while Ghost acted apprehensive towards Bowen Marsh, when he left back outside, after the meeting, Ghost was more aggressive to Jon hours prior to that. I don't think Ghost's aggressiveness that day has anything to do with conspiracy, but with what he smells coming with the wind. When Jon arrives at his quarters to hear that Ghost attacked Mully, he looked to the Wall just prior to it. He notices a snow sky. In other words, the snow sky is coming from north of the Wall. Ghost acts aggressive even to Jon and the raven is franctic shouting "snow!" over and over. When Jon follows Bowen Marsh outside and notices the weather turned into a blizzard, the wind is coming from the south. Later that day neither the raven nor Ghost are acting out anymore. Ghost is docile when he aims to accompany Jon out to the Shield Hall. Ghost and the raven smelled the coming of the Others that morning, until the wind shifted and blew from the south, and the Others ended up downwind.

As for Bowen Marsh, I do agree that there was conspiracy talk, but no plan yet. It's the news of Stannis's loss that trigger Bowen to act then and there.

[Rose of Red Lake]

Jon ordered Bowen that the NW should not be the first to shed blood between wildlings and NW. Who was following what order now? 

We know what Bowen will be doing with the wildlings while Jon is busy getting resurrected.

"I know all these men by their deeds. We should be fitting them for nooses, not giving them our castles." 

[Nathan Stark]

13 hours ago, Pontius Pilate said:

The mess is not his.  He was only obeying orders from Jon until the Pink letter came. 

That, and planning to assasinate the Lord Commander. As I've established above, Jon's decisions about Watch policy are sound long-term proposals for the Watch. Bowen Marsh raises a lot of objections to these ideas, but no alternatives. He just can't handle change, so his solution, killing Jon, is entirely rooted in keeping the status quo intact. He doesn't realize that this is now impossible anyway. The Others are coming, and the Watch will be fighting itself because Bowen Marsh and his allies are insecure.

[Julia H.]

I'm not sure Bowen Marsh himself will be there to fix anything. The assassination scene includes an already enraged giant, whose life had been saved by Jon Snow. Once Wun Wun realizes what's happening, Marsh and Co may well find that the first challenge they are facing is surviving the next few minutes. On the other hand, it would probably be an interesting read if Marsh stayed alive to face the situation and the questions he has avoided.

I agree that the conspiration did not start with the arrival of the Pink Letter, however, Jon's sudden change of plan may have prompted Bowen and the others to act earlier than they were going to.  

[Nathan Stark]

On 1/2/2021 at 10:23 PM, TheLastWolf said:

'No one' of House Stark could fix Bowen. *cough* his mess too. 

I see what you did there.