Why Daenerys is a better ruler and leader than Jon

[Rose of Red Lake]

5 hours ago, HerblYY said:

Not entirely. Tho we don't get too many young rulers learning to rule. We don't even have too many candidates. Only Dany, Jon, Joffrey (we know how that turned out), Sweetrobin (he's not even old enough), Tommen (neither is he) and Robb (who had his own rise, but died). Only Daenerys and Jon are left. And they do actually progress on learnig to rule.

Uh Tyrion?

And I would put Sansa in there since she is learning how favors and rewards can earn support.

[El Guapo]

6 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

When you're so far up Stark's ass that...

- Everyone else is a "Dany fan" and a "Stark hater"

- Stark fans judged "not loyal enough" are purged from the Stark Fan rolls.

- They're labeled SFINOs, Stark Fans In Name Only, and challenged in the primaries 

 

Just as applicable to some around these parts

[Rose of Red Lake]

28 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

 

Just as applicable to some around these parts

Most of the time Stark fans dont even identify as Stark fans, they're just fans of the individual characters. So this doesn't work as well.

[TheLastWolf]

13 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

At least Roose and Barbrey weren't as bad as Rickard, Brandon, Arryn, and Robert.  I'm talking about the Southron Ambition conspiracy.  It was treason.

Yeah sure. Rebelling against a mad king ruining the Realm with his irrational whims, against a prince who has kidnapped and maybe raped a would be Warden's sister and another's betrothed is surely far worse than what loyal Roose did to his liege lord, the Red Wedding, unleashing his monstrous bastard. And bitter Barbrey hell bent on revenge for a husband she didn't even love (shouldn't she have been angry on the Targs for Brandon?) and ruining everything in the process. Sure, the Southron Ambition conspiracy is not even Canon, but it won't matter to you. 

13 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Dany-haters and Stark fans are the villains of the internet.  There's going to be a day of reckoning for you.  

I know, you'll term anyone who's a fan of anything other than Dany as her hater. After all, no one can match your fervent devotion to the Fairy Godmother Queen, apart from your 1300 other accounts. Don't set her three kid nukes on us. Shudder. I'm afraid. Seriously. Honestly 

13 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Agreed. Tho you should add Stark-haters and Dany fans to the list. (Well, not all fans, just the irrational/dickish ones)

She herself will be on it then. Irrational. Tick. Just read the previous posts

Dickish. Half tick. Coz no sense of humor. Lol, I'm dickisher at times for christ sakes! Even sarcasm. Meh. Stark hating. Double tick. Dany worshipping. Triple tick. 

20 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Yes, you and all your accounts.

We know.

Shhhh. It's supposed to be a secret 

6 hours ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

It said getting cold at first.  Something like that.  Chilling read better. 

Kk

[TheLastWolf]

5 hours ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

Chaos breaks out every time a non-fan or whatever you call it

It may be a surprise, but it is called HATER 

H. A. T. E. R

5 hours ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

criticize the execution of Janos Slynt

At least you called it what it was. Execution. A few others conveniently term this murder, while the assassination of LC of NW Jon is execution by Pomegranate Loyal poor Bowen. 

6 hours ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

and the murder (oh yes it was murder) of the old man in Braavos.

Assassinatiom. After all, that's what Arya is being trained to do. FM

[Daeron the Daring]

7 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Uh Tyrion?

He's in the middle of his twenties.

 

7 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

And I would put Sansa in there since she is learning how favors and rewards can earn support.

That's rather learning hot to scheme, not how to rule, especially not how to rule a realm.

[Rose of Red Lake]

21 minutes ago, HerblYY said:

That's rather learning hot to scheme, not how to rule, especially not how to rule a realm.

It's ruling with finesse. A dragon breathing in the face of your opposition isn't going to solve every problem.

[Daeron the Daring]

53 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

It's ruling with finesse. A dragon breathing in the face of your opposition isn't going to solve every problem.

As much as it would've been acceptable (for me, of course), Sansa will never rule anything on her own.

First of all, Winterfell is nowhere reachable for her. I do believe nothern lords would rather put Jon Snow in Winterfell than her, as far as he's a Snow or a Stark. Then there's Rickon and Bran. Rickon especially had been built up as coming back to be Lord of Winterfell.

And Bran might still be fertile, we don't know how his fall influenced his thingy (He's a kid tho). 

Also, she probably will never be a spouse of the Lord of Winterfell.

Then there's the Vale of Arryn. She might, or might not be the future Lady Arryn, either trough Harry or Sweetrobin. 

She probably will never get married into Houses Tully, Tyrell, Martell and Baratheon (Assuming these houses' reign eill survive the Others). 

But there of course is Tyrion, whom se is married to. Unless Tyrion dies, she is married off, and can't be married once again. If Tyrion ever gets Casterly Rock (He has his chances), Sansa may become Lady of Casterly Rock. Yet, considering hoe many times Tyrion had been with women, and still haven't made anyone pregnant, he might be infertile.

She can easily gain influence over anyone, once that anyone is her husband. But as proven, she is, and will always be a sensitive personality. That's in her core.

Her learning how to scheme probably will play it's role in the final fate of Littlefinger.

I am very interested in the character.

 

[The Commentator]

On 1/2/2021 at 5:38 PM, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

(It should be someone like James Fenimore Cooper to compose this reaction piece but I will do my best.) 

Daenerys Targaryen is a better ruler and leader than Jon Snow.  We are all familiar with their leadership styles.  There is enough information for us to pass judgment on who the better leader is.  I will start with Jon Snow.

Jon Snow

Jon is far from the worst leader in A Song of Ice and Fire.  He is actually capable most of the time.  His biggest strength as a leader is his ability to teach.  Jon was able to teach the other less-fortunate cadets the proper use of the sword in combat.  Yes, he was an arrogant and entitled fool when he arrived.  A little man to man talk with a seasoned man helped open his eyes.  Many of the fans praise Jon for protecting the craven cadet, Samwell Tarly.  It is a well-earned praise.  Samwell would have died from fright if Jon had not stepped in and helped. 

I have established that Jon Snow is basically an average guy who has had a good training in the fighting arts.  As a leader, he is usually capable of performing his job.  However, there problems beneath his exterior.  Many of the fans have already brought it up repeatedly.   Jon has a chip on his shoulders.  Push that chip and he goes ballistic.  He is guilty of attacking Ser Alliser Thorne, a superior officer.  He has anger management issues which culminated in the inappropriate way in which he judged two guilty men, Janos Slynt and Mance Rayder.  By every laws of the land, it should have been the deserter and turncloak, Mance Rayder, who was executed.  Matters went downhill from there.  He sent the deserter and turncloak to bring his sister to him at the Wall.  This is an act of war against Roose and Ramsay Bolton.  The Night's Watch should never, and never has until now, make war against the people of The Seven Kingdoms. 

I served in the military for the better part of my early adult life.  I have never been tested in the same way as Jon was with Arya.  I will say there are a lot of men who would do as Jon did.  They would forsake their duties, no matter how critical it is, to save their sisters.  But there are still more who would do their duties and accept that they cannot help their sisters.  For proof, you only have to look at those men who are in the business of rescuing and saving people and property.  Many men would rather be at home with their families during an emergency crisis but instead they stay at their posts and do their jobs.  I knew people who went to Kuwait while they had desperate families back home.  Parents battling cancer.  Wives struggling to raise handicapped children alone.  I could go on and on.  The point is, it is not unreasonable nor is it rare for people to do their jobs even when they have critical family concerns back home.  And those men who can't do this should never be in command.  It's fine for desk jockey to always sacrifice his duties for his families.  But that is not acceptable for a commander of an organization who has been tasked with the protection of the kingdom. 

Quorin Halfhand said something in book 2.  He said of Mance Rayder, he was the best and the worst of us.  He had trouble obeying.  Jon is very much like Mance Rayder.  In many ways, he is the ideal black brother.  But he is also the worst possible.  Jon is a man gifted with martial skills.  He is a smart young man who usually makes sound decisions.  I don't think his inability to judge and prioritize will matter much with the Wildlings.  To the Free Folk, whatever the strong man says is right is right.  Might makes right with the Wildlings.  Jon does not have to be fair, nor consistent.  Laws among the Wildlings are not as well-defined. 

Daenerys Targaryen

Princess Daenerys Targaryen began the story a scared and nervous young girl.  Forced to marry into an alien culture, she used her natural intelligence to thrive.  Courage, intelligence, and determination allowed her to adapt to the Dothraki culture.  She brought the dragons back from extinction.  She had the smarts and the courage to lead her khalasar beyond the Red Waste until they reached Vaes Tolorro.  This is nothing less than remarkable for a girl of her age.  She defeated the Undying in the Palace of Dust with the help of her dragon, Drogon.  Over and over, Daenerys has managed to use her intelligence and her cunning to outmaneuver her adversaries.  She has become a very good player of the game of thrones with her own style. 

Queen Daenerys has become the conqueror and the ruler of the slaver city of Meereen.  She knows what we know.  As humans, we have a responsibility to make laws and judge the guilty.  The Meereenese masters perpetrated the most heinous war crime in the entire saga so far.  This is many times more heinous than the Red Wedding in The Twins.  The masters crucified the children of their slaves and used them to decorate the road to the city.  This kind of crime cannot go unpunished.  To do so would be to deny justice to those children.  Allowing the Meereenese to bring forth the guilty is a modern concept of peers judging peers.  It is certainly preferable to the arbitrary trial of combat being practiced in Westeros.  She is facing an enemy who refuse to fight her troops in open combat.  And yet, she refused to execute her cup bearers.  This was a smart move.  Those children can be socialized and educated away from their slaver parents.  These children will be the foundation of a free Slaver's Bay. 

The situation in Meereen is very complicated.  Skahaz, Reznak, and Hizdahr are unreliable allies.  Daenerys has been warned to be careful by Quaithe.  Yet, she reacts with reason and caution.  A Cersei would have had them all killed.  But a good leader knows that you have to trust people.  Everything carries a risk.  One person cannot manage a city of the size of Meereen.  Jorah's betrayal is revealed.  Daenerys wisely did not kill the man and instead sent him into exile.  Daenerys is a reflective, thoughtful person.  Which is a good quality for someone who has to make decisions.  She has much to learn about ruling but her potential is without limits. 

Jon is already gone.  Been done in by the men he was leading.  He’s not even supposed to be a contestant for rulership.  Dany is shaping up to be a fine one.  She has natural leadership abilities.  Charisma and charm helps.  
 

Jon could lead his pack of wolves.  That’s not ruling humans but dire wolves.  Rickon may challenge him for the that role.  

[Rose of Red Lake]

5 hours ago, HerblYY said:

Her learning how to scheme probably will play it's role in the final fate of Littlefinger.

Well I couldnt disagree more. What you call scheming I call the art of persuasion which is the basis of politics. Take Littlefinger's talents and remove the selfish chaotic motives and you have Sansa, someone who can use persuasion to address real problems. No one else has that. Dany is back on her dragon bullshit and Jon failed the class on the hidden dagger.

[Rose of Red Lake]

2 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Dany is shaping up to be a fine one.  She has natural leadership abilities.  Charisma and charm helps.  

Dany has natural conquering abilities. Doing something other than winning wars was a real challenge for her and something she really had to work at. Charisma and charm describes Sansa better, and Hizdahr actually used more charm on Daenerys than she did on anyone else in Meereen. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Dany has natural conquering abilities. Doing something other than winning wars was a real challenge for her and something she really had to work at. Charisma and charm describes Sansa better, and Hizdahr actually used more charm on Daenerys than she did on anyone else in Meereen. 

Shh, don't you know? Fairy God Queen Daenaerys Breaker of blah blah blah is a perfect ruler, who can do no wrong, and every characters either worships her or is the Antichrist. It's Danybooism 101. Not even Ser Twenty of House Goodmen is as good as her.

On a serious note, damn I'm so tired of having to mock or point out Dany's flaws because of the Dany worshipping. I like Dany, I don't want to be spending half my time on this forum criticizing her.

[Rose of Red Lake]

4 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Shh, don't you know? Fairy God Queen Daenaerys Breaker of blah blah blah is a perfect ruler, who can do no wrong, and every characters either worships her or is the Antichrist. It's Danybooism 101. Not even Ser Twenty of House Goodmen is as good as her.

On a serious note, damn I'm so tired of having to mock or point out Dany's flaws because of the Dany worshipping. I like Dany, I don't want to be spending half my time on this forum criticizing her.

Well you know something is off when other characters' positive attributes are given to Dany. She could just be great at 1 or 2 things, but that's not enough for the dragon. She is the seed of kings and conquerors, and all positive traits belong to her. 

[El Guapo]

6 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Shh, don't you know? Fairy God Queen Daenaerys Breaker of blah blah blah is a perfect ruler, who can do no wrong, and every characters either worships her or is the Antichrist. It's Danybooism 101. Not even Ser Twenty of House Goodmen is as good as her.

On a serious note, damn I'm so tired of having to mock or point out Dany's flaws because of the Dany worshipping. I like Dany, I don't want to be spending half my time on this forum criticizing her.

Well you are tiring yourself out for nothing because most Dany fans fully admit she has flaws which is the primary reason why she is such a great character.

[Pontius Pilate]

On 1/2/2021 at 5:38 PM, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

(It should be someone like James Fenimore Cooper to compose this reaction piece but I will do my best.) 

Daenerys Targaryen is a better ruler and leader than Jon Snow.  We are all familiar with their leadership styles.  There is enough information for us to pass judgment on who the better leader is.  I will start with Jon Snow.

Jon Snow

Jon is far from the worst leader in A Song of Ice and Fire.  He is actually capable most of the time.  His biggest strength as a leader is his ability to teach.  Jon was able to teach the other less-fortunate cadets the proper use of the sword in combat.  Yes, he was an arrogant and entitled fool when he arrived.  A little man to man talk with a seasoned man helped open his eyes.  Many of the fans praise Jon for protecting the craven cadet, Samwell Tarly.  It is a well-earned praise.  Samwell would have died from fright if Jon had not stepped in and helped. 

I have established that Jon Snow is basically an average guy who has had a good training in the fighting arts.  As a leader, he is usually capable of performing his job.  However, there problems beneath his exterior.  Many of the fans have already brought it up repeatedly.   Jon has a chip on his shoulders.  Push that chip and he goes ballistic.  He is guilty of attacking Ser Alliser Thorne, a superior officer.  He has anger management issues which culminated in the inappropriate way in which he judged two guilty men, Janos Slynt and Mance Rayder.  By every laws of the land, it should have been the deserter and turncloak, Mance Rayder, who was executed.  Matters went downhill from there.  He sent the deserter and turncloak to bring his sister to him at the Wall.  This is an act of war against Roose and Ramsay Bolton.  The Night's Watch should never, and never has until now, make war against the people of The Seven Kingdoms. 

I served in the military for the better part of my early adult life.  I have never been tested in the same way as Jon was with Arya.  I will say there are a lot of men who would do as Jon did.  They would forsake their duties, no matter how critical it is, to save their sisters.  But there are still more who would do their duties and accept that they cannot help their sisters.  For proof, you only have to look at those men who are in the business of rescuing and saving people and property.  Many men would rather be at home with their families during an emergency crisis but instead they stay at their posts and do their jobs.  I knew people who went to Kuwait while they had desperate families back home.  Parents battling cancer.  Wives struggling to raise handicapped children alone.  I could go on and on.  The point is, it is not unreasonable nor is it rare for people to do their jobs even when they have critical family concerns back home.  And those men who can't do this should never be in command.  It's fine for desk jockey to always sacrifice his duties for his families.  But that is not acceptable for a commander of an organization who has been tasked with the protection of the kingdom. 

Quorin Halfhand said something in book 2.  He said of Mance Rayder, he was the best and the worst of us.  He had trouble obeying.  Jon is very much like Mance Rayder.  In many ways, he is the ideal black brother.  But he is also the worst possible.  Jon is a man gifted with martial skills.  He is a smart young man who usually makes sound decisions.  I don't think his inability to judge and prioritize will matter much with the Wildlings.  To the Free Folk, whatever the strong man says is right is right.  Might makes right with the Wildlings.  Jon does not have to be fair, nor consistent.  Laws among the Wildlings are not as well-defined. 

Daenerys Targaryen

Princess Daenerys Targaryen began the story a scared and nervous young girl.  Forced to marry into an alien culture, she used her natural intelligence to thrive.  Courage, intelligence, and determination allowed her to adapt to the Dothraki culture.  She brought the dragons back from extinction.  She had the smarts and the courage to lead her khalasar beyond the Red Waste until they reached Vaes Tolorro.  This is nothing less than remarkable for a girl of her age.  She defeated the Undying in the Palace of Dust with the help of her dragon, Drogon.  Over and over, Daenerys has managed to use her intelligence and her cunning to outmaneuver her adversaries.  She has become a very good player of the game of thrones with her own style. 

Queen Daenerys has become the conqueror and the ruler of the slaver city of Meereen.  She knows what we know.  As humans, we have a responsibility to make laws and judge the guilty.  The Meereenese masters perpetrated the most heinous war crime in the entire saga so far.  This is many times more heinous than the Red Wedding in The Twins.  The masters crucified the children of their slaves and used them to decorate the road to the city.  This kind of crime cannot go unpunished.  To do so would be to deny justice to those children.  Allowing the Meereenese to bring forth the guilty is a modern concept of peers judging peers.  It is certainly preferable to the arbitrary trial of combat being practiced in Westeros.  She is facing an enemy who refuse to fight her troops in open combat.  And yet, she refused to execute her cup bearers.  This was a smart move.  Those children can be socialized and educated away from their slaver parents.  These children will be the foundation of a free Slaver's Bay. 

The situation in Meereen is very complicated.  Skahaz, Reznak, and Hizdahr are unreliable allies.  Daenerys has been warned to be careful by Quaithe.  Yet, she reacts with reason and caution.  A Cersei would have had them all killed.  But a good leader knows that you have to trust people.  Everything carries a risk.  One person cannot manage a city of the size of Meereen.  Jorah's betrayal is revealed.  Daenerys wisely did not kill the man and instead sent him into exile.  Daenerys is a reflective, thoughtful person.  Which is a good quality for someone who has to make decisions.  She has much to learn about ruling but her potential is without limits. 

Bran is the closest parallel to Daenerys.  She will become the greatest Targaryen of them all.  She has already started to demolish the slave trade at a young age.  Bran will become the greatest greenseer of all. 

Westeros has not had a capable ruler since the death of her grandfather.  Aerys was fine when he started but PTSD messed him up.  Robert destroyed the economy.  Stannis, Robb, and Renly broke the kingdom.  Jon betrayed the Night's Watch and Euron mobilized the ironborn for war.  Westeros is in bad hands.  Daenerys will come in and lead the people to safety.  The Others are invincible as long as the weather is in their favor.  The people can relocate to warmer climates temporarily.  Dorne, Sothoryos, and Essos will not freeze.  The freedmen will return to their homelands and become good ambassadors for her cause.  Taking back Westeros will have to wait until the winter ends. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

6 hours ago, El Guapo said:

Well you are tiring yourself out for nothing because most Dany fans fully admit she has flaws which is the primary reason why she is such a great character.

I'm not talking about Dany fans, those are great, I'm talking about the Dany worshippers that think she's the Messiah abd everyone else the antichrist

[BlackLightning]

13 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Dany has natural conquering abilities. Doing something other than winning wars was a real challenge for her and something she really had to work at. Charisma and charm describes Sansa better, and Hizdahr actually used more charm on Daenerys than she did on anyone else in Meereen. 

Yes. This is Daenerys' problem

It's also problem that Jon Snow also shares with a few deviations here and there. Dany comes at it from a more intellectual and social angle of "hard power vs. soft power, mercy vs. retribution, free societies vs. indentured societies." Jon is coming at it from an more spirited, emotional angle of pride, history, belonging and pressing needs and desires that are personal and universal.

They are both wartime leaders. Unlike Robert Baratheon (another wartime leader), they really work hard and mean well. But they struggle and end up failing. Daenerys Targaryen doesn't fail as miserably as Jon Snow does because: 1) all of the compromises and overtures Dany ended up saved her in a roundabout way, 2) she kept her friends close, 3) she didn't over-involve herself in the toxic affairs of Yunkai, Qarth and Volantis, 4) her ego is smaller and healthier and 5) she was wise/insightful/in-tune enough to get the hell out when the opportunity presented itself.

They both are getting second chances (not that it will matter because they are still not really suited for peacetime rule) but Dany has a sizeable head start on Jon. She is a better peacetime ruler and leader than Jon Snow is but it doesn't mean that she is the best choice to rule Westeros. Honestly, there is a very good chance that Dany may walk away from the Iron Throne because she finds the concept of ruling a post-war Westeros boring. She already is bored and unhappy with ruling by the end of Dance.

Although Dany loves bad boys and finds conquest, war and competition thrilling (if I had to name one character in this series as an Aries, it'd be Daenerys), it is made very clear several times over that Dany would much rather be barefoot and pregnant with good neighbors, a strong husband and a batch of cookies in the oven. Ruling is necessity and a logical means to the end she wants. It's not something she wants or even truly enjoys in her heart-of-hearts.

4 hours ago, Pontius Pilate said:

Dorne, Sothoryos, and Essos will not freeze.

I strongly disagree.

Sothryos may not freeze but Dorne and Essos will. The "it never snows in Dorne" and "all the storms of the Narrow Sea pass by Dorne" stuff are tell-tale setups for s___ to hit the fan in Dorne. Besides, there's a good chance that Dorne may either be completely overran by the wights, completely overran by the Dothraki, burnt to a crisp with dragonfire or all of the above.

Did you read the last third of A Dance with Dragons? It is very cold in Braavos now, so cold that many of the canals are becoming pocketed with ice. And the arrival of winter is completely changing the Dothraki Sea. The vibrant, rich green of its grasses are now brown, dried and wilted and it's getting windier.

The stories about the Long Night are told all over Essos for a reason.

The only parts of Essos I don't see falling victim to winter are Asshai and what's left of Valyria.

4 hours ago, Pontius Pilate said:

Bran is the closest parallel to Daenerys.  She will become the greatest Targaryen of them all.  She has already started to demolish the slave trade at a young age.  Bran will become the greatest Stark of them all. 

I agree. This is where GRRM has been going for some time.

Bran is the ice, Dany is the fire and Jon is the song that sees both come together.

Look at their parents. It's the writing on the walls. Dany's parents are both fire. Bran's father is ice and his mother is freshwater (another form of ice, particularly as freshwater freezes very easily and very quickly). Jon's father is fire and his mother is ice.

Some people can be both very good leaders in peacetime and wartime. Ned Stark, Tywin Lannister and Aegon I Targaryen come to mind. Some people are just bad leaders overall (i.e. Cersei Lannister) are either good peacetime leaders or good wartime leaders.

[The Commentator]

21 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Dany has natural conquering abilities. Doing something other than winning wars was a real challenge for her and something she really had to work at. Charisma and charm describes Sansa better, and Hizdahr actually used more charm on Daenerys than she did on anyone else in Meereen. 

Sansa is a fool.  Harry just wants to sleep with her.  It’s Daenerys who has the charm and the charisma.

 

 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

8 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

It’s Daenerys who has the charm and the charisma.

Yes, long live the Fairy God Queen, Daenaerys Targaryen, breaker of blah blah blah!

We know!!!

[El Guapo]

8 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I'm not talking about Dany fans, those are great, I'm talking about the Dany worshippers that think she's the Messiah abd everyone else the antichrist

Yeah nice strawman you got there.