Alyn Oakenfist Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 2 minutes ago, SeanF said: Jon is likely the offspring of a bigamous marriage, so that would call into question any claim he might have to the Iron Throne. So was Aenys I. He ascended with no one batting an eye. Saying Dany had a better claim, is like saying Visenya should have inherited and not Aenys. Actually it's worse cause Visenya could at least claim to be the older sister. Dany doesn't even have that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 3 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: So was Aenys I. He ascended with no one batting an eye. Saying Dany had a better claim, is like saying Visenya should have inherited and not Aenys. Actually it's worse cause Visenya could at least claim to be the older sister. Dany doesn't even have that. Aenys I is not a happy precedent, nor is Maegor, who was after all, sent into exile for a bigamous marriage. There has been no bigamous royal marriage since that time. Although, utlimately, politics would prevail, I think that many of the Most Devout would refuse to see such a marriage as valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 Just now, SeanF said: I think that many of the Most Devout would refuse to see such a marriage as valid. If the Lannisters are on the Throne? Definitely If Jon is on the Throne? They'd be on their knees praising him, talking about precedent and considering him to be legitimate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron the Daring Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 31 minutes ago, SeanF said: Jon is likely the offspring of a bigamous marriage, so that would call into question any claim he might have to the Iron Throne. Even if Westeros would not, Daenerys would still see him as rather rightful than herself. She does not seem to be as oppressive against poligamy as other Targaryens were after Maegor, since she wasn't growing up between those people, and noone told her that it's bad from a point of view. Yet, that might not even matter, if noone will ride a dragon, but Daenerys. That's not the way I imagine it, however. Neither I do imagine Daenerys being straigh hostile with another Targaryen. People forget that at the end of ADWD, Daenerys desires home, and rulership is a duty for her. Will that change? I dunno. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watery Wal Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 31 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Fair enough. The point is however, that however way you take it, Dany is not currently the rightful monarch. That is either Tommen, Stannis, Jon or Aegon depending on how you define the rightful monarch. Neither of the targs are rightful heir, but Dany is the most likely candidate to win the iron throne by conquest. I don’t think she’ll win the throne by her own army and then pass the crown to Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 1 hour ago, Ewan McGregor said: She will be the one to stop the cycle of war and vengeance. She will deal with both the scheming lions and the vengeful wolves. Those who do not accept to be part of her better word will be eliminated. Doesn't answer my question which you quoted. And the emboldened part, shudder. If all people were like you, this forum would be a most cheerful place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 10 minutes ago, Watery Wal said: I don’t think she’ll win the throne by her own army and then pass the crown to Jon. I mean I'm guessing something similar, but far more long and with actual character motivation. My guess is: - Dany arrives, and driven by her dreams declares Aegon a Blackfyre and promptly incinerates him, though not before he tames a dragon, forcing Dany to kill one of her children. - At some point during all of this the wildfire will be accidentally lit, burning the city down. - At this point Dany isn't the most popular ruler, being seen as a tyrannical usurper and kinslayer, so she needs to deal with constant uprisings and Faith Militant Uprising round 2 electric boogaloo, while she, with the death of one of her children, will not be very inclined towards mercy, compassion or compromise - When Jon arrives with the news of the Wall falling, she jumps on the chance to A, actually help the people and B, get away from the South. In the process she and Jon fall in love - R+L=J is revealed and Jon mounts a dragon. War of the Dawn happens, both of them make it out, but their dragons both die. - Without any more dragons, and her source of power thus gone, and with the populace south of the Neck still hating her, she calls for a great council, in which Jon is elected and they marry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 1 hour ago, Ewan McGregor said: Hazzea was a sacrifice for the greater good Ewan McGregor, Gellert Grindelwald suits you better. Pure bloods! Rally to me and Albus. I won't insult Dumbledore anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 4 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said: When people get into discussing Jon's heritage, and also consider him being legitimate or illegitimate, I always wonder how near everyone ignores this: What character development would Jon receive from being Rhaegar's bastard, not Ned's? That's the point of him. That he's not a bastard. Being Rhaegar's bastard might give him right to ride a dragon, but that's not what he always desired. Instead, he always dreamt of being legitimate. He might also be legitimized as a Targaryen afterwards, but who would do such a thing? And don't come to me with the "He will ignore it, because he's a Stark, or something", because blood does not turn into water, never will. And he knows this. When it comes to Jon’s heritage and how it will be used to Jon’s character development I don’t think that it will matter. For Jon Ned is his father. Quote He is not my father. The thought leapt unbidden to Jon's mind. Lord Eddard Stark is my father. I will not forget him, no matter how many swords they give me. This however doesn’t mean that his heritage will not be used by his supporters. Much like Robert’s Targaryen heritage it can be used in advantage of Jon candidacy. 5 hours ago, Watery Wal said: Grrm himself said that the Kingsguard protect Jon because they are following Rhaegar’s order in that interview. It seems to me like he said why they were there not why they stayed there. They were the Kingsguard and their King was without a guard for a bastard? That is not possible. The will and safety of the King comes before of the rest of the royals. 1 hour ago, Ewan McGregor said: I do. Who else could be? Any of them. Even the cook. 1 hour ago, Ewan McGregor said: She's the rightful ruler of Westeros Even the Targaryen would disagree with this they always had a man before a woman. 1 hour ago, Ewan McGregor said: She is the las.t of the greatest line of Kings Are you serious? 1 hour ago, Ewan McGregor said: Her dragons are both a tool to fight the long night as well as a sign to her true calling Was it mentioned in the books that the dragons can fight the Others? They can kill the wights but I don’t remember if it was mentioned anything about the Others. 1 hour ago, Ewan McGregor said: Hazzea was a sacrifice for the greater good. Dany made a mistake chaining up her dragons. Her intelligence and charm are phenomenal and she could rule with just those, but she needs the dragons to fulfill her destiny. Quote What is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?" "Everything," said Davos, softly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 1 hour ago, SeanF said: Jon is likely the offspring of a bigamous marriage, so that would call into question any claim he might have to the Iron Throne. Aegon is probably a False Dmitry figure. I agree with this. This however doesn’t mean that his heritage will not be used by his supporters the same was Robert’s Targaryen heritage it can be used in advantage of Jon's candidacy. There should be a reason why we have seen so many Great Councils in such a short time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watery Wal Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 3 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: I mean I'm guessing something similar, but far more long and with actual character motivation. My guess is: - Dany arrives, and driven by her dreams declares Aegon a Blackfyre and promptly incinerates him, though not before he tames a dragon, forcing Dany to kill one of her children. - At some point during all of this the wildfire will be accidentally lit, burning the city down. - At this point Dany isn't the most popular ruler, being seen as a tyrannical usurper and kinslayer, so she needs to deal with constant uprisings and Faith Militant Uprising round 2 electric boogaloo. - When Jon arrives with the news of the Wall falling, she jumps on the chance to A, actually help the people and B get away from the South. In the process She and Jon fall in love - R+L=J is revealed and Jon mounts a dragon. War of the Dawn happens, both of them make it out, but their dragons both die. - Without any more dragons, and her source of power thus gone, and with the populace south of the Neck still hating her, she calls for a great council, in which Jon is elected and they marry. I doubt Dany will survive at the end. She might sacrifice herself in the Battle of Dawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 2 hours ago, Ewan McGregor said: I do. Who else could be? You seem to put a lot of stock in the religion based on burning people alive and who's savior killed if wife. A great religion indeed. Quote She's the rightful ruler of Westeros How can she be the rightful ruler of Westeros while at the same time the Boltons be the rightful rulers of the North? Quote She is the last of the greatest line of Kings So, do you think monarchy and eugenics are good then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 6 minutes ago, CamiloRP said: So, do you think monarchy and eugenics are good then? I'm surprised you asked this. Of course he does. See this Smh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 36 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: I agree with this. This however doesn’t mean that his heritage will not be used by his supporters the same was Robert’s Targaryen heritage it can be used in advantage of Jon's candidacy. There should be a reason why we have seen so many Great Councils in such a short time. Even if Jon was actually illegitimate, I think there would still be people who wanted him to be king. He's a man, a native, and would likely have proved himself in war, by the time the issue of the succession became live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron the Daring Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 44 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: When it comes to Jon’s heritage and how it will be used to Jon’s character development I don’t think that it will matter. For Jon Ned is his father. Blood does not turn into water. Jon and George too knows this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watery Wal Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 52 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: When it comes to Jon’s heritage and how it will be used to Jon’s character development I don’t think that it will matter. For Jon Ned is his father. This however doesn’t mean that his heritage will not be used by his supporters. Much like Robert’s Targaryen heritage it can be used in advantage of Jon candidacy. It seems to me like he said why they were there not why they stayed there. They were the Kingsguard and their King was without a guard for a bastard? That is not possible. The will and safety of the King comes before of the rest of the royals. Any of them. Even the cook. Even the Targaryen would disagree with this they always had a man before a woman. Are you serious? Was it mentioned in the books that the dragons can fight the Others? They can kill the wights but I don’t remember if it was mentioned anything about the Others. They choose Rhaegar, the future king, over the Mad King. That’s simple. Rhaegar is a selfish person. I wouldn’t surprise if he ordered the Kingsguard to protect his prophecy baby instead of his wife/child/brother/mother. Anyway, the throne belongs to the Baratheons, the Targ kids can only claim the throne by conquest. Viserys was supposed to be the “rightful heir” of the iron throne, but he lived as a poor, homeless beggar king. So it doesn’t matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewan McGregor Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: I mean I'm guessing something similar, but far more long and with actual character motivation. My guess is: - Dany arrives, and driven by her dreams declares Aegon a Blackfyre and promptly incinerates him, though not before he tames a dragon, forcing Dany to kill one of her children. - At some point during all of this the wildfire will be accidentally lit, burning the city down. - At this point Dany isn't the most popular ruler, being seen as a tyrannical usurper and kinslayer, so she needs to deal with constant uprisings and Faith Militant Uprising round 2 electric boogaloo, while she, with the death of one of her children, will not be very inclined towards mercy, compassion or compromise - When Jon arrives with the news of the Wall falling, she jumps on the chance to A, actually help the people and B, get away from the South. In the process she and Jon fall in love - R+L=J is revealed and Jon mounts a dragon. War of the Dawn happens, both of them make it out, but their dragons both die. - Without any more dragons, and her source of power thus gone, and with the populace south of the Neck still hating her, she calls for a great council, in which Jon is elected and they marry. Ah, more unbiased Dany hatred. You just can't accept that she's the destined ruler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewan McGregor Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 1 hour ago, CamiloRP said: Quote She's the rightful ruler of Westeros How can she be the rightful ruler of Westeros while at the same time the Boltons be the rightful rulers of the North? Because they serve their people. Dany is dedicated to serving her people, even with the potential collateral casualties. The Boltons saved the North from the Starks folly. Were it not for them the North would be leaderless. They were coerced into a war, but they managed to save whatever they could and return tot he North to give it stable rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watery Wal Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 3 minutes ago, Ewan McGregor said: Because they serve their people. Dany is dedicated to serving her people, even with the potential collateral casualties. The Boltons saved the North from the Starks folly. Were it not for them the North would be leaderless. They were coerced into a war, but they managed to save whatever they could and return tot he North to give it stable rule. God. I 100% confirm you’re a Dany hater who pretending to be a Dany stan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSamsa Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 3 minutes ago, Ewan McGregor said: Because they serve their people. Dany is dedicated to serving her people, even with the potential collateral casualties. The Boltons saved the North from the Starks folly. Were it not for them the North would be leaderless. They were coerced into a war, but they managed to save whatever they could and return tot he North to give it stable rule. You mean after the Boltons conspired to have the norths leader killed, they stepped up and accepted leadership with a heavy heart? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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