Why Daenerys is a better ruler and leader than Jon

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Even if Jon was actually illegitimate, I think there would still be people who wanted him to be king.  He's a man, a native, and would likely have proved himself in war, by the time the issue of the succession became live.

I agree, much like Robert, his heritage and legitimacy will only be one of the factors not that will be the centre of it.   Even if he is a bastard Westeros will be in a post apocalyptic era so everything will be back to the basics only the important things will matter and pedigree will be just the icing on the cake.

59 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Blood does not turn into water. Jon and George too knows this.

I don’t have a personal experience with that but I believe that adoptive children will disagree with your thinking. Even in the case that he is a Targaryen heir, Starks are his blood Ned was his uncle he was raised as a brother to the Stark children.  I cannot see him forgetting his family in favour of Rhaegar. Other characters might had done it but not Jon.

Quote

"He is not my father. The thought leapt unbidden to Jon’s mind. Lord Eddard Stark is my father. I will not forget him, no matter how many swords they give me."

55 minutes ago, Watery Wal said:

They choose Rhaegar, the future king, over the Mad King. That’s simple.

I don't think that is that simple, not the Kingsguard.

55 minutes ago, Watery Wal said:

Rhaegar is a selfish person. I wouldn’t surprise if he ordered the Kingsguard  to protect his prophecy baby instead of his wife/child/brother/mother.
Anyway, the throne belongs to the Baratheons, the Targ kids can only claim the throne by conquest. Viserys was supposed to be the “rightful heir” of the iron throne, but he lived as a poor, homeless beggar king. So it doesn’t matter. 

I mostly agree with this.

[Ewan McGregor]

Just now, TheSamsa said:

You mean after the Boltons conspired to have the norths leader killed, they stepped up and accepted leadership with a heavy heart?

There was nothing else they could have done.  Robb threatened his vassals at sword point to march with him on his revenge quest.  Guile was needed to remove the Starks

[TheSamsa]

Just now, Ewan McGregor said:

There was nothing else they could have done.  Robb threatened his vassals at sword point to march with him on his revenge quest.  Guile was needed to remove the Starks

I think you've read a different book then as I have.

[Ewan McGregor]

1 minute ago, TheSamsa said:

I think you've read a different book then as I have.

Did he not threaten Umber when he said he might not join?  That was coercion at sword point, and then just to prove the point he set his wolf on him, mutilating him in the process

[TheSamsa]

9 minutes ago, Ewan McGregor said:

Did he not threaten Umber when he said he might not join?  That was coercion at sword point, and then just to prove the point he set his wolf on him, mutilating him in the process

Yes he did, but only Greatjon Umber and he threatened to go home with his men. The rest did follow and only tried to test Robb, nothing more. And he didn't sent Grey Wind on him to prove a point, that was done because in reaction of Greatjon Umber drawing his sword.

He threatened a vassal, not his vassals. And only after they made their intentions clear to disobey him. Nothing unusual in this story and hardly the worst any leader has done. Also, I don't think he would've been called "King in the North" from his vassals if the majority where unhappy with his decisions.

[Daeron the Daring]

10 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

I don’t have a personal experience with that but I believe that adoptive children will disagree with your thinking. Even in the case that he is a Targaryen heir, Starks are his blood Ned was his uncle he was raised as a brother to the Stark children.  I cannot see him forgetting his family in favour of Rhaegar. Other characters might had done it but not Jon.

My parents' friends (a married couple) administraded an orphanhouse for several years, together. The children there were regularly not orphans, only a few of them. The place mostly helped for children that had a family, but their family gave up on them bc couldn't upkeep their kids. And still, several years after too, when their parents wanted to get them back, they always chose their parents. Even if the parents had been alcoholics, abusive, or careless. It did not matter what they gave them, the kids always chose their parents, no matter what. At least this is what they've told us.

But this isn't Jon's case. He's not an orphan, he was raised by his fater (or so he thinks). Both of his parents likely died. His parents probably wouldn't throw him away, don't you think? But they died. The chance to raise Jon wasn't given to Lyanna and Rhaegar (If they are his parents). In this case, a person would likely honour his parents' memory and the person that raised him too.

There's no way he'll forget his family. There is no way he'll forget what Ned did to protect him or that he grow up in Winterfell. He doesn't even have to. Shame on him, if he ever does. But if his name is Jon Targaryen, or Anyvalyrianname Targaryen, and he is in fact Rhaegar's legitimate son, I'd expect him to accept who he is, and not just throw it away because he wasn't raised by his father (to whom the chance wasn't even given to, bc he died). Also shame on him if he throws away his father's name and his memory. At least, this is how I find the situation correct.

Hope you understand now what I'm pointing at whit the "blood does not turn into water". Her biological father will always be who is.

I doubt YG would ever forget what JonCon did for him. I also doubt that he'll ever throw away the memory of his father and mother just because he never got the chance to meet them and wasn't raised by them (because his parents had no chance to do it).

[TheLastWolf]

56 minutes ago, Ewan McGregor said:

Ah, more unbiased Dany hatred.  You just can't accept that she's the destined ruler.

You know what that sounds like? 

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/184978/what-is-the-word-for-a-person-who-never-listens-to-other-peoples-opinions-and-i

Narrow-minded (“having restricted or rigid views, and being unreceptive to new ideas”), small-minded (“Selfish, petty; constrained in thought, limited in scope of consideration, not mindful of the big picture”), and previously-mentioned close-minded (“unreceptive to new ideas or information; not open to any agreement”) are all relevant, as are some of their synonyms like hidebound (“Stubborn; narrow-minded; inflexible”) and previously-mentioned pigheaded (“Obstinate and stubborn to the point of stupidity”).

 

Also consider intolerant (“... close-minded about new or different ideas. indisposed to tolerate contrary opinions or beliefs; impatient of dissent or opposition; denying or refusing the right of private opinion or choice in others ...”) and illiberal (“narrow-minded; bigoted”).

 

Calling the person blinkered, meaning fitted with blinkers, which are “eye shields attached to a hood for horses, to prevent them from seeing backwards and partially sideways” or blindered would imply they can only see straight ahead, ie only what they are already looking at.

 

Some terms mentioned in previous ELU questions (1,2,3,4,5,6) are relevant. Links to wiktionary definitions are shown.

• myopic, “narrow minded”

• solipsist, “One who adheres to self-absorption and an ignorance of the views or needs of others”

• self centered, “Of a person, egotistically obsessed with himself or herself”

• uncooperative, ie not working well with others

• ossified, lit., converted to bone, fig., inflexible and rigid in habits or opinions

53 minutes ago, Ewan McGregor said:

The Boltons saved the North from the Starks folly.  Were it not for them the North would be leaderless.  They were coerced into a war, but they managed to save whatever they could and return tot he North to give it stable rule

They were ambitious. They betrayed their king and liege lord. After swearing vows. If they had not accepted Robb as King or the Starks as Lord centuries ago I won't have a problem 

And they killed all the northern Lords in the honorable red wedding and so responsible for the leader vacuum. Like someone else pointed out lucid ly with sarcasm. My sarcasm is overloaded for most ig. 

And how saving the people and giving them stable rule? By raping and murdering and skinning innocents for fun? 

52 minutes ago, Watery Wal said:

God. I 100% confirm you’re a Dany hater who pretending to be a Dany stan.

Nah. He's sheev's alter ego. Too fanatical to be fake 

[TheLastWolf]

52 minutes ago, TheSamsa said:

You mean after the Boltons conspired to have the norths leader killed, they stepped up and accepted leadership with a heavy heart?

Spot on! 

51 minutes ago, Ewan McGregor said:

There was nothing else they could have done.  Robb threatened his vassals at sword point to march with him on his revenge quest.  Guile was needed to remove the Starks

50 minutes ago, TheSamsa said:

I think you've read a different book then as I have.

I too have the same doubts. That or he's GRRM'S alter ego with book hatred 

49 minutes ago, Ewan McGregor said:

Did he not threaten Umber when he said he might not join?  That was coercion at sword point, and then just to prove the point he set his wolf on him, mutilating him in the process

Vassal not vassal. Others were loyal to the end. Roared his name as king 

33 minutes ago, TheSamsa said:

Yes he did, but only Greatjon Umber and he threatened to go home with his men. The rest did follow and only tried to test Robb, nothing more. And he didn't sent Grey Wind on him to prove a point, that was done because in reaction of Greatjon Umber drawing his sword.

He threatened a vassal, not his vassals. And only after they made their intentions clear to disobey him. Nothing unusual in this story and hardly the worst any leader has done. Also, I don't think he would've been called "King in the North" from his vassals if the majority where unhappy with his decisions.

Sigh. Not going to change his irrationally biased hatred. But we have the Cam RP virus of optimism 

[CamiloRP]

6 hours ago, Ewan McGregor said:

Because they serve their people.  Dany is dedicated to serving her people, even with the potential collateral casualties.  The Boltons saved the North from the Starks folly.  Were it not for them the North would be leaderless.  They were coerced into a war, but they managed to save whatever they could and return tot he North to give it stable rule.

 

7 hours ago, Ewan McGregor said:

Ah, more unbiased Dany Stark hatred.  You just can't accept that she's the destined ruler.

 

Seriously dude... come on. The Boltons don't serve anyone but the Boltons. They just wanted a throne, and caused many northerner deaths... just... come on.

[CamiloRP]

6 hours ago, Ewan McGregor said:

Robb threatened his vassals at sword point to march with him on his revenge quest. 

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[Lilac & Gooseberries]

7 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

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He may mean this one.

Quote

 

 "And when we are done with the Lannisters," he promised, scratching Grey Wind behind the ear, "we will march back north, root you out of your keep, and hang you for an oathbreaker." Cursing, the Greatjon flung a flagon of ale into the fire and bellowed that Robb was so green he must piss grass. When Hallis Mollen moved to restrain him, he knocked him to the floor, kicked over a table, and unsheathed the biggest, ugliest greatsword that Bran had ever seen. All along the benches, his sons and brothers and sworn swords leapt to their feet, grabbing for their steel.

Yet Robb only said a quiet word, and in a snarl and the blink of an eye Lord Umber was on his back, his sword spinning on the floor three feet away and his hand dripping blood where Grey Wind had bitten off two fingers. "My lord father taught me that it was death to bare steel against your liege lord," Robb said, "but doubtless you only meant to cut my meat." Bran's bowels went to water as the Greatjon struggled to rise, sucking at the red stumps of fingers … but then, astonishingly, the huge man laughed. "Your meat," he roared, "is bloody tough."

And somehow after that the Greatjon became Robb's right hand, his staunchest champion, loudly telling all and sundry that the boy lord was a Stark after all, and they'd damn well better bend their knees if they didn't fancy having them chewed off.

 

Forgetting that Lord Umber was testing Robb to see if he measures up to his expectations.

[TheLastWolf]

24 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

He may mean this one.

Forgetting that Lord Umber was testing Robb to see if he measures up to his expectations.

Prefix - Conveniently 

FTFY

[Ewan McGregor]

1 hour ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Forgetting that Lord Umber was testing Robb to see if he measures up to his expectations.

It doesn't matter why Umber was doing it.  One of Robb's bannermen didn't want to go South with him, refusing to partake in his wild revenge quest.  So Robb threatened him and then had his wolf mutilate him.  How would any of the other bannerman dared refuse him then.  The only solutions then were either trying to hold as much back like Barbrey or deal with Robb by guile, like Roose.

[SeanF]

11 minutes ago, Ewan McGregor said:

It doesn't matter why Umber was doing it.  One of Robb's bannermen didn't want to go South with him, refusing to partake in his wild revenge quest.  So Robb threatened him and then had his wolf mutilate him.  How would any of the other bannerman dared refuse him then.  The only solutions then were either trying to hold as much back like Barbrey or deal with Robb by guile, like Roose.

Drawing one’s sword on one’s liege Lord could have been treated as a capital offence.  Robb was restrained, in the circumstances.

And fealty is not negotiable.  Once a vassal holds land from an overlord, marching to war, if the overlord calls his banners, is a requirement, not an option.  

If a vassal strongly objects to war, the proper course is to openly renounce allegiance, and to surrender his lands back to the overlord (eg Enguerrand de Coucy surrendering the Earldom of Bedford, when England restarted hostilities with France)..

[Alyn Oakenfist]

30 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Drawing one’s sword on one’s liege Lord could have been treated as a capital offence.  Robb was restrained, in the circumstances.

Who cares about stuff like that. Minor inconveniences. Kinda like the fact that Janos was in open mutiny and any self respecting commander would have executed him for that.

[SerDuncan]

Seems like a war has been waged and raged and died down. 

Dany ruled and had her moments yet left on Drogon leaving Slavers' Bay no better than it was before her arrival 

Jon didn't rule on her scale. The problems he faced were more in number and acute than her's and he didn't have her luxury of time and resources and living standards for himself and subordinates. 

And he had no alternatives like she did. If he abandoned the ship, the Realm would be overrun by the Others. But if Dany abandoned Meereen and chose any of her many suitors like Quentyn, fAegon etc (she'd meet them inevitably if she departed from Meereen with Xaro's galleys), she could claim her 'birthright' and remove the Slavers after coming to power with a whole continent as her army plus more experienced bigger dragons. 

So near impossible to compare. But I'd say Jon has/had the edge while she was petty, snobby, close minded to uncomfortable truths and idealistic at times like Sansa. Plus no choice vs choices

[Ewan McGregor]

34 minutes ago, Thor Stark said:

Dany ruled and had her moments yet left on Drogon leaving Slavers' Bay no better than it was before her arrival 

Jon didn't rule on her scale. The problems he faced were more in number and acute than her's and he didn't have her luxury of time and resources and living standards for himself and subordinates. 

Dany faced far more numerous problems.  The difference was that she faced them with her intelligence and strength.  She left Meereen in good hands, far better than she found it.  Jon on the other hand destroyed the Watch through his treachery and his abandonment of his duty.  Even with Bowen's intervention in putting him down the Watch might still fall due to his actions.

[Ewan McGregor]

3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Kinda like the fact that Janos was in open mutiny and any self respecting commander would have executed him for that.

Janos was not in open mutiny.  He accepted the illegitimate results of the elections, which is more than can be asked of him.  He should have been the Lord Commander, had he not been sabotaged

[Ewan McGregor]

20 hours ago, TheSamsa said:

You mean after the Boltons conspired to have the norths leader killed, they stepped up and accepted leadership with a heavy heart?

There was no other way.  Robb was going to kill them all in his idiotic ambitious quest.  Roose did what needed to be done with him.  By guile if necesary

[SerDuncan]

3 hours ago, Ewan McGregor said:

Dany faced far more numerous problems. The difference was that she faced them with her intelligence and strength. She left Meereen in good hands, far better than she found it. Jon on the other hand destroyed the Watch through his treachery and his abandonment of his duty. Even with Bowen's intervention in putting him down the Watch might still fall due to his actions.

I've enumerated everything that needs to be said as a reply to this quote on the post which you quoted but you either didn't read completely or choose to ignore for your personal likes and dislikes. So I cannot continue with this conversation with you until you are a bit more rational. Good day to you