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Why Daenerys is a better ruler and leader than Jon

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1 minute ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Might not be true but we haven't seen a Targaryen heiress and Viserys was crowned by his mother who was merely the wife of the King with no power and no support  from the people or the Faith, similar to how Essie declared Gaemon the King and at least Gaemon had some followers. In Viserys' case he had only Willem Darry and not even one of the Kingsguards, they seemed to have someone more important to guard than the King's second son. upon Rhaegar's death

The KIng's second son was named his heir after Rhaegar's death.  Whether or not the 3 Kingsguard at the TOJ knew that is not known.  Not to mention the fact that those kingsguard don't get to decide who is king anyway.

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35 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

The KIng's second son was named his heir after Rhaegar's death.  Whether or not the 3 Kingsguard at the TOJ knew that is not known.  Not to mention the fact that those kingsguard don't get to decide who is king anyway.

I would agree that they might not know if we didn't have their scene at the Tower of Joy. Aerys did named Viserys his heir but he didn't made it official and even then that doesn't always mean much, Westerosi history is full of examples that the designated heir is not always the winner at the end. Let's just say that the Targaryen won and Aerys, Aegon, Rhaenys and Rhaegar were dead but Viserys and a newborn son of Rhaegar were alive. Who do you think that the people would have preferred? Rhaegar's son, which would had been the way it should had been, who had 3 Kingsguards or Mad King's second son who had Darry? To the best of my knowledge the firstborn son is followed by his sons and maybe even daughters, after them come his brothers and sisters.

Edited by Lilac & Gooseberries

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1 hour ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

I would agree that they might not know if we didn't have their scene at the Tower of Joy. Aerys did named Viserys his heir but he didn't made it official and even then that doesn't always mean much, Westerosi history is full of examples that the designated heir is not always the winner at the end. Let's just say that the Targaryen won and Aerys, Aegon, Rhaenys and Rhaegar were dead but Viserys and a newborn son of Rhaegar were alive. Who do you think that the people would have preferred? Rhaegar's son, which would had been the way it should had been, who had 3 Kingsguards or Mad King's second son who had Darry? To the best of my knowledge the firstborn son is followed by his sons and maybe even daughters, after them come his brothers and sisters.

 

1 hour ago, El Guapo said:

The KIng's second son was named his heir after Rhaegar's death.  Whether or not the 3 Kingsguard at the TOJ knew that is not known.  Not to mention the fact that those kingsguard don't get to decide who is king anyway.

Rhaegar and Elia were married. Even if R+L=J is true, Jon is still a targ bastard.

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30 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

If he was a bastard then  the 3 Kingsguard would had been with Viserys not with Lyanna.

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members? 

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else." 

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27 minutes ago, Watery Wal said:

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members? 

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else." 

I know that. However they have to serve the King, they are the Kingsguard. They wouldn't abandon their king alone to protect Rhaegar's bastard. If Viserys had some of the Kingsguard with him then they would had been able to break their oaths. 

Quote

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

 

Edited by Lilac & Gooseberries

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31 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

I know that. However they have to serve the King, they are the Kingsguard. They wouldn't abandon their king alone to protect Rhaegar's bastard. If Viserys had some of the Kingsguard with him then they would had been able to break their oaths. 

 

if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."
They’re Rhaegar loyalists and swore a vow to Rhaegar. Rhaegar ordered the Kingsguard to protect his prophecy baby. Of course they wouldn’t abandon his order.

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1 minute ago, Watery Wal said:

if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."
They’re Rhaegar loyalists and swore a vow to Rhaegar. Rhaegar ordered the Kingsguard to protect his prophecy baby. Of course they wouldn’t abandon his order.

I don't agree. They swore a vow to protect the King, the King would had been their priority and Viserys was with no Kingsguard.

Quote

You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.

We already know that when it is the King's will against the royal family the King comes first.

Quote

"You're hurting me," they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. "You're hurting me." In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted's screaming. "We are sworn to protect her as well," Jaime had finally been driven to say. "We are," Darry allowed, "but not from him."

 

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When people get into discussing Jon's heritage, and also consider him being legitimate or illegitimate, I always wonder how near everyone ignores this:

What character development would Jon receive from being Rhaegar's bastard, not Ned's? That's the point of him. That he's not a bastard.

Being Rhaegar's bastard might give him right to ride a dragon, but that's not what he always desired. Instead, he always dreamt of being legitimate. He might also be legitimized as a Targaryen afterwards, but who would do such a thing?

And don't come to me with the "He will ignore it, because he's a Stark, or something", because  blood does not turn into water, never will. And he knows this.

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17 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

I don't agree. They swore a vow to protect the King, the King would had been their priority and Viserys was with no Kingsguard.

We already know that when it is the King's will against the royal family the King comes first.

 

Grrm himself said that the Kingsguard protect Jon because they are following Rhaegar’s order in that interview. 

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15 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

When people get into discussing Jon's heritage, and also consider him being legitimate or illegitimate, I always wonder how near everyone ignores this:

What character development would Jon receive from being Rhaegar's bastard, not Ned's? That's the point of him. That he's not a bastard.

Being Rhaegar's bastard might give him right to ride a dragon, but that's not what he always desired. Instead, he always dreamt of being legitimate. He might also be legitimized as a Targaryen afterwards, but who would do such a thing?

And don't come to me with the "He will ignore it, because he's a Stark, or something", because  blood does not turn into water, never will. And he knows this.

Yes, yes, yes. People keep ignoring that R+L=J needs to mean something unlike in the abomination. And I don't think it'll just be for the purposes of dragon riding, Nettles did that too. It's Checkov's parentage.

This btw, is why I think he'll be King and not Bran, otherwise R+L=J would be pointless.

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20 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Yes, yes, yes. People keep ignoring that R+L=J needs to mean something unlike in the abomination

It has to mean something, yes. What would it mean for him to be a bastard of Ned, of Rhaegar or of anyone on this planet? Nothing, literally nothing. This is all for him leaving back his bastard being. Remember that he swore for himself that he'll never father any bastards. He hates being a bastard, and that's what his disputed heritage would help him leaving back.

 

26 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

This btw, is why I think he'll be King and not Bran, otherwise R+L=J would be pointless.

I doubt a greenseer would be king after all. I rather see him joining the secret society of greenseers. That's what fits zo him, not being a king. I also don't see the point of electing a Stark Lord of the 7K until there are Targaryens or Baratheons lurking. 

And yes, King Bran would also make RLJ pointless.

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11 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Do you really believe that? Do you really believe that she is Azor Ahai and she has God's mandate to Westeros?

I do. Who else could be?

She's the rightful ruler of Westeros

She is the last of the greatest line of Kings

Her dragons are both a tool to fight the long night as well as a sign to her true calling

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8 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

And feudalism!? How the hell can she be a monarch and seat her pretty arse on the IT if she's against feudalism? Pfft, stop joking 

She will be the one to stop the cycle of war and vengeance.  She will deal with both the scheming lions and the vengeful wolves.  Those who do not accept to be part of her better word will be eliminated.

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6 minutes ago, Ewan McGregor said:

She's the rightful ruler of Westeros

She's definitely not. At worst she's second in line, at worst she's 4th. Jon comes before her regardless, Aegon too probably, as does Stannis.

7 minutes ago, Ewan McGregor said:

She is the last of the greatest line of Kings

Again, are you forgetting Jon and Aegon?

7 minutes ago, Ewan McGregor said:

Her dragons are both a tool to fight the long night as well as a sign to her true calling

Hazzea would like a word with you.

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Just now, Alyn Oakenfist said:

She's definitely not. At worst she's second in line, at worst she's 4th. Jon comes before her regardless, Aegon too probably, as does Stannis.

Both Jon and Aegon are mummers dragons, while Stannis is just as much of an Usurper as his brother.

2 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:
12 minutes ago, Ewan McGregor said:

Her dragons are both a tool to fight the long night as well as a sign to her true calling

Hazzea would like a word with you.

Hazzea was a sacrifice for the greater good.  Dany made a mistake chaining up her dragons.  Her intelligence and charm are phenomenal and she could rule with just those, but she needs the dragons to fulfill her destiny.

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23 minutes ago, Ewan McGregor said:

Hazzea was a sacrifice for the greater good.  Dany made a mistake chaining up her dragons.  Her intelligence and charm are phenomenal and she could rule with just those, but she needs the dragons to fulfill her destiny.

ThE gReAtEr GoOd

Seriously thought, some of the worst acts in history were committed as part of "the greater good"

Edited by Alyn Oakenfist

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4 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:
6 minutes ago, Ewan McGregor said:

Hazzea was a sacrifice for the greater good.  Dany made a mistake chaining up her dragons.  Her intelligence and charm are phenomenal and she could rule with just those, but she needs the dragons to fulfill her destiny.

ThE gReAtEr GoOd

Dany's fight is for the greater good.  Her story in Meereen is about learning to use her incredible skills to fight for the greater good and do whatever it takes.  Her betrayls showed her why compromising is a bad idea and why she needs to make the hard sacrifices.  Jon fails in that department, he chooses his sister over his duty, that is why he's dead.

Please stop mindlessly responding just so you can show you hatred for a character.  Go get a life, or buy one if you must

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31 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

She's definitely not. At worst she's second in line, at worst she's 4th. Jon comes before her regardless, Aegon too probably, as does Stannis.

Again, are you forgetting Jon and Aegon?

Hazzea would like a word with you.

It doesn’t matter, house Targaryen had overthrown by Baratheon. Stannis is the rightful heir of the iron throne. However, if Dany and Aegon can win the throne by conquest, yes, they will be the rightful queen/king of Westeros. 

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3 minutes ago, Watery Wal said:

It doesn’t matter, house Targaryen had overthrown by Baratheon. Stannis is the rightful heir of the iron throne. However, if Dany and Aegon can win the throne by conquest, yes, they will be the rightful queen/king of Westeros. 

Fair enough. The point is however, that however way you take it, Dany is not currently the rightful monarch. That is either Tommen, Stannis, Jon or Aegon depending on how you define the rightful monarch.

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