Elbert Arryn's marriage

[Malgoth]

I find it strange that Jon Arryn took care about everyone's marriages, except his own heir Elbert, who was at least in his 20(s), but likely in his 30(s). Robert was supposed to get married to Lyanna, just like Brandon to Catelyn, which would have tied North, Strormlands and Riverlands together. But what about the Vale?

I originally thought that Jon planned to marry off Elbert to Lysa Tully, when she would had got little older, but then I saw discussions in :

 

 

Where general consensus that Hoster Tully and Tywin Lannister planed marry Jaime and Lysa, before Jaime was taken into the Kingsguard by Aerys.

If there hasn't been Robert's Rebellion, highest titled bride would have been Cersei Lannister, but I don't think that Elbert is a better "match" then Rhaegar Tywin was talking about. There was also Ashara Dayne, but, although she is a beautiful and all, and Daynes are ancient house, I don't think that Jon would ever considered that for Arryns.

So, what Jon Arryn planned in regards to his heir Elbert, what do you think?

 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

I think Cersei was definitely one of the options, put forth after Aerys (idiotically) refused Tywin. Before then Elia was probably the main option, as the Dornish only became loyalists after she married Rhaegar.

Lysa clearly became an option after Jaime became a KG, and Jon was probably finishing the deal when the BBQ happened.

I'd guess Jon tried one of Mace's sisters, but Olenna probably blocked that, not only wanting to solidify the Reach but also keep out of an anti Targaryen conspiracy that might just have them all burned.

And those are pretty much all the Lord Paramount daughters/sisters available sometime before the Rebellion.

Out of the secondary houses, anything Dornish would be a waste of time, maybe except the Yronwoods, but even then it would not be worth it, when compared to all the other options.

In the Reach everybody would be tied by blood tot he Tyrells except the Rowans, Tarlys and Florents. The Rowans were Targ loyalists, while the Tarlys would not be worth it given their positioning. The Florents on the other hand would definitely be worth it, as not only would they bring the Tarlys and quite a lot of Hightower vassals along, but they would make the Tyrells veeeery weary about siding with Aerys, when the threat of replacement is so obvious,

The Westerlands have no strong or ambitious vassals, Tywin saw to that, while the Stormlands have no strong vassals worthy of the name.

In the Riverlands choosing a Blackwood or Braken would just push the other towards Aerys, better to leave them in peace in the hope of both siding with Hoster. The Freys are a no go due to reputation and pedigree for an heir to the Vale. So no Riverlands either.

In the North the Manderlys could actually work quite well for the long term, but given their loyalty for the Starks it's superfluous in the short anti Aerys term. Nothing to gain there.

So all in all the options/candidates were:

- Elia (before her marriage)

- Cersei (after Elia's marriage)

- Lysa (after Jaime joined the KG)

- One of the Florents

[CamiloRP]

Him probably living in WInterfell makes me think Jon and Rickard planned to engage him to Lyanna, but since JA used to give in to Robert's every request, he changed his plans, and maybe thought it a better way to reinforce the alliance. 

[Loose Bolt]

Why there was no bride from Vale for Elbert?

After all securing his own power base would have been more useful to him than any marriage with someone outside of Vale. Or I assume that his own support and resources were very limited and so gaining support from some major Vale house would have helped him securing his position as a next overlord of Vale if he somehow outlived Jon Arryn and JA had died without having a son.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

35 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

Why there was no bride from Vale for Elbert?

After all securing his own power base would have been more useful to him than any marriage with someone outside of Vale. Or I assume that his own support and resources were very limited and so gaining support from some major Vale house would have helped him securing his position as a next overlord of Vale if he somehow outlived Jon Arryn and JA had died without having a son.

Well this ties in tot he theory that there was a massive anti Targ or at least anti Aerys conspiracy. In that case getting support for their faction was more important then stabilizing the Vale.

[frenin]

11 hours ago, Malgoth said:

I find it strange that Jon Arryn took care about everyone's marriages,

He took care of no one's tho.

Robert married out of love, him loving Lyanna was not planned, he could just as well loved Cersei or Lysa or whatever woman. 

Brandon and Cat had nothing to do with him either.

More likely than not, given it's not likely that they were planning a conspiracy, if so they were very bad at it, there was no rush to betroth Elbert, just as there's no rush about doing it with Edmure. If it happens, it happens.

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Him probably living in WInterfell makes me think Jon and Rickard planned to engage him to Lyanna, but since JA used to give in to Robert's every request, he changed his plans, and maybe thought it a better way to reinforce the alliance. 

Elbert lived in Winterfell??

[CamiloRP]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

He took care of no one's tho.

Robert married out of love, him loving Lyanna was not planned, he could just as well loved Cersei or Lysa or whatever woman. 

Brandon and Cat had nothing to do with him either.

More likely than not, given it's not likely that they were planning a conspiracy, if so they were very bad at it, there was no rush to betroth Elbert, just as there's no rush about doing it with Edmure. If it happens, it happens.

Elbert lived in Winterfell??

I miswrote. I think he did did. He was traveling south with Brandon to KL. I think he was warded in WInterfell in return for Ned being warded in the Vale.

(There's no hard evidence for this, just an idea).

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Robert married out of love, him loving Lyanna was not planned, he could just as well loved Cersei or Lysa or whatever woman.

Robert most certainly didn't marry out of love, because he married Cersei.

Also I think love had nothing to do with it. Robert was crucial to Jon and gang's plans, and with Catelyn being betrothed to Brandon and Lysa to Jaime, there was only one option left for Robert

Also I doubt it was love, more obsession on Robert's part, and we honestly have no idea what it was on Lyanna's part, but odds are it wasn't even affection.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

I miswrote. I think he did did. He was traveling south with Brandon to KL. I think he was warded in WInterfell in return for Ned being warded in the Vale.

He wasn't travelling south the Neck tho. He was already in the Riverlands with Brandon and the rest of the fellas and they were heading north to meet Rickard's party, still in the Riverlands.

 

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Robert most certainly didn't marry out of love, because he married Cersei.

Betrothed.

 

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Also I think love had nothing to do with it.

It certainly had something to do with it, otherwise Robert would not have asked for the betrothal.

 

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Robert was crucial to Jon and gang's plans,

What plans?? The southron ambitions bit is perhaps the laziest and at the same time most convoluted fanfic ever.

If they had a plan it was a very dumb one, it made little sense not trying to secure the support of their own vassals (especially Hoster's), which came to bite them in the ass during the Robellion, it made little sense to have Stannis, Benjen, Renly, Ned and Elbert unmarried or without a formal betrothal, it made little sense to marry  Lysa to the Lannisters when Tywin was openly trying to marry Cersei to the Targs, ; etc etc etc.

It's a giant ad hoc plot whose only support are the betrothals between the Great Houses, which wasn't weird or unheard of, and the fact that somehow Jon Arryn and his pupils did in fact overthrow the Targs.

 

 

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

and with Catelyn being betrothed to Brandon and Lysa to Jaime, there was only one option left for Robert

The one Robert chose. Robert was 17-19 at the time, an adult by their standards and Lord of Storm's End. He would be the one choosing his bride, not anyone else.

And for what we're told, Robert became infatuated with Lyanna, then used Ned as a go between and Rickard accepted the betrothal. sounds completely  random.

[Lord of Oldstones]

 He was probably very picky. And why not? Heir to the Vale will have lots of offers at hand.

With safety of mountains the Arryns don't need to marry outside. They're not in position of Tullys being overshadowed by their bannerman and lying in middle nor do they have superiority complex like the Lannisters.

Marriage with their bannermen will be better than a match with far away great houses be it secondary ones like Florents,Blackwood,Freys or with much greater Hightower,Tyrell or Redwyne.

The Graftons sided with Targs and if they were under greater influence of Iron Throne just like Mootons & Darrys from RL, a marriage with Graftons to curb influence of Iron Throne would be best. If not there are always the mighty Royces. Marrying a Sunderland would help keeping the sistermen loyal. And let's not forget those 8 Waynwood-Arryn girls.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

On 1/3/2021 at 2:28 AM, Malgoth said:

So, what Jon Arryn planned in regards to his heir Elbert, what do you think?

I don't think he had any plans for Elbert.

The guy didn't seem to be betrothed. He wasn't named the Keeper of the Gates of the Moon or the Knight of the Gate as far as we know. Jon Arryn didn't go to KL to ransom his nephew back and he didn't even call his banners when he was killed by Aerys. 

Either there's something off here with the writing, or Jon Arryn didn't give a fig about his nephew and heir. 

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Jon Arryn didn't go to KL to ransom his nephew back and he didn't even call his banners when he was killed by Aerys. 

Either there's something off here with the writing, or Jon Arryn didn't give a fig about his nephew and heir. 

I find it more likely that the Eyrie party simply were not very well informed about the situation until Aerys demands appeared

[Malgoth]

21 hours ago, frenin said:

If they had a plan it was a very dumb one, it made little sense not trying to secure the support of their own vassals (especially Hoster's), which came to bite them in the ass during the Robellion, it made little sense to have Stannis, Benjen, Renly, Ned and Elbert unmarried or without a formal betrothal, it made little sense to marry  Lysa to the Lannisters when Tywin was openly trying to marry Cersei to the Targs, ; etc etc etc.

I agree that Southron Ambitions theory is kinda shaky, but on other hand second/third sons don't really have much of the prospects in the terms of marriage. At best they would marry some daughter of vassal lord and at worst will go to the night watch.  Even Stannis, brother to the king Robert and a lord himself, married just a niece of Lord Alester Florent. 

P.S. For the same reason, if Robert's Rebellion never happened, there is no real possibility for marriage Ned and Ashara, not to mention there was no chemistry  alchemy there. So, take this NedxAshara fanfiction fans.

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Either there's something off here with the writing, or Jon Arryn didn't give a fig about his nephew and heir. 

Maybe it's like what happened with the main line of the house Wettin recently : head of the house, Michael, hated his cousin's banker son so much, the only young heir,  that he disinherited him and then, allegedly, set up very suspicious horse riding accident. So now main line surely will die out.

 

[frenin]

30 minutes ago, Malgoth said:

but on other hand second/third sons don't really have much of the prospects in the terms of marriage.

They do when it comes to Great Houses, hell even the Freys still land the jackpot in the 40th grandon...  There are plenty of powerful houses eager to marry into the Starks or Baratheons.

 

31 minutes ago, Malgoth said:

At best they would marry some daughter of vassal lord and at worst will go to the night watch. 

The Frey may want to have a word with you.

 

 

32 minutes ago, Malgoth said:

Even Stannis, brother to the king Robert and a lord himself, married just a niece of Lord Alester Florent. 

Which is a pretty good match...

[SFDanny]

On 1/3/2021 at 5:52 AM, CamiloRP said:

Him probably living in WInterfell makes me think Jon and Rickard planned to engage him to Lyanna, but since JA used to give in to Robert's every request, he changed his plans, and maybe thought it a better way to reinforce the alliance. 

 

On 1/3/2021 at 1:36 PM, CamiloRP said:

I miswrote. I think he did did. He was traveling south with Brandon to KL. I think he was warded in WInterfell in return for Ned being warded in the Vale.

(There's no hard evidence for this, just an idea).

I've put forward the idea the make up of Brandon's party that goes with him to the Red Keep suggests there is some kind of special friendship or relationship between Brandon and his companions. Long ago, Stefan Stasse (from the Tower of the Hand and Boiled Leather audio) suggested that this could be an indication of foster brothers on the part of at least some of them, most especially between Elbert and Brandon. But we know now with the publication of A Dance with Dragons that Brandon himself was fostered with the Dustins of Barrowton. It makes sense given that one of the Dustins was a great hero of the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Like the Stark heir, Elbert would have benefited from that experience learned from a foster father. So, if the theory is right, and I think it is, they would have been fostered together in Barrowton. Which would mean that Elbert and Brandon were both together in Barrowton, not that Elbert was fostered at Winterfell. This would also fit with the possible fostering of Karl Royce together with Elbert, and Jeffory Mallister from Seaguard.

You're right we have little hard evidence that shows this is the case, but it makes sense. There is very likely a good reason these men were with Brandon before his wedding, and that they were willing to follow his lead in riding to King's Landing and demanding a duel with Rhaegar.

On 1/2/2021 at 11:28 PM, Malgoth said:

So, what Jon Arryn planned in regards to his heir Elbert, what do you think?

I do think it likely that part of the alliance plans would include a marriage between Elbert and Cersei. As the heir to the the Vale he is the most eligible of the available sons not already betrothed. If not him, then either Ned or Stannis. Of course, Stannis marriage to Salyse may have already have been decided when the rebellion starts. That would make it either Elbert or Ned as the son to cement House Lannister's ties to the alliance.

If we only look at Elbert without the context of Lord Rickard's "southron ambitions" and the betrothals associated with them, then it would make sense for Elbert to marry a woman from House Arryn's bannermen. Of interest here is the unusual betrothal of one of the Arryn women to House Bracken in the Riverlands. The one taken by the clansmen of the Mountains of the Moon.