If Aegon is legit, why didn't Varys try and save Rhaenys?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

So I've been thinking of writing one big thread about all the reasons Aegon is probably legit. One thing that doesn't seem to make sense however is the question of Rhaenys. If Varys saved Aegon, then why not his sister? Particularly given that the switch must have happened with Elia's consent, so why would she agree to sacrifice one of her children when there was a way out. And don't give me coloring as a reason, if Varys could find a Valyrian looking boy he could find some girl that looked like Rhaenys, especially given that though we don't know exactly what her coloring was, it's heavily implied it was Dornish. How hard would it be to find a Dornish girl? So, if Varys is telling the truth, why didn't he save both the children?

Also keep in mind this question is going to be asked by people in the story too, particularly the Martells.

[broken one]

Maybe he had no time to save both. And a prince is 3 times more important than a princes in this man's man's world.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

3 minutes ago, broken one said:

Maybe he had no time to save both. And a prince is 3 times more important than a princes in this man's man's world.

I mean given the distance between the Trident and KL he had plenty of time. I do agree that Aegon was more important, obviously, he's the heir, but I don't think time was the issue

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I don't think it was about sacrificing Rhaenys. 

1. Rhaenys was recognizable. Even with all her stab wounds, Ned still recognized her as did Kevan Lannister.

2. I think the question that should be asked is why wasn't Rhaenys with her mother and brother in the nursery? Instead, 2-3 year old little girl is alone in her father's chambers, one floor above the nursery. 

I don't have children, but if my home was under assault and I had no hope of escaping, I know that I would want to have my children with me. I don't think that it would be any different for Elia. 

I think the simplest answer is that Rhaenys was taken from the nursery (she must have been asleep there at some point since she was still in her pjs when she was killed) to Rhaegar's rooms to remind whoever found her of who she was.

Rhaenys would have been a valuable hostage. Sure, there are plots that could have been hatched around her, but Robert would have held her, and she might have been used to consolidate his throne by marrying her off to his son and heir. If a Crakehall or a Westerling or anyone who was not Amory Lorch or Gregor Clegane had found Rhaenys first, I'm sure we would have had a very different outcome for her. 

Varys saved Gendry but left Barra behind because he did not think her life was in danger from Cersei because she was a girl her mother was a prostitute. She held no value for Cersei, but Cersei still had her killed. Rhaenys is the opposite of that, but Tywin had her killed anyway. 

Varys seems to have had a soft spot for Rhaenys the one time he spoke about her. I cannot imagine that he did not think of Rhaenys when he found out that Barra had been killed. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

2. I think the question that should be asked is why wasn't Rhaenys with her mother and brother in the nursery? Instead, 2-3 year old little girl is alone in her father's chambers, one floor above the nursery. 

I don't have children, but if my home was under assault and I had no hope of escaping, I know that I would want to have my children with me. I don't think that it would be any different for Elia. 

I think the simplest answer is that Rhaenys was taken from the nursery (she must have been asleep there at some point since she was still in her pjs when she was killed) to Rhaegar's rooms to remind whoever found her of who she was.

Also maybe Elia was with the not Aegon, probably sacrificing herself so that everyone would believe him to be legit, and so that Rhaenys would hopefully remain unnoticed?

3 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Rhaenys would have been a valuable hostage. Sure, there are plots that could have been hatched around her, but Robert would have held her, and she might have been used to consolidate his throne by marrying her off to his son and heir. If a Crakehall or a Westerling or anyone who was not Amory Lorch or Gregor Clegane had found Rhaenys first, I'm sure we would have had a very different outcome for her. 

Varys saved Gendry but left Barra behind because he did not think her life was in danger from Cersei because she was a girl her mother was a prostitute. She held no value for Cersei, but Cersei still had her killed. Rhaenys is the opposite of that, but Tywin had her killed anyway. 

Varys seems to have had a soft spot for Rhaenys the one time he spoke about her. I cannot imagine that he did not think of Rhaenys when he found out that Barra had been killed. 

So basically, Varys expected Tywin/Robert to be smart enough to realize she was more valuable alive then dead. Fair point. Add it in to the many fuck ups on Tywin's behalf in his arrogance, bloodlust and ruthlessness.

Also about what you said, one could make the case that there's an intentional parallel there between Tywin and Cersei, showing just how much they are alike.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

25 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Also maybe Elia was with the not Aegon, probably sacrificing herself so that everyone would believe him to be legit, and so that Rhaenys would hopefully remain unnoticed?

Elia's face was also bashed in according to Gregor. Just sayin'.

I think Rhaenys was taken out of the nursery as a way to spare her life. It's like Elia didn't even try to go and take her son elsewhere in the castle. If you're looking for a royal baby, the first place you would go looking is the nursery.

[Lord Lannister]

Cause girls don't matter beyond screwing in Westeros.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

3 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Cause girls don't matter beyond screwing in Westeros.

I mean even for that, an alive Rhaenys buys off a whole Kingdom, maybe more if they somehow get a betrothal with Edmure or Robb

[Lord Varys]

Aegon would have been hidden because people feared for his life the rebels came to KL. But they wouldn't have feared for Rhaenys' or Elia's life to the same degree because Robert could marry his heir to Rhaenys to solidify his claim and use Elia as hostage against Dorne.

Also, Rhaenys was older, more easily recognizable and if Aegon was not only protected from the rebels but also from the Mad King then chances are very low that anyone thought they could pull it off to replace Rhaenys with a different girl.

[Daeron the Daring]

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So I've been thinking of writing one big thread about all the reasons Aegon is probably legit. One thing that doesn't seem to make sense however is the question of Rhaenys. If Varys saved Aegon, then why not his sister? Particularly given that the switch must have happened with Elia's consent, so why would she agree to sacrifice one of her children when there was a way out. And don't give me coloring as a reason, if Varys could find a Valyrian looking boy he could find some girl that looked like Rhaenys, especially given that though we don't know exactly what her coloring was, it's heavily implied it was Dornish. How hard would it be to find a Dornish girl? So, if Varys is telling the truth, why didn't he save both the children?

Also keep in mind this question is going to be asked by people in the story too, particularly the Martells.

Might be wrong, but maybe Varys tought that Rhaenys is not in danger. Not only for being a valuable hostage, but also only a female claimant.

Female claimants aren't that preferred, maybe neither Elia saw the danger in not letting her go.

I bet if Robert gets them both alive, he probably would've killed Aegon somehow. Maybe making it an accident or anything, doesn't even matter. For him, a boy like Aegon is too big of a risk. Rhaenys? Not so much, once he has a male successor getting married to the late Crown Prince's daughter.

Elia might have taught this the same way. 

Or maybe the switch had really been done right before the sack of the city.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

Just now, HerblYY said:

Might be wrong, but maybe Varys tought that Rhaenys is not in danger. Not only for being a valuable hostage, but also only a female claimant.

Female claimants aren't that preferred, maybe neither Elia saw the danger in not letting her go.

I bet if Robert gets them both alive, he probably would've killed Aegon somehow. Maybe making it an accident or anything, doesn't even matter. For him, a boy like Aegon is too big of a risk. Rhaenys? Not so much, once he has a male successor getting married to the late Crown Prince's daughter.

Elia might have taught this the same way. 

Yeah, @Alexis-something-Rose made the same point, and I guess it's valid. If the person in charge wasn't a blood thirsty criminal out to prove... something; then Rhaenys would have been spared and be prime marriage material for the new Crown Prince.

BUT!!!

Even if that's the case, that would make her not only a valuable hostage, but a great way for Robert to secure his legitimacy. Giving away such a valuable piece is still stupid, whether he though she would be a ward or killed.

[Crona]

Well, we aren't given the full details about the switch, so this would all be speculation. However, there could be multiple reasons Aegon was saved rather than Rhaenys. 

 

Rhaenys was not the heir and was more beneficial as a hostage (Viserys still had escaped to Dragonstone) as@Alexis-something-Rose highlighted. Jaime expresses guilt for the children's murders as he says he didn't expect the children to be murdered. Ned got into a big fight with Robert because he considered it murder.  It was very unexpected as the children were considered innocent in the matter, especially for Rhaenys. 

 

Another reason could be the child switch happened very close to the sack and there weren't any dornish children that could replace Rhaenys but she did have a wet nurse's child that was switched with Aegon. I believe in this scenario, Lemore's child would be the pisswater prince which is the reason she has stretch marks. The reason Elia was holding him is because she did not want the person entering the room to see Aegon. 

 

But really it's all speculation, I didn't buy the switch story either and I don't think Varys was being entirely honest. But as Tyrion states, the best lies are the ones speckled with a little bit of truth. I came to the conclusion that Varys did the switch because of his speeches and dialogue regarding Rhaenys & Aegon and how his voice changes. I would like to post a full thread about Varys's dialogues but work and family often makes the progress on this difficult. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

9 minutes ago, Crona said:

Well, we aren't given the full details about the switch, so this would all be speculation. However, there could be multiple reasons Aegon was saved rather than Rhaenys. 

 

Rhaenys was not the heir and was more beneficial as a hostage (Viserys still had escaped to Dragonstone) as@Alexis-something-Rose highlighted. Jaime expresses guilt for the children's murders as he says he didn't expect the children to be murdered. Ned got into a big fight with Robert because he considered it murder.  It was very unexpected as the children were considered innocent in the matter, especially for Rhaenys. 

 

Another reason could be the child switch happened very close to the sack and there weren't any dornish children that could replace Rhaenys but she did have a wet nurse's child that was switched with Aegon. I believe in this scenario, Lemore's child would be the pisswater prince which is the reason she has stretch marks. The reason Elia was holding him is because she did not want the person entering the room to see Aegon. 

All this is presuming it's either or between the two