Why Aegon is a better ruler and leader than Daenerys and Jon combine

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Aldarion said:

It is a possibility. And same as Daenerys: her only experience is ruling a formerly slaver city, and she may well be surrounded by the likes of Jorah (creepy obsessive self-centered fanboy), Daario (narcissist psycho) and Euron (sociopathic psycho). So in the end, if Aegon and Daenerys come to blows, we might have a "conflict of good but misguided people" or a "conflict of tyrants", or anything in-between. And both of them will likely have good intentions, only to be blocked by the people they are surrounded by. Which IMHO would fit Martin's style.

However, I have one problem with that: if Aegon becomes a tyrant (even if only by proxy), Daenerys may well find it very easy to justify "removing" him, especially if she already has doubts about his parentage.

The mob of Kings Landing might be quite happy to see anyone associated with the outgoing regime lynched by fAegon’s supporters, especially if the High Sparrow whips them into a frenzy.  We should think of the murders of Tommen & co. as awful, but the mob might welcome such dark deeds.

Had she been thrown to the mob, during her walk of shame, I don’t doubt Cersei would have been raped and torn to pieces, and I expect that would be the fate of any highborn woman in a similar situation.  Margaery may be more popular with the Smallfolk, but there’s an element of the mob who would love to see similar treatment meted out to her.

[Malgoth]

2 hours ago, Aldarion said:

However, I have one problem with that: if Aegon becomes a tyrant (even if only by proxy), Daenerys may well find it very easy to justify "removing" him, especially if she already has doubts about his parentage.

According to the spoilers from the show, Daenerys, sooner or later, will become a mad tyrant, being true to her heritage. So it's not question about who out two of them will look like a bad guy/girl, but how much in "The Game of Thrones" Aegon's role in the books D&D have joined with Jon's in the show. It's possible that it's Aegon will be banging his aunt and later on will kill her.

 

 

By the way, guys, there is a big chance that in the WOW Gerold Dayne will steal the sword Dawn, flee from the forces of Doran Martell and, later on, join Aegon's side, possible his new kingsguard, in the sense a parody on Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning.

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, Malgoth said:

According to the spoilers from the show, Daenerys, sooner or later, will become a mad tyrant, being true to her heritage. So it's not question about who out two of them will look like a bad guy/girl, but how much in "The Game of Thrones" Aegon's role in the books D&D have joined with Jon's in the show. It's possible that it's Aegon will be banging his aunt and later on will kill her.

 

 

By the way, guys, there is a big chance that in the WOW Gerold Dayne will steal the sword Dawn, flee from the forces of Doran Martell and, later on, join Aegon's side, possible his new kingsguard, in the sense a parody щт Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning.

I doubt if fAegon will be part of the endgame.

[Malgoth]

16 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I doubt if fAegon will be part of the endgame.

It's depends on what you mean by the endgame. Highly unlikely it all would ended up with Cersei and Golden Company VS Dany, Jon, Arya, Sansa, & Co. More possible, main antagonist will be Others, or Euron, or Bloodraven, or Hot Pie. Aegon can become a casualty or unsuspected winner in this conflict.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

5 minutes ago, Malgoth said:

It's depends on what you mean by the endgame. Highly unlikely it all would ended up with Cersei and Golden Company VS Dany, Jon, Arya, Sansa, & Co. More possible, main antagonist will be Others, or Euron, or Bloodraven, or Hot Pie. Aegon can become a casualty or unsuspected winner of this conflict.

More likely he will became a casualty to Dany.

[Rose of Red Lake]

5 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

So they behaved in accord with typical Wildling courtship?

When in his whole Northern campaign in dealing with Northern hospitality, Ironborn, snow , Boltons and Frey, forming logistics for defense from the Others he would have time to deal with minor issues, which Lord Commander of Night's Watch or even Val herself could had taken care of?

That's not a minor issue since tensions are high between all the parties. Patrek and Axell don't understand free folk courtship and were just looking for prizes.

[Rose of Red Lake]

4 hours ago, Malgoth said:

By the way, guys, there is a big chance that in the WOW Gerold Dayne will steal the sword Dawn, flee from the forces of Doran Martell and, later on, join Aegon's side, possible his new kingsguard, in the sense a parody on Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning.

Or maybe "Of the Night" gets his ears chopped off with the Sword of the Morning?

[Rose of Red Lake]

15 hours ago, SeanF said:

I think the problem lies less with him (or Arianne) and more with those who serve them ( a likely problem for Dany, as well).  I can’t see any Lannister, Baratheon, or Tyrell receiving mercy, if they take Kings Landing.  The deaths of Margaery, Tommen etc. Would be that authorial kick in the balls.

Why not both?

[SeanF]

18 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Why not both?

Certainly, I think Dany could have problems with vengeful followers, not least Tyrion.

[Daeron the Daring]

4 hours ago, Malgoth said:

According to the spoilers from the show, Daenerys, sooner or later, will become a mad tyrant, being true to her heritage. So it's not question about who out two of them will look like a bad guy/girl, but how much in "The Game of Thrones" Aegon's role in the books D&D have joined with Jon's in the show. It's possible that it's Aegon will be banging his aunt and later on will kill her.

According to GRRM himself, the show has nothing to spoiler from the books. It does not influence him, nor he will change anything in the books for the sake of the show.

So, considering that, how on Earth could becoming mad be her heritage? Was it Rhaegar's? We know Viserys was what he was because of the threatment he received while his father still reigned, and the Rebellion's outcome did not help with it at all.

So, do you have any textual evidence of Aerys' mental illness being heritable? It is the opposite of what the matter actually is.

Or, have you seen any little sign of any kind of mental sickness appearing on her? I haven't. If you did, I'd love to see it.

As a reminder, the show, compared to the books, is fanfiction, and isn't supposed to be relied on. At least not on this part of the forum.

 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

10 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

So, do you have any textual evidence of Aerys' mental illness being heritable? It is the opposite of what the matter actually is.

Also keep in mind, Aerys wasn't mad from the start. He was a narcissist and a megalomaniac from the start, both simple personality traits, that with the help of Duskendale, but mostly through his power, slowly took over and corrupted all of him, leaving behind only madness obsessed with the One Ring the Throne.

[Daeron the Daring]

11 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Also keep in mind, Aerys wasn't mad from the start. He was a narcissist and a megalomaniac from the start, both simple personality traits, that with the help of Duskendale, but mostly through his power, slowly took over and corrupted all of him, leaving behind only madness obsessed with the One Ring the Throne.

Not even megalomaniac, just simply dumb. He always wanted to make great, unachievable things, and easily gave up on everything. He wasn't a man capable to rule at all, I'd call him weak-minded. Yet, this was only problem when he started to threat his vassal (Lord Darklyn) ill-judgedly, instead of leaving things for Tywin, as he did before.

[Malgoth]

48 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

According to GRRM himself, the show has nothing to spoiler from the books. It does not influence him, nor he will change anything in the books for the sake of the show.

Oh, come on, of course he would say that. He still has a books to sell. From G. R. R. R. Martin himself we know that he told D&D his endings and some secrets from the books : Bran will become king, how Hodor became a communist  mentally challenged, Dany's tyrannical reign, how Others were created, Euron will start putting fingers in the bums of major characters (figuratively, I hope )... So we know how approximately things will play out.

48 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

So, considering that, how on Earth could becoming mad be her heritage? Was it Rhaegar's? We know Viserys was what he was because of the threatment he received while his father still reigned, and the Rebellion's outcome did not help with it at all.

So, do you have any textual evidence of Aerys' mental illness being heritable? It is the opposite of what the matter actually is.

Or, have you seen any little sign of any kind of mental sickness appearing on her? I haven't. If you did, I'd love to see it.

Aerys was objectively insane,  Aegon V, who burned down his entire family, too. Rhaegar is also qualified to be called mad, or at least he's fabulous idiot who was obsessed with the prophecy of the prince who was promised.

Inbreeding does leave a mark in generation. Usually, in this cases, intelligence is affected the most.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

8 minutes ago, Malgoth said:

how Hodor became a communist  mentally challenged

Coming from a post communist country, which starved for over ten years, and is still suffering the economic hardships from communism, all I can say is: Amen to that!

[Daeron the Daring]

18 minutes ago, Malgoth said:

Oh, come on, of course he would say that. He still has a books to sell. From G. R. R. R. Martin himself we know that he told D&D his endings and some secrets from the books : Bran will become king, how Hodor became a communist  mentally challenged, Dany's tyrannical reign, how Others were created, Euron will start putting fingers in the bums of major characters (figuratively, I hope )... So we know how approximately things will play out.

He told nothing about the great ending. What he told them is who Jon's mother is, how Shireen dies, and (I'm not sure about this) how Hodor's role will play out. These were things that people who did not write the story could not figure out.

Makes no sense to give the ending to anyone. He doesn't even want to make the ending public if he dies before he could finish ADOS.

We know how approximately things will play out, yes, but we're nowhere near to be 100% sure about half of it, or even more.

18 minutes ago, Malgoth said:

Aerys was objectively insane

Yes, he was, after months of torturing.

 

18 minutes ago, Malgoth said:

Aegon V, who burned down his entire family, too.

Alright, then. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/accident

18 minutes ago, Malgoth said:

Rhaegar is also qualified to be called mad, or at least he's fabulous idiot who was obsessed with the prophecy of the prince who was promised.

Alright then.

 

18 minutes ago, Malgoth said:

Inbreeding does leave a mark in generation. 

GRRM's FICTIONAL world would like to have a word with you.

 

18 minutes ago, Malgoth said:

Usually, in this cases, intelligence is effected the most.

Any actual evidence? That is neither how inbreeding works out IRL, nor on Planetos.

[SeanF]

15 minutes ago, Malgoth said:

Oh, come on, of course he would say that. He still has a books to sell. From G. R. R. R. Martin himself we know that he told D&D his endings and some secrets from the books : Bran will become king, how Hodor became a communist  mentally challenged, Dany's tyrannical reign, how Others were created, Euron will start putting fingers in the bums of major characters (figuratively, I hope )... So we know how approximately things will play out.

Aerys was objectively insane,  Aegon V, who burned down his entire family, too. Rhaegar is also qualified to be called mad, or at least he's fabulous idiot who was obsessed with the prophecy of the prince who was promised.

Inbreeding does leave a mark in generation. Usually, in this cases, intelligence is affected the most.

I doubt if the intense silliness of Seasons 7 and 8 is something we should expect.  Nor do I think mental illness = evil = destiny is a plot point.

[Rose of Red Lake]

There's a way to talk about it without being ableist towards people with mental health issues, the majority of whom aren't violent (they actually get more violence done to them, by the cops). I don't blame fans necessarily because GRRM encouraged all of this with his casual use of "madness."

Aerys with the Darklyns and Starks, Viserys with everyone, Aegon kicking over a game board, Aerion crushing a puppeteer's hands, Dany not liking Mirri's clapbacks. There's the whole "waking the dragon" thing that is a motif. It's logical to put more scrutiny on their actions, searching for signs of anything that could go wrong later. "You made me angry and now, you will pay." Even if they did do something wrong, this can be distorted later. It's like, I'm not going to always trust an angry person with a loaded gun to always shoot in the right direction.

[Daeron the Daring]

25 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Aerys with the Darklyns and Starks, Viserys with everyone, Aegon kicking over a game board, Aerion crushing a puppeteer's hands, Dany not liking Mirri's clapbacks.

I'm not defending Aerys, Viserys or Aerion, but people considering Aegon's outrun as a sign of madness or incapability of rulership is hilarious to me. Also, Daenerys has pretty good reasons for being mad at Mirri. These two occasions are simply highly emotional to these two, it should be understandable for everyone, I think.

 

25 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

There's the whole "waking the dragon" thing that is a motif.

This was only Viserys' thing, coming from his 'education' from his father. It is also understandable for Dany remembering this, as Viserys menaced her with this in her whole life. It's just like "making me upset" Targaryen version. 

Honestly, people see too much into it. Every house has their black patches.

[Rose of Red Lake]

11 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I'm not defending Aerys, Viserys or Aerion, but people considering Aegon's outrun as a sign of madness or incapability of rulership is hilarious to me. Also, Daenerys has pretty good reasons for being mad at Mirri. These two occasions are simply highly emotional to these two, it should be understandable for everyone, I think.

I'll just repeat what I said in my previous post. Notice I didn't say madness, because I think its an offensive term. I said there is a "sleeping dragon" motif the author is using. With Aegon - Tyrion's reaction is "maybe he IS a Targaryen!" Because that's what they're known for, having a really terrible temper. It's not just a one-off occasion if he's thinking that. I also said that even IF a person does have a reason to be angry like Dany, that she won't always have a valid reason. But I'll add that I go harder for Daenerys because she should be held to a higher standard. As the most powerful person in the story I have no problems scrutinizing her actions more than anyone else. I also don't see the downsides of absolutely roasting her and calling her a fascist in waiting. 

[Daeron the Daring]

15 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I'll just repeat what I said in my previous post. Notice I didn't say madness, because I think its an offensive term. I said there is a "sleeping dragon" motif the author is using. With Aegon - Tyrion's reaction is "maybe he IS a Targaryen!" Because that's what they're known for, having a really terrible temper. It's not just a one-off occasion if he's thinking that. I also said that even IF a person does have a reason to be angry like Dany, that she won't always have a valid reason. But I'll add that I go harder for Daenerys because she should be held to a higher standard. As the most powerful person in the story I have no problems scrutinizing her actions more than anyone else. I also don't see the downsides of absolutely roasting her and calling her a fascist in waiting. 

Quote

 

Young Griff jerked to his feet and kicked over the board. Cyvasse pieces flew in all directions, bouncing and rolling across the deck of the Shy Maid. "Pick those up," the boy commanded.

He may well be a Targaryen after all. "If it please Your Grace." Tyrion got down on his hands and knees and began to crawl about the deck, gathering up pieces.

 

Tyrion had this tought because YG "commanded" him. That made Tyrion think that the boy is born into ruling or something.

 The sleeping dragon became a motif because Viserys terrorized Daenerys with it in her entire life. This became a part of Daenerys, a saying for her, only for her.

Also, Targaryens are not known for having a terrible temper. A few having some kind of obsession with dragons is true, but I'd call it understandable, as it really comes from the extinction of dragons, a biggest black patch of their house's history.