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Malgoth

Why Aegon is a better ruler and leader than Daenerys and Jon combine

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Aegon’s role in the story is to take Jon’s place as the male lead.  Jon died.  He is not coming back a living, breathing man.  I don’t expect any more point of views from  Jon.  Robb’s part ended after he lost in the game. Jon lost and his POV days are over.   Aegon will be the male lead going forward.  Daenerys is obviously the female lead.  
 

The best ruler in the story is Daenerys.  Aegon shows promise but his temper and impulsivity are causes for concern.  He won’t last long if he can be easily manipulated as Tyrion did to him.  

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3 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Aegon’s role in the story is to take Jon’s place as the male lead.  Jon died.  He is not coming back a living, breathing man.  I don’t expect any more point of views from  Jon.  Robb’s part ended after he lost in the game. Jon lost and his POV days are over.   Aegon will be the male lead going forward.  Daenerys is obviously the female lead.  
 

The best ruler in the story is Daenerys.  Aegon shows promise but his temper and impulsivity are causes for concern.  He won’t last long if he can be easily manipulated as Tyrion did to him.  

You do know this isn't some power fantasy soap opera, right? Also you are aware GRRM has done basically everything but say out loud that Jon is coming back, and with him being a warg he should be in waaaay better shape than Beric or Cat.

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On 1/7/2021 at 4:14 PM, Malgoth said:

What a make character/person a good, even potential, ruler and leader? Obviously the most important thing it's education. What we know about Aegon's education?

 

Well, looking at, say, Matthias Corvinus, what made him a good ruler despite his youth (he was 18 when he became a king) were:

1. Education

2. Advisors

3. Stubborness

4. Lack of connections to magnates (minor nobility basically forced him onto the magnates)

Aegon checks out most of the boxes. He is educated, but stubborn, and has basically nobody in Westeros. Problem might happen with points 2. and 4. If Tyrells decide to back him, they may expect a reward, and so he would gain connections to magnates; and his advisors, are, well, nonexistent (beyond Jon, who has a clock ticking). Besides, most people in Westeros are kinda insane - though those with Dany are unlikely to be much better, unless Barristan survives Meereen.

On 1/7/2021 at 4:14 PM, Malgoth said:

Oh yes, Daenerys. What little Daenerys have been taught by Viserys, didn't helped her much considering that her kingdom Meereen is in the war with the entire Slaver's Bay, has huge economic and epidemic problems, not to mention social and cultural catastrophes. She failed at all fronts. Turns out not all problems can be dealt with dragonfire and an army of eunuchs. She still has support of the liberated slaves, but for how long? Maybe I'm too harsh on her, after all she is only 16. the same age Greta Thunberg was when became famous and quite similar to the Daenerys in character . Of course, if Greta had dragons, she would have solved all the world problems... Or would she?

 

That... is a better parallel than I thought. Though at least Daenerys puts in some actual effort, and actually cares about people.

On 1/7/2021 at 4:14 PM, Malgoth said:

What else make a good ruler? Well, it's a team. Loyal, competent team of professionals. This also the place where Aegon shines : lord Jon Connington, Haldon, Lemora, ser Rolly Duckfield, Franklyn Flowers, Lysono Maar, lord Laswell Peake with brothers and, the most important, Illyrio Mopatis and THE VARYS. Any ruler or leader who has full loyalty and support of the Spider, are 10 steps ahead of any other. The only person who close to Aegon and, likely, to betray him is Harry Strickland. Still, at least he isn't stabbed in the back and front by his brothers (Jon) or has entire list of prepared prophesied betrayals (Dany).

I think that Daenerys will end up causing those betrayals. She thinks too much about them as-is.

-------------

But in the end, none of this really matters. Yes, Aegon should be a decent (if flawed) ruler according to real-life logic. But this is a book. And ironically, from what we see of his education aboard Shy Maid, he would have likely done better in Meereen - whereas Daenerys might have done better in Westeros.

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6 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Well, looking at, say, Matthias Corvinus, what made him a good ruler despite his youth (he was 18 when he became a king) were:

1. Education

2. Advisors

3. Stubborness

4. Lack of connections to magnates (minor nobility basically forced him onto the magnates)

Aegon checks out most of the boxes. He is educated, but stubborn, and has basically nobody in Westeros. Problem might happen with points 2. and 4. If Tyrells decide to back him, they may expect a reward, and so he would gain connections to magnates; and his advisors, are, well, nonexistent (beyond Jon, who has a clock ticking). Besides, most people in Westeros are kinda insane - though those with Dany are unlikely to be much better, unless Barristan survives Meereen.

Tbf, Aegon is an almost direct parallel to Mathias, especially in the ways he will rule.

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I'm curious to see if Dorne will be punished in the narrative for marrying into/allying with the Targaryens. Like how hard is GRRM coming for this House? How many will go the way of Quenyn? Dany infertile, Jon back to celibacy, end of Blackfyres, end of Varys/Illyrio, and the end of House Martell and every Sandsnake that took part in it?

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8 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Tbf, Aegon is an almost direct parallel to Mathias, especially in the ways he will rule.

By dying and leaving everything to the Empire?

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16 hours ago, Aldarion said:
But in the end, none of this really matters. Yes, Aegon should be a decent (if flawed) ruler according to real-life logic. But this is a book. And ironically, from what we see of his education aboard Shy Maid, he would have likely done better in Meereen - whereas Daenerys might have done better in Westeros.

:laugh: Thank you now I have a picture of him constantly tripping on his tokar and marrying the Green Grace forever in my head. He has to wash her feat before they wed :rofl:

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1 hour ago, Sigella said:

Thank you now I have a picture of him constantly tripping on his tokar and marrying the Green Grace forever in my head. He has to wash her feat before they wed :rofl:

Isn't Graces like septas, who couldn't marry? Still, Malazza from the Yunkai would be a better match. After all, she's Yunkai's own Daenerys Targaryen.

 

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5 hours ago, Malgoth said:

Isn't Graces like septas, who couldn't marry? Still, Malazza from the Yunkai would be a better match. After all, she's Yunkai's own Daenerys Targaryen.

 

Don’t rain on my parade.

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The number one clue to me that "Aegon" will be a shitty ruler is the fact tat Varys made such a huge endorsement of him being educated all his life to be a good ruler.

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12 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

The number one clue to me that "Aegon" will be a shitty ruler is the fact tat Varys made such a huge endorsement of him being educated all his life to be a good ruler.

I'd say something about this, but @Aldarion summed it up best up above. Just read him. Or any of his other posts on the topic and on Mathias Corvinus.

 

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51 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I'd say something about this, but @Aldarion summed it up best up above. Just read him. Or any of his other posts on the topic and on Mathias Corvinus.

 

The thing is, this is a fantasy series, not a history series. Characters might be based on historical figures in terms of personality, position or motive, but that does not mean that the Martinverse will react the same way. @El Guapo is making a great point. Varys's endorsement here should make us all think twice about Aegon the Unconvincing.

Aegon is a 16 year old, just like Robb Stark, just like Jon Snow, barely older than Danearys Targaryen. He will make mistakes. There's a running theme in these books about the folly of giving power to children. I can easily see Aegon being greeted as a liberator by the people of Kings Landing because he is a "Targaryen" and not the hated Lannisters, only to lose that goodwill by making mistakes and bad desicions.

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39 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

The thing is, this is a fantasy series, not a history series. Characters might be based on historical figures in terms of personality, position or motive, but that does not mean that the Martinverse will react the same way. @El Guapo is making a great point. Varys's endorsement here should make us all think twice about Aegon the Unconvincing.

Aegon is a 16 year old, just like Robb Stark, just like Jon Snow, barely older than Danearys Targaryen. He will make mistakes. There's a running theme in these books about the folly of giving power to children. I can easily see Aegon being greeted as a liberator by the people of Kings Landing because he is a "Targaryen" and not the hated Lannisters, only to lose that goodwill by making mistakes and bad desicions.

That is true (though I will note that I do not think Aegon is "based" on Matthias Corvinus; rather, Aegon "corresponds" to him, they are both in the same position; the only difference is that there was no doubt about Matthias' parentage). ASoIaF, after all, has next to no connection to actual history; it is a deeply flawed, inaccurate and cynical portrayal of historical periods it is "inspired" by (and not just Westeros: compare Dothraki with Mongols). If Martin follows logical setup and conclusions through, then Aegon should be better ruler than Daenerys. But there is a very good chance he will not. On the other hand, Daenerys' internal conflict and potential war with Aegon will be much more impactful if he does, in fact, become a good or at least adequate ruler. If he becomes only another tyrant to be removed, that will be just the boring old story all over again.

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fAegon comes over as pretty petulant to me.  Jon Connington’s bitterest regret is that he didn’t massacre the people of Stoney Sept.  He also wants to wipe out Robert’s bloodline.  Assuming they ally with the Dornish, the Sand Snakes are pretty nasty people, too.  I would place very little faith in his ability to rule well.

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48 minutes ago, SeanF said:

fAegon comes over as pretty petulant to me.  Jon Connington’s bitterest regret is that he didn’t massacre the people of Stoney Sept.  He also wants to wipe out Robert’s bloodline.  Assuming they ally with the Dornish, the Sand Snakes are pretty nasty people, too.  I would place very little faith in his ability to rule well.

:agree:

Aegon, whatever his personal intentions, will still be a teenager surrounded by powerful advisors who each have questionable motives. In universe, I think Queen Rhyneara might be a better example of how Aegon's reign might play out; seen as a liberator initially, but largely reviled by the end, though in his case he might be blamed unfairly for his advisors actions.

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More people care about Dany and her glorious return to Westeros, so having Aegon turn into another shittastic ruler or petulant brat doesn't quite fit with the goal of kicking readers in the balls that the author says he's trying to do.

 

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1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

More people care about Dany and her glorious return to Westeros, so having Aegon turn into another shittastic ruler or petulant brat doesn't quite fit with the goal of kicking readers in the balls that the author says he's trying to do.

 

I think the problem lies less with him (or Arianne) and more with those who serve them ( a likely problem for Dany, as well).  I can’t see any Lannister, Baratheon, or Tyrell receiving mercy, if they take Kings Landing.  The deaths of Margaery, Tommen etc. Would be that authorial kick in the balls.

Edited by SeanF

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10 hours ago, SeanF said:

fAegon comes over as pretty petulant to me.  Jon Connington’s bitterest regret is that he didn’t massacre the people of Stoney Sept.  He also wants to wipe out Robert’s bloodline.  Assuming they ally with the Dornish, the Sand Snakes are pretty nasty people, too.  I would place very little faith in his ability to rule well.

It is a possibility. And same as Daenerys: her only experience is ruling a formerly slaver city, and she may well be surrounded by the likes of Jorah (creepy obsessive self-centered fanboy), Daario (narcissist psycho) and Euron (sociopathic psycho). So in the end, if Aegon and Daenerys come to blows, we might have a "conflict of good but misguided people" or a "conflict of tyrants", or anything in-between. And both of them will likely have good intentions, only to be blocked by the people they are surrounded by. Which IMHO would fit Martin's style.

However, I have one problem with that: if Aegon becomes a tyrant (even if only by proxy), Daenerys may well find it very easy to justify "removing" him, especially if she already has doubts about his parentage.

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On 1/7/2021 at 5:32 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Stannis' men were getting pretty rapey with Val. He should have shut that down. 

So they behaved in accord with typical Wildling courtship?

When in his whole Northern campaign in dealing with Northern hospitality, Ironborn, snow , Boltons and Frey, forming logistics for defense from the Others he would have time to deal with minor issues, which Lord Commander of Night's Watch or even Val herself could had taken care of?

Edited by Eltharion21

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