aeverett Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 I was just re-listening (audiobook) to Catelyn I in Game of Thrones, and Catelyn mentions that the Ice Ned has is around 400 years old. Around the same time, King Tommen II Lannister disappeared with the Valyrian steel sword Brightroar on his way to the Valyrian ruins. Coincidence? It seems likely it is just coincidental, but Ice is so massive it nicely forges into two swords, Oathkeeper and Widows Wail, and both swords have two colors, the normal dark grey of Valyrian steel, but with flecks of red running through the metal. What if Ice was forged from Brightroar by melting down the Lannister sword and mixing the molten metal with another sword's metal? Two swords go missing from history, but one comes into existence, Ice. This isn't to say I approve of Tywin melting down Ice. Tywin would have no way of knowing Brightroar was part of Ice and the sword should have been given to Sansa as after Robb, with Bran and Rickon presumed dead, the thing should belong to her to be passed to a son of hers. However, if this theory were true, it might make a nice coda to the conflict between the Starks and Lannisters. The Starks destroyed Brightroar. Centuries later the Lannisters destroy Ice. But in the end, they each get a Valyrian steel sword as there is enough metal to go around. Peace at last. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 It's been soooooooooooooooooooooooo long since a sword topic. So thank you 1 hour ago, aeverett said: I was just re-listening (audiobook) to Catelyn I in Game of Thrones, and Catelyn mentions that the Ice Ned has is around 400 years old Yes. The original Ice was from the Age of Heroes, lost or destroyed 1 hour ago, aeverett said: Around the same time, King Tommen II Lannister disappeared with the Valyrian steel sword Brightroar on his way to the Valyrian ruins. Coincidence? Brightroar came into the possession of the Kings of the Rock from House Lannister in the century before the Doom of Valyria, and it is said that the weight of gold they paid for it would have been enough to raise an army. Anytime in that century. Anyone of those 100 years. Probably middle. So foolish Tommen lost it too soon. 1 hour ago, aeverett said: What if Ice was forged from Brightroar by melting down the Lannister sword and mixing the molten metal with another sword's metal? Two swords go missing from history, but one comes into existence, Ice. Timelines don't match sadly. Brightroar lost AFTER Doom. Ice acquired just before. And we need to account for another missing sword 1 hour ago, aeverett said: This isn't to say I approve of Tywin melting down Ice. 1 hour ago, aeverett said: Tywin would have no way of knowing Brightroar was part of Ice and the sword should have been given to Sansa as after Robb, with Bran and Rickon presumed dead, the thing should belong to her to be passed to a son of hers Sry. Damn quote Tywin doesn't need anyone's approval. He's immoral, unethical, Machiavellian disciple of Chanakya. He would have reforged any VS sword he could get his hands on as proven with Ice, even if he knew or was ignorant of the improbable fact that it was a reforged version of Brightroar. Tyrion rightly regrets his decision to not return to Robb. 1 hour ago, aeverett said: However, if this theory were true, it might make a nice coda to the conflict between the Starks and Lannisters. The conflict is being cooled down as the story progresses. Tyrion and Sansa. Probably Myrcella and someone, Poor fat stupid Tommen will die tho IMO. 1 hour ago, aeverett said: The Starks destroyed Brightroar. Centuries later the Lannisters destroy Ice. But in the end, they each get a Valyrian steel sword as there is enough metal to go around. Peace at last. Just a thought. Improbable, even impossible but nice thought EDIT Curse me for selfishness. Didn't tag CF. Join in on the fun @Curled Finger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lollygag Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 Not really the answer you're looking for but look at this: ASOS Tyrion VIII King Joffrey and his queen met the pie below the dais. As Joff drew his sword, Margaery laid a hand on his arm to restrain him. "Widow's Wail was not meant for slicing pies." "True." Joffrey lifted his voice. "Ser Ilyn, your sword!" From the shadows at the back of the hall, Ser Ilyn Payne appeared. The specter at the feast, thought Tyrion as he watched the King's Justice stride forward, gaunt and grim. He had been too young to have known Ser Ilyn before he'd lost his tongue. He would have been a different man in those days, but now the silence is as much a part of him as those hollow eyes, that rusty chainmail shirt, and the greatsword on his back. Ser Ilyn bowed before the king and queen, reached back over his shoulder, and drew forth six feet of ornate silver bright with runes. He knelt to offer the huge blade to Joffrey, hilt first; points of red fire winked from ruby eyes on the pommel, a chunk of dragonglass carved in the shape of a grinning skull. Sansa stirred in her seat. "What sword is that?" Tyrion's eyes still stung from the wine. He blinked and looked again. Ser Ilyn's greatsword was as long and wide as Ice, but it was too silvery-bright; Valyrian steel had a darkness to it, a smokiness in its soul. Sansa clutched his arm. "What has Ser Ilyn done with my father's sword?" I should have sent Ice back to Robb Stark, Tyrion thought. He glanced at his father, but Lord Tywin was watching the king. Ilyn Payne is the king's justice here and Ice is used for justice, specifically execution. Joff dies right after he eats the pie that the sword cuts. Ilyn is a ghost of Winterfell type figure, recalling the statues in the crypts. In AGOT, he has pale, icy eyes. Sansa comes to attention: who's sword is that? Where's Ice? So we're supposed to make a certain association here. There's more: it's a six foot greatsword as long and as wide as Ned's Ice, suited for ceremonial execution, but not so much fighting being 6 feet long. It has red eyes like the weirwood faces, dragonglass like used against the Others, described as silvery bright (Others hate light) and there's a grinning skull - a good choice for a sword primarily used for executions. While glyphs are the writing of old Valyria, it's covered in runes which the First Men use. This is a pretty northy sword, yes? Tyrion immediately mentions Ice to the reader again. He should have given it back to Robb. If the original Ice is somewhere in the story, the Lannisters have it. It's not seen again in Ilyn's possession. Tywin gave it to him for this night and took it back. Joff used Ice through Ilyn to execute Ned. Joff's death may have come via Ilyn and using the original Ice. Full circle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeverett Posted January 8, 2021 Author Share Posted January 8, 2021 1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said: Timelines don't match sadly. Brightroar lost AFTER Doom. Ice acquired just before. And we need to account for another missing sword How do we know Ice was acquired just before the Doom? We know it's about 400 years, but as far as I remember no specific year was given, and it's Catelyn's POV and she isn't a Stark by birth, so she might not know exactly herself. It's the 400 number for both swords that gets me. The Doom happens in 102 BC. Illyn Payne takes Ned's head with it in 299 AC. 401 years between the Doom and Ned's death. We know Tommen II Lannister takes Brightroar to Valyria after the Doom, and we know he's a king, so it has to be before the Field of Fire the Lannisters bending the knee to Aegon the Conqueror. That means the timelines could work, seeing as we have no precise year for Tommen II's journey to Valyria, but we're in the vicinity of the time Ice appears. The theory isn't discredited by the timeline, but again, it seems like a long shot seeing as Tommen II was in Essos when he and the sword disappeared, while the Starks tend to remain in the North, for the most part. Still, some Starks have traveled and we don't know who was King in the North when the Doom happened or the years immediately following. There are too many variables to completely discredit the theory, or at least that the two swords being gained by one house and lost by another, has some intentional meaning I'm not seeing. As for a second sword, not a clue, but the swords we do know about tend to appear or are lost in the centuries after Aegon's Conquest, so we can rule those out. Just an entire Freehold's armory to sift through now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 2 hours ago, aeverett said: How do we know Ice was acquired just before the Doom How do we know that it was acquired after the doom? No reason to suspect it otherwise 2 hours ago, aeverett said: We know it's about 400 years, but as far as I remember no specific year was given, and it's Catelyn's POV and she isn't a Stark by birth, so she might not know exactly herself. It's the 400 number for both swords that gets me. The Doom happens in 102 BC. Illyn Payne takes Ned's head with it in 299 AC. 401 years between the Doom and Ned's death. And there is semi canon disputing that both Longclaw and Ice were gotten 500 years ago together. Longclaw probably gifted to Mormonts. For loyal service. This too Brightroar was surely acquired before the doom as that Lannister gold (supposedly enough to hire an entire army) ruined the Valyrians. Second curse of Lannister gold was Jaime killing Aerys. Third may be.... Keep Guessing Ice too before the doom is more likely 2 hours ago, aeverett said: We know Tommen II Lannister takes Brightroar to Valyria after the Doom, and we know he's a king, so it has to be before the Field of Fire the Lannisters bending the knee to Aegon the Conqueror. That means the timelines could work, seeing as we have no precise year for Tommen II's journey to Valyria, but we're in the vicinity of the time Ice appears. Oh i completely forget....! 2 hours ago, aeverett said: As for a second sword, not a clue, but the swords we do know about tend to appear or are lost in the centuries after Aegon's Conquest, so we can rule those out. Just an entire Freehold's armory to sift through now The second sword is what's making me uncomfortable with your theory. As you said, timeline isn't certain. 500,400 yrs anything GRRM chooses to change. But this seems introduced to serve the theory not spontaneously discovered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 6 hours ago, Lollygag said: He would have been a different man in those days, The quiet wolf Rickard Stark ? The stonemason had known him well. He sat with quietdignity, stone fingers holding tight to the sword across his lap, but in life all swords had failed him Hollow eyes instead of those commonly described. Makes me think of the hollow of a faceless mask Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sleeper Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 No, the swords have no connection. The enmity between Starks and Lannisters is not historical, but stems from Ned's mistrust of Tywin. The reason Brightroar is lost is so Tywin has a reason to steal and melt Ice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lollygag Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 3 hours ago, Eliscat said: The quiet wolf Rickard Stark ? The stonemason had known him well. He sat with quietdignity, stone fingers holding tight to the sword across his lap, but in life all swords had failed him Hollow eyes instead of those commonly described. Makes me think of the hollow of a faceless mask Nah. Reading single lines and phrases in this series can get really weird. Context is so important. Just means Ilyn Payne having his tongue cut out changed him a lot, in a died inside sort of way. The description def reminds me of the ghosts of Winterfell or the stone statues in the crypts, though. From the shadows at the back of the hall, Ser Ilyn Payne appeared. The specter at the feast, thought Tyrion as he watched the King's Justice stride forward, gaunt and grim. He had been too young to have known Ser Ilyn before he'd lost his tongue. He would have been a different man in those days, but now the silence is as much a part of him as those hollow eyes, that rusty chainmail shirt, and the greatsword on his back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 20 hours ago, aeverett said: I was just re-listening (audiobook) to Catelyn I in Game of Thrones, and Catelyn mentions that the Ice Ned has is around 400 years old. Around the same time, King Tommen II Lannister disappeared with the Valyrian steel sword Brightroar on his way to the Valyrian ruins. Coincidence? It seems likely it is just coincidental, but Ice is so massive it nicely forges into two swords, Oathkeeper and Widows Wail, and both swords have two colors, the normal dark grey of Valyrian steel, but with flecks of red running through the metal. What if Ice was forged from Brightroar by melting down the Lannister sword and mixing the molten metal with another sword's metal? Two swords go missing from history, but one comes into existence, Ice. This isn't to say I approve of Tywin melting down Ice. Tywin would have no way of knowing Brightroar was part of Ice and the sword should have been given to Sansa as after Robb, with Bran and Rickon presumed dead, the thing should belong to her to be passed to a son of hers. However, if this theory were true, it might make a nice coda to the conflict between the Starks and Lannisters. The Starks destroyed Brightroar. Centuries later the Lannisters destroy Ice. But in the end, they each get a Valyrian steel sword as there is enough metal to go around. Peace at last. Just a thought. Audiobook is the only way for busy folk. Alone in the car can give as much focus as reading. Our friend @The Last Wolf has provided a very nice breakdown of the timeline, but it's cool to know you're reading with that sort of attention. I, for one or two, believe that when and where and coincidence and clever pairing of the swords inspires investigation that can lead to some interesting things. It never crossed my mind to connect BR to Ice, but that is where your investigation led. Ain't nothing wrong with a thought bounced off other readers. Things need to fit and your idea has a sweet ending. What came to my mind as I read the OP and a comment or two, was "What will the Starks think about OK & WW when they learn they are incarnations of their ancestral sword?" Arya will not like this. Will it change the way Jon feels about LC? I suspect I am more cynical about this tale's ending, but Man have I got fantasies about the role Valyrian Steel swords will play. The swords are fun. While ASOIAF gives me the most hideous and broken, achingly sad endings with little but promise of worse yet to come and an unpredictable author, I hope there will be some small peace in Westeros. Yah, I need to go read some topics about the way Martin writes and get a better feel for his real endings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 6 hours ago, Curled Finger said: Audiobook is the only way for busy folk. Alone in the car can give as much focus as reading. Rightly said, but nothing can replace a good thumbed yellowing dog eared paperback or Folio society type binded illustrated tome manuscript. Ebooks and audio books are just substitutes. 6 hours ago, Curled Finger said: Our friend @The Last Wolf has provided a very nice breakdown of the timeline, but it's cool to know you're reading with that sort of attention. Thank you CF, but it's @TheLastWolf, not @The Last Wolf, FTFY, that fellow claimed the name first so i had to go like how it's now. And he's dormant. 6 hours ago, Curled Finger said: Yah, I need to go read some topics about the way Martin writes and get a better feel for his real endings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 7 hours ago, TheLastWolf said: Rightly said, but nothing can replace a good thumbed yellowing dog eared paperback or Folio society type binded illustrated tome manuscript. Ebooks and audio books are just substitutes. Thank you CF, but it's @TheLastWolf, not @The Last Wolf, FTFY, that fellow claimed the name first so i had to go like how it's now. And he's dormant. Sorry about that, kiddo. Of course there may come a time in your future life where your mind prefers the absorption of a tale in an entirely different sort of way. Eyes wear out. In the brave new world of aging and dimming of senses few things beat a well narrated story. It's good to have options. When and where the swords appear is a big deal in my study of them. I actually tried to place King Tommen Lannister II on a time line, but was unable to pinpoint. Your argument above is as sound as it can be given what we currently know. Brightroar is funny that way, with 100 years of possibility to ponder. I have to go with all the "new" swords, Brightroar being the big one and any arakh, of course being such a strange thing for the Valyrians to make and stranger still for showing up in Westeros. I'm sure the lust for and loss of Brightroar informs us of the reasons for Tywin's mutilation of Ice and forging of WW & OK. Further, the heroic magic attached to VS is clear in Jamie's gifting of OK to Brienne. This here is a real quest our Lady Sir is on, complete with magic sword. If Jamie was the Lannister gold that caused the ruination of Valyrians, what was Tywin that he should make that last (12th live or identifiable) required magic sword? What currently active sword will represent the Westerlands when time comes? I think it's possible maybe likely that 1 of the impoverished houses Tyrion mentions Tywin approached to purchase a sword in in the Westerlands. In fact, our friend @Seamswas instrumental in identifying the 2nd Westerlands house that fits the description of "impoverished". Interesting seeing Tywin in the light as possible father of heroics in dividing Ice to double the magic potential in them and complete my sacred requirement of a dozen of them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 14 hours ago, Curled Finger said: Sorry about that, kiddo No problem 14 hours ago, Curled Finger said: Of course there may come a time in your future life where your mind prefers the absorption of a tale in an entirely different sort of way. Eyes wear out. In the brave new world of aging and dimming of senses few things beat a well narrated story. It's good to have options. Sure! 14 hours ago, Curled Finger said: When and where the swords appear is a big deal in my study of them. I actually tried to place King Tommen Lannister II on a time line, but was unable to pinpoint. Your argument above is as sound as it can be given what we currently know. Brightroar is funny that way, with 100 years of possibility to ponder. Maybe the future books will reveal more, if/when they come 14 hours ago, Curled Finger said: I have to go with all the "new" swords, Brightroar being the big one and any arakh, of course being such a strange thing for the Valyrians to make and stranger still for showing up in Westeros. I'm sure the lust for and loss of Brightroar informs us of the reasons for Tywin's mutilation of Ice and forging of WW & OK. Further, the heroic magic attached to VS is clear in Jamie's gifting of OK to Brienne. This here is a real quest our Lady Sir is on, complete with magic sword. If Jamie was the Lannister gold that caused the ruination of Valyrians, what was Tywin that he should make that last (12th live or identifiable) required magic sword? What currently active sword will represent the Westerlands when time comes? I think it's possible maybe likely that 1 of the impoverished houses Tyrion mentions Tywin approached to purchase a sword in in the Westerlands. In fact, our friend @Seamswas instrumental in identifying the 2nd Westerlands house that fits the description of "impoverished". Interesting seeing Tywin in the light as possible father of heroics in dividing Ice to double the magic potential in them and complete my sacred requirement of a dozen of them! OK is for Brienne. That's settled. If she dies, Jaime. But now the current situation is leaning towards the vice versa of this duo. WW, we'll speculate as we are doing and done in earlier too The impoverished Western house, I'll take a guess, Spicer or Westerling? And your last para is absolutely adding to the many ironies of Tywin's actions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 2 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said: The impoverished Western house, I'll take a guess, Spicer or Westerling? Actually Westerling was the house I found, I believe (it's been so long!) @Seams identified House Payne (or vice versa, but I'm pretty sure the text is explicit about the Westerlings where House Payne's impoverishment is a more nuanced sort of study. We know House Corbray was broke and Lyn was up for sale. That is desperation and therefore impoverishment. The Mormonts are described as modest. Neither House Drumm nor Harlaw are noted to be in any way suffering financially. The Peakes have all but vanished from the current story. Tywin approached 3 impoverished houses. I'm betting Corbray was one and am comfortable with the other 2 being Westerling or Payne, since we don't actually know where in Westeros Truth is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 10 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: I'm betting Corbray was one and am comfortable with the other 2 being Westerling or Payne, I had a crackpot about Pod's secret identity and a lot of VS blades popped up. Brightroar is the latest addition This one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 Just now, TheLastWolf said: I had a crackpot about Pod's secret identity and a lot of VS blades popped up. Brightroar is the latest addition This one We are having a chat about Longclaw below or above this chat. Go see which sword Brightroar is matched to! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: We are having a chat about Longclaw below or above this chat. Go see which sword Brightroar is matched to! Dark Sister! But as opposite God! VS steel interest resurgence, and just the time for me to be tied up with family commitments... Grumble Grumble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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