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Fitting Longclaw Among Magic Swords


Curled Finger

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It occurred to me that the names of the magical swords we have in ASOIAF are matched to other named and famed swords.  For example, Dawn is the opposite of Nightfall and both represent states of light.  Lightbringer would certainly fall into this category.  Widows Wail and Orphan-maker speak to familial loss that a sword named Lady Forlorn or Lamentation would fit in a non-specific sort of way, though Lady Forlorn speaks more clearly (to me) matched with Heartsbane as emotions or outcomes.  Lamentation can be lumped in with both categories as an amplifier of sadness or despairing dispositions.  Red Rain and Blackfyre names contain both color and elemental references.  Truth and Vigilance are (knightly?) virtues perhaps Oathkeeper could be a topical heading for.  Dark Sister and Brightroar are opposites as color descriptors.  The sword not having a corresponding or opposite pairing in any way is Longclaw. 

Following much research into the magical swords of Westeros it seems there is a correlation between some swords and their historical wielders that may be helpful in identifying their ultimate Westerosi hero wielder.  Blackfyre is the sword of Targaryen Kings.  Dark Sister is a Sorcerer’s sword, Longclaw is an Oathbreaker’s sword and I’m inclined to believe Lady Forlorn may be a Second Son’s sword.  Don’t take that to the bank until you see it in Sandor Clegane’s hands, though, there isn’t as much evidence for this as for BF, DS & LC categoration.  All one really has to do is pay attention to the histories available for previous wielders. 

I was surprised to find that Longclaw is the name of a bird as well as a description of an animal grip.  Still not seeing a match with anything but Sansa (Little Bird) and Sansa is not a sword.   While I would delight in declaring Longclaw is Lightbringer because of its uniqueness among our named swords there is no where to go with it.   It’s not a match or opposite at all.  The only match I find for Longclaw is in the configuration of it as a bastard sword or 1.5 hands sword as Blackfyre is made.  Not much trouble finding a connection there and beyond.   But what about the name?  Where does Longclaw fit among the famous magical swords in Westeros?

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We could a long way towards answering this if we knew how and when House Mormont acquired such a treasure. It wouldn't hurt to know where they hung their helmets before they settled on Bear Island as well- was it called Bear Island before it was given to them or did they take their sigil when they assumed lordship? Are there any actual bears on Bear Island, anyways? The Mormonts are not wealthy and seem historically to favor axes, so how did they manage to get a blade while the knightly Manderly go without (I think?) and the Boltons' make do with a VS flensing knife?

"Longclaw" as a name has always seemed very totemistic, very Northern to me.

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I have to ask. Why do you think these swords are magical? Is it because they're Valyrian steel?

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

The only match I find for Longclaw is in the configuration of it as a bastard sword or 1.5 hands sword as Blackfyre is made.

The only difference between the two swords is the crossguard. For what it's worth, I don't believe the sword mentioned in the Tyrion sample chapter for ADwD is Blackfyre at all. I wrote something about it here. I think the sword has been back in Westeros for a while. 

That said, going back in the text, I cannot remember anything about Jorah giving up or leaving his sword, except for what Jeor told Jon when he gave him the sword. Even when Dany tells Jorah that she will one day gift him a Valyrian steel sword, there has been no follow up on that. I don't know, but it seems to me that Jorah might have mentioned this at one point, that his family owns a Valyrian steel sword. It's also interesting that while he crossed the line and sold poachers into slavery, the one thing of value that he might have had, Longclaw, he didn't sell, and we know there's a family that would have paid a small fortune to get their grubby paws on a Valyrian steel sword. 

I don't know if Longclaw and Blackfyre are the same and I tend to doubt it, but the biggest hole in the Longclaw story is Jorah. 

Part of me goes, well, Aegon must have had a good reason to allow BR to take Dark Sister to the Wall when he had three sons who could have wielded the sword. So if Blackfyre turned up in Westeros, then maybe the same reasoning was used to allow BR to take it with him as well.

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

For example, Dawn is the opposite of Nightfall and both represent states of light.

I like these opposite thing. Dawn, as you said, is the opposite of Nightfall. It would be really interesting to find out if Dalton Greyjoy renamed the sword Nightfall seeing as a Greyjoy is set to bring about the apocalypse. There's also Red Rain that could fit in with Dawn and Nightfall if we relate it to the Long Night and the bleeding star. Red stars falling from the sky would be like red rain. I think the fact that both Nightfall and Red Rain are in possession of two ironborn makes things even more interesting.

I think the original Ice that was mentioned in like the 3rd chapter of the story, along with Lightbringer and Dawn could be the same sword. 

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1 hour ago, hiemal said:

We could a long way towards answering this if we knew how and when House Mormont acquired such a treasure. It wouldn't hurt to know where they hung their helmets before they settled on Bear Island as well- was it called Bear Island before it was given to them or did they take their sigil when they assumed lordship? Are there any actual bears on Bear Island, anyways? The Mormonts are not wealthy and seem historically to favor axes, so how did they manage to get a blade while the knightly Manderly go without (I think?) and the Boltons' make do with a VS flensing knife?

"Longclaw" as a name has always seemed very totemistic, very Northern to me.

It's good to see you, Man!  I too, have pondered the strange lack of history for both the Mormonts and Longclaw.  While the manner in which Jon acquires Longclaw makes sense to me, neither the Mormonts nor Longclaw do.  In that Jon possesses Longclaw says a lot.   A northern sword for a northern king with heavy accent on a sort of adoption of Jon by Jeor.   From Jeor's vantage I gather he thinks he is the end of the line and sees greatness in Jon Snow.   Ok, great.   If we take the scant history there is as true I can only assume that Jeor, possibly Maege, know something about the Others and expect Longclaw to play a part in defeating them.   I get the feeling House Mormont understands skin changing and overall northern magic maybe better than many in the North.   

I believe you and I discussed the possibility of Longclaw having been some type of award for House Mormont and this assumption fits nicely with the little we know.  It's unlikely this family could afford a VS weapon.  The only place I hesitate to go all in is Jorah telling how he was able to keep his Hightower wife in style for a while.   There was wealth and to be honest, I can't equate "modest" with Tyrion's "impoverished" statements.  There was money and Jorah obviously thought he could keep up with Lynesse in selling slaves.   I don't need House Mormont to be uber rich or powerful to have Longclaw, but as you bring up in the naming of Bear Island, they had something.  My current line of thinking is the Mormonts are akin to House Royce in understanding their part in keeping faith with the Nights Watch.  Maybe the Starks get it, but we don't know why Benjen went to the Wall nor why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.   Just rings of pact details to me.    Jeor retiring to the Wall is another odd thing.   If you are bound to send a male from your house each generation Jeor's retirement almost makes sense.  

Totemistic was a really nice word for establishing the "feel" of Longclaw.  I think you are right or at least on the right track here.  Longclaw doesn't have a partner or any real history.   It isn't mentioned in the great battles, just as House Mormont isn't mentioned.   Longclaw is very much a stand alone sword.  But why?   

I can write off a sword with axe throwers the same way I discount Nightfall and Red Rain with axe throwers.   These weapons are where they need to be and may not stay in their places, as we have already seen with Longclaw, Truth, Orphan-Maker and Dark Sister.  It's a big fat mystery and I'm really glad you brought up the sketchy history of Longclaw and House Mormont.   

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30 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

It's good to see you, Man!

You as well. I needed a while to digest the HBO... unpleasantness before I was ready to return Westeros. I'm glad that so many folks are still here keeping the fires of lore and tinfoil alive.

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!  I too, have pondered the strange lack of history for both the Mormonts and Longclaw.  While the manner in which Jon acquires Longclaw makes sense to me, neither the Mormonts nor Longclaw do.  In that Jon possesses Longclaw says a lot.   A northern sword for a northern king with heavy accent on a sort of adoption of Jon by Jeor.   From Jeor's vantage I gather he thinks he is the end of the line and sees greatness in Jon Snow.   Ok, great.   If we take the scant history there is as true I can only assume that Jeor, possibly Maege, know something about the Others and expect Longclaw to play a part in defeating them.   I get the feeling House Mormont understands skin changing and overall northern magic maybe better than many in the North.   

"Those who know do not speak, and those who speak do not know..." It wouldn't surprise me at all, and the animalistic name of Longclaw certainly makes me wonder. I wonder if the Mormonts didn't acquire the sword and reputation during the Battle for the Dawn and were later recognized when Bear Island "became available" after the infamous wrasslin' match. And of course what the real story is behind that transfer of power.

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I believe you and I discussed the possibility of Longclaw having been some type of award for House Mormont and this assumption fits nicely with the little we know.  It's unlikely this family could afford a VS weapon.  The only place I hesitate to go all in is Jorah telling how he was able to keep his Hightower wife in style for a while.   There was wealth and to be honest, I can't equate "modest" with Tyrion's "impoverished" statements.  There was money and Jorah obviously thought he could keep up with Lynesse in selling slaves.   I don't need House Mormont to be uber rich or powerful to have Longclaw, but as you bring up in the naming of Bear Island, they had something.  My current line of thinking is the Mormonts are akin to House Royce in understanding their part in keeping faith with the Nights Watch.  Maybe the Starks get it, but we don't know why Benjen went to the Wall nor why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.   Just rings of pact details to me.    Jeor retiring to the Wall is another odd thing.   If you are bound to send a male from your house each generation Jeor's retirement almost makes sense.  

Bear Island must have enough wealth to tempt the reavers. There's another possible origin for Longclaw- looted from slain Ironborn who themselves plundered the blade from someone else. I think they know something, but I also think the truest memory of the North probably lies in the Neck. I wonder if there have been any Reeds in the Mormont tree or bears in the swamps?

I like the idea of generational sacrifice to the Wall- I hadn't thought of it in those terms, but that feels right.

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Totemistic was a really nice word for establishing the "feel" of Longclaw.  I think you are right or at least on the right track here.  Longclaw doesn't have a partner or any real history.   It isn't mentioned in the great battles, just as House Mormont isn't mentioned.   Longclaw is very much a stand alone sword.  But why?   

Perhaps in the same way that heroes in Westeros seem to spring from dead mothers, swords of destiny must come as prodigies without a well established history? Bit of a stretch, but I think the symbolism of swords/cocks/lineage/history is very much intertwined in this series.

 

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2 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I have to ask. Why do you think these swords are magical? Is it because they're Valyrian steel?

The only difference between the two swords is the crossguard. For what it's worth, I don't believe the sword mentioned in the Tyrion sample chapter for ADwD is Blackfyre at all. I wrote something about it here. I think the sword has been back in Westeros for a while. 

That said, going back in the text, I cannot remember anything about Jorah giving up or leaving his sword, except for what Jeor told Jon when he gave him the sword. Even when Dany tells Jorah that she will one day gift him a Valyrian steel sword, there has been no follow up on that. I don't know, but it seems to me that Jorah might have mentioned this at one point, that his family owns a Valyrian steel sword. It's also interesting that while he crossed the line and sold poachers into slavery, the one thing of value that he might have had, Longclaw, he didn't sell, and we know there's a family that would have paid a small fortune to get their grubby paws on a Valyrian steel sword. 

I don't know if Longclaw and Blackfyre are the same and I tend to doubt it, but the biggest hole in the Longclaw story is Jorah. 

Part of me goes, well, Aegon must have had a good reason to allow BR to take Dark Sister to the Wall when he had three sons who could have wielded the sword. So if Blackfyre turned up in Westeros, then maybe the same reasoning was used to allow BR to take it with him as well.

I like these opposite thing. Dawn, as you said, is the opposite of Nightfall. It would be really interesting to find out if Dalton Greyjoy renamed the sword Nightfall seeing as a Greyjoy is set to bring about the apocalypse. There's also Red Rain that could fit in with Dawn and Nightfall if we relate it to the Long Night and the bleeding star. Red stars falling from the sky would be like red rain. I think the fact that both Nightfall and Red Rain are in possession of two ironborn makes things even more interesting.

I think the original Ice that was mentioned in like the 3rd chapter of the story, along with Lightbringer and Dawn could be the same sword. 

It's always interesting when you weigh in on swords.  Truth is I needed magic swords to stay interested in ASOIAF.  VS swords are mentioned as often if not more than magical swords of old, like Just Maid.  VS swords have names and histories (except Longclaw) and appear to be characters to me.  So yah, the components of VS lends itself to magic to me, but it is much more due to the way these swords are written in this story.  

Blackfyre is Blackfyre, a very dark one and a half hand sword and Longclaw is a bastard sword with a wolf's head and garnet chips for eyes.   I did not mean to imply they were the same sword.   The only 2 swords I think could actually be the same sword are Dawn and original Ice which would screw up my pairings!  What Jeor told Jon is all we have on how Jorah ended up without his ancestral heirloom.   I supposed Jorah had great shame at not being worthy of Longclaw and that's why he didn't mention it to Dany, whom he panders to any way.  Jorah doesn't want her to see him for the bum he thinks he is.   I wouldn't be really happy if someone told me they left behind a valuable thing I just vowed to give them in the immediate aftermath of a miracle I caused.  It is in these recesses I find Jorah really interesting.     Catching up with you it is damned odd this oath breaker and serious daydream believer didn't sell Longclaw.  All I have for that is Jorah may have understood he had some part to play in sacrifice or prophesy.  He was honor bound, likely his last scrap of honor, to leave Longclaw behind.  That was more important than facing loss of wife, home and freedom, maybe even life.  Jorah knew the deal he was getting into and at least honored what duty lay in his family.  I assume this duty extends back to the Pact.  You make an excellent point about Egg allowing Bloodraven to take DS on the road, even Aegon the Unworthy allowing both swords to fall into the hands of bastard sons.   Talk about not staying in step.  More recently, there is the curious case of Lynn Corbray inheriting Lady Forlorn while his elder brother got everything else.  It seems to me the bequeathing or rules to who gets an ancestral sword are interpreted by the guy who holds them.  A lot of breaking tradition in the past hundred years or so.  Then again, I think Egg knew why BR would need a magic sword or at least some magical aspect of the trip to the Wall.  I can't make any other sense of this.

I forgot about the bleeding star and applaud the connection you've made here.  The symbolism goes over my head for the most part, but you've pointed out a really obvious prophecy tie in.   This delights me as there is so little wonder associated with little mysteries and ideas that turn all of us on.  I made my list of pairs then a column for other swords that fit the theme of the name pairings.  3rd column was for how I felt the names defined them in the most basic terms I could.   I'm not a great theory crafter, nor story teller, but I am becoming a decent detective and you've provided yet another way to turn the glass on sword name associations.  I hope you will share any other associations you see.   Fascinating.  

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The swords were named by the families who acquired them. They may have had other names from previous owners. The name given at the time of the forging would have more significance.  Longclaw had another name in its history.  Dawn might have been Lightbringer at one time.  Likewise, Ice had a different name before she came to the Starks.  

The division of Ice is significant because the Lannisters ruined the Starks.  They separated Sansa from the pack and dispersed the other cubs.   Putting the pieces back together won't be easy. It might not happen at all.  

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4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Dark Sister is a Sorcerer’s sword

Visenya (probably), Maegor, Daemon and Aemon the Dragonknight really want a word with you. Bloodraven is only the last person to wield it, but he's not the sword's most famous user.

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4 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

The swords were named by the families who acquired them. They may have had other names from previous owners. The name given at the time of the forging would have more significance.  Longclaw had another name in its history.  Dawn might have been Lightbringer at one time.  Likewise, Ice had a different name before she came to the Starks.  

The division of Ice is significant because the Lannisters ruined the Starks.  They separated Sansa from the pack and dispersed the other cubs.   Putting the pieces back together won't be easy. It might not happen at all.  

You make a great point about nomenclature.  This has crossed my mind and I admit this could be bothersome, but I have to take it on faith that the names we have for them now matter.   I don't think the original Last Heroes had VS, but they had something magical.  I think original Ice could really have been an Other blade captured and preserved for what I couldn't say.  I have a hard time reconciling early time in this world.  We have such rich myths and legends, far richer than our own in our world.  I think you are calling out a real possibility that Dawn could be Lightbringer.  That naming is undeniably linked.  

I'm not so sure all the named swords had other names.   I read as much as I could about Nightfall and Red Rain and you know how little there really is.  The closest I can come to an answer is keeping the name of a sword seems to be a thing.  Like I kidnapped your daughter and made her a queen and you were never worthy kind of weird.   That alone reminds me of horrible things I have heard tale from souveniers of war.  Keeping the sword's name would be something of a matter of pride?  Maybe it tells or implies you vanquished this house?  I tend to think Red Rain has possibility in having belonged to House Reyne.  I can find two junctions in history where an idiot Ironborn could have intersected with a Reyne knight.  We may remember the North relationship to the Iron Islands, but the history is even deeper and more wretched with the Westerlands.  Not Nightfall, mind you.  I can't say where that is from, but I've read some really cool ideas about it.  I think Red Rain has always been Red Rain, Blackfyre and Dark Sister and the new swords, Widows Wail and Oathkeeper.  We know there have been at least 2 ancestral swords named Ice and Lady Forlorn.  A lot can happen there and has.  It's an odd sort of coincidence particularly considering the Valyrian version could have come to Westeros at the same time.  

See, I think you sort of hit my interest in the swords right on the head.   They seem to be indicating and trying to tell us something.   If you get a chance to read @hiemal's responses you may get a feel for coincidence of stories in these swords.  We can make connections to the main story we don't get, The Others through these swords.  I think so at least.   Thanks for your unique giving here.  

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32 minutes ago, hiemal said:

You as well. I needed a while to digest the HBO... unpleasantness before I was ready to return Westeros. I'm glad that so many folks are still here keeping the fires of lore and tinfoil alive.

"Those who know do not speak, and those who speak do not know..." It wouldn't surprise me at all, and the animalistic name of Longclaw certainly makes me wonder. I wonder if the Mormonts didn't acquire the sword and reputation during the Battle for the Dawn and were later recognized when Bear Island "became available" after the infamous wrasslin' match. And of course what the real story is behind that transfer of power.

Bear Island must have enough wealth to tempt the reavers. There's another possible origin for Longclaw- looted from slain Ironborn who themselves plundered the blade from someone else. I think they know something, but I also think the truest memory of the North probably lies in the Neck. I wonder if there have been any Reeds in the Mormont tree or bears in the swamps?

I like the idea of generational sacrifice to the Wall- I hadn't thought of it in those terms, but that feels right.

Perhaps in the same way that heroes in Westeros seem to spring from dead mothers, swords of destiny must come as prodigies without a well established history? Bit of a stretch, but I think the symbolism of swords/cocks/lineage/history is very much intertwined in this series.

 

Bah, my Brother, it is often more like the poetry of magic only you can tell.  It is less tinfoil and more lore.   Or maybe looking for lore.  All I know is I have missed you and it's very good to read your words in conversation again.  

Brilliant.

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9 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Visenya (probably), Maegor, Daemon and Aemon the Dragonknight really want a word with you. Bloodraven is only the last person to wield it, but he's not the sword's most famous user.

Wow.  An honor to host you in topic for a change.  Be welcome. 

The idea that DS is a Sorcerer's sword is an old one.   We have more history on Dark Sister than probably all the other swords combined.  We know a lot about the many people who have claimed her.  Or been claimed by her, not certain there.  There is actually some darker term that escapes me for what DS is, but you get the cruel, genius and even madness from history (!) Daemon wasn't really a sorcerer so much as he was boundlessly ambitious.   That made him cruel and attractive to more base personalities like Blood and Cheese, maybe even dark magicky sort of characters like Misaria.  Daemon was every bit as cruel as Visenya or Maegor and he wasn't stupid.  This same character is started over and over again with Aemon being a complete misfire.  Aemon became a legend just after his time and so young and seemed like a good guy.   Maybe too good, but left his mark in notable history for his deeds not his sword.  We have 16 named swords in all this and somehow it gets lost in a Prince's eye over the God's Eye and recovered.  Not a single other sword has been recovered and recovered like Dark Sister.  House Hightower's sword hasn't been seen since the Dance of the Dragons, but we haven't been told it's lost.   I think there is a sort of magic in Dark Sister.   Perhaps our friend hiemal will speak about the potential these blades have for absorbing souls.  Perhaps they do or perhaps it is the sword infecting the wielder.  You tell me.  

At any rate that's where I'm coming from on Sorcerers Sword.  

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2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Wow.  An honor to host you in topic for a change.  Be welcome. 

Make more topics then. Yours are really good.

5 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

There is actually some darker term that escapes me for what DS is, but you get the cruel, genius and even madness from history

Looking on TV Tropes for the One Ring, I believe the term is "Artifact of Doom"

8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Not a single other sword has been recovered and recovered like Dark Sister.

I mean it was only recovered once, from the lake and then it was due to being attached to Aemond, who was attached to one of the biggest dragons in existence.

9 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

This same character is started over and over again with Aemon being a complete misfire.  Aemon became a legend just after his time and so young and seemed like a good guy.

Baelon is also a misfire as he too wielded it. On the other hand the one time we do hear about him wielding it is when it's said he slaughtered all those responsible for the death of his brother, maybe there is something there.

Now that being said I believe you are right that the sword is somewhat of an artifact of doom, but I think it's less to do with magic, and more the power it both represents, grants, and is required to wield it. A person who wields Dark Sister is by definition a formidable swordsman, with all the risks that entails.

So probably less to do with magic, and more to do with power and the circumstances needed to wield it.

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12 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Looking on TV Tropes for the One Ring, I believe the term is "Artifact of Doom"

I mean it was only recovered once, from the lake and then it was due to being attached to Aemond, who was attached to one of the biggest dragons in existence.

Baelon is also a misfire as he too wielded it. On the other hand the one time we do hear about him wielding it is when it's said he slaughtered all those responsible for the death of his brother, maybe there is something there.

Now that being said I believe you are right that the sword is somewhat of an artifact of doom, but I think it's less to do with magic, and more the power it both represents, grants, and is required to wield it. A person who wields Dark Sister is by definition a formidable swordsman, with all the risks that entails.

So probably less to do with magic, and more to do with power and the circumstances needed to wield it.

Thank you for the compliment, but thank you more for your insights.  I knew when I reread my short history of DS's wielders I was too brief, but you seem to get exactly the idea.  Love that Artifact of Doom wording.  I also realized I jumped ahead in the 2nd recovery as it seems inevitable that DS will be discovered in BR's cave.  This is only eminent, hasn't actually happened, but when it does will you grant that no other sword has ever been recovered such as this has?  

Why not both about the characters and my naming Dark Sister a Sorcerer's Sword?  She hasn't been held by any slackers, that's clear.  Right place, drive and a sprinkle of magic.  

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1 hour ago, hiemal said:

Bear Island must have enough wealth to tempt the reavers. There's another possible origin for Longclaw- looted from slain Ironborn who themselves plundered the blade from someone else. I think they know something, but I also think the truest memory of the North probably lies in the Neck. I wonder if there have been any Reeds in the Mormont tree or bears in the swamps?

Excellent wording aside, this is a great possibility for origin and another name.  As I read this the 1st time I thought, Oh!  That could have happened and new possibilities turned over in my mind.  I know we are spit balling here (as we will), but what if Jon has Longclaw because it is original Ice?   Sorry, I'm sure I've read that before but I don't think I ever saw how it could be possible until this new possibility from you.  And now I do.  Would the swords have that much story to give?  Why would the Starks get a new one?  Oh yah, lots to chew on.  

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2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Why not both about the characters and my naming Dark Sister a Sorcerer's Sword?  She hasn't been held by any slackers, that's clear.  Right place, drive and a sprinkle of magic.  

In terms of the magic stuff, I think it's kinda like the comparisons between the Ring of Power and the Iron Throne. There are very clear parallels between the two, and they both have very similar effects on people (Aerys is basically a kind of Gollum when you think about it, already a deeply flawed creature, who's faults and failures were brought forward by the Throne/Ring until they consumed him, and the Throne/Ring became the only thing in the world for them as madness set in). However the difference is that the Throne seems to have little to no inherent magic attached to it (likely none what so ever, but Maegor and Rhaenyra are a thing, so take it as you will). I think something similar is the case with Dark Sister.

It's still functionally the same as what you described, but it's less about magic, and more about power, hubris, and the arrogance derived from the things needed to own the sword and the sword itself. Though there probably is some magic to it.

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@Alyn Oakenfist

A damned fine comparison between the Ring of Power and Iron Throne.  This is my lucky day for having the chance to see through other's eyes.  Aerys is a Gollum.  Why have I not seen this before?  It's all true.  

Now I have to defend my throne.  The IT has been given a fantasy sentience in killing those not fit to rule.  Rhaenyra, Aerys, & Maegor are all said to have been rejected by the IT.  Isn't it implied if not outright stated in the histories that the IT itself killed Maegor?  Jon and Brienne both marvel at their swords remarkable agility and credit their talent to the blades.  Harrenhal is said to be cursed.   Do inanimate objects have those types of ability?  Not without magic.   I do understand how the IT claims can be dismissed as even Aegon the Conqueror bled on the throne--really badly designed chair.  But Brienne goes so far as to credit OK with a win.  Jon has a berserker moment with LC in hand.  I am willing to listen to an explanation for these two knuckleheads.   

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10 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Excellent wording aside, this is a great possibility for origin and another name.  As I read this the 1st time I thought, Oh!  That could have happened and new possibilities turned over in my mind.  I know we are spit balling here (as we will), but what if Jon has Longclaw because it is original Ice?   Sorry, I'm sure I've read that before but I don't think I ever saw how it could be possible until this new possibility from you.  And now I do.  Would the swords have that much story to give?  Why would the Starks get a new one?  Oh yah, lots to chew on.  

That would be interesting- an act of particular heroism during the Battle for the Dawn, perhaps, saving a Stark and being rewarded with a Sword and lands or even taking it from a fallen Stark in the heat of the decisive melee or... after... if a certain Stark took it to the Wall and then became Night's King (Ice would be truly fitting blade for such as he!) and then it was reclaimed after that battle by Lord Mormont? I think I like that one for now!

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1 minute ago, Curled Finger said:

Aerys is a Gollum.  Why have I not seen this before?

Well I didn't see it until I started writing. I had the Iron Throne equals One Ring idea in my head for a long time (mainly from the fun parallel of 3 rings for the elves, 7 for the dwarves, 9 for men and one to rule them all vs 3 slave cities, 7 kingdoms, 9 free cities, and one throne to rule them all), but only writing did I realize the parallels with Gollum.

4 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Rhaenyra, Aerys, & Maegor are all said to have been rejected by the IT.  Isn't it implied if not outright stated in the histories that the IT itself killed Maegor?

Maegor could have been killed by aliens for all we know. More likely he just straight up committed suicide, though the manner is quite baffling for that explanation. As for the others, isn't there a point that Aegon I said that the Throne is meant to remind the ones who sit in in it never to get comfortable or complacent? A kind of heavy is the head that bears the crown warning? By that logic, the bad rulers were the ones that got complacent in the chair, and got consumed by power, so they weren't paying attention and cut themselves.

7 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Jon and Brienne both marvel at their swords remarkable agility and credit their talent to the blades.

Both Jon and Brienne, were told/shown that they were already good fighters. The Valyrian steel swords just added 20 combat ability.

8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Harrenhal is said to be cursed.   Do inanimate objects have those types of ability?

Alright, that I can't explain thematically/logically. Way too much death there. Probably set up for some major event in the War for the Dawn there

 

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@Alyn Oakenfist--enjoyed the numbers more than you can imagine.   That is sort of how the sword interest began for me.   I know there should be 12 swords to match the dozen heroes who started out with the Last Hero.  Simple enough, but there really were only 10 swords for a long time, until Truth and then Nightfall appear.  We get the names of the swords in Maester Thurgood's Inventories so I was convinced all of these swords were in Westeros or would get to Westeros quickly.  As it stands, with Tywin dividing Ice into OK & WW, that is the only way the VS swords could add up to 12.  This is swords, not arakhs or horns or axes, though I don't discount those items could come into play.  We only get 12 swords because there have only been 15 named VS Swords in Westeros therefore 3 must be lost or destroyed.   I am not as strict with my thinking anymore, but I do maintain this 12 was supposed to match the hero companions.   You know what else I like about it?  Martin was a big Dungeons and Dragons player in the day.  I think he's doing his spin on character classes in ASOIAF.  Of the 12 major D&D classes, I only have 3 left to match with a hero and therefore sword.   Doesn't make me right, but it is another 12.  Our wildcard sword is Vigilance and then possibly Nightfall (if it's really in the name and this sword does what its name implies in say some jerk like Euron's possession).  Curiously, if neither wildcard is available when needed Martin gave us an axe and arakh to replace them with.   It's still 12, I can't help it.   Naturally I have come up with a Long Night narrative that suits all this sacred silly math.  Sort of.  

At any rate, it was fun reading your breakdowns of the numbers that led you to compare the One Ring to the Iron Throne.  

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3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

 

It's still functionally the same as what you described, but it's less about magic, and more about power, hubris, and the arrogance derived from the things needed to own the sword and the sword itself. Though there probably is some magic to it.

I think that is one of the main themes of the series. I think that does make the Mad King a kind of Gollum parallel although I had also never thought of it in those terms. Power can become an excuse to wield that power?

As for whether the throne itself has magic- that depends on whether or not there is a Sword hidden among the swords. looking at you, Drogon, to settle that issue in a climactic finale scene.

 

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