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Fitting Longclaw Among Magic Swords


Curled Finger

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Inanimate objects and will:

I absolutely believe that VS swords have a spirit, that at least one human soul was absorbed in their creation and that its essence infuses that blade with a particular nature which might possibly be altered by absorbing other souls during combat and that the dominant soul (the one that determines a swords "personality") might further be from a time after the sword's creation. For example, I think that it is possible that the circumstances under which Aegon I's soul is absorbed by Blackfyre when he is cremated  might represent the essential nature of the blade, reflected in the name, even though the sword was presumable fairly old by the time that happened.

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@hiemal,  That Aerys/Gollum parallel was great, huh?  I hope this topic will give those of us who enjoy the magic and legends an opportunity to discuss all those possibilities.  Your opening statement could be any book reader's experience.  This was a great story before we got thinking HBO's story was the real story or supplemental or something important.  The mysteries are vast and the writing is so very satisfying.  Let's talk about the Long Night and The Last Hero and the age of Heroes and figure out this weird,  nearly hidden point you brought up:  Why would the Mormonts get so much from the Starks when the Crannogmen are so clearly drawn in close alliance to the magic of the North?   I'm trying to summon up reasons Starks reward their people?   They seem to be loyal employers and staunch friends and decent neighbors, but I don't recall any actual reward unless accompanying Ned to Kings Landing was a reward?  What would you have done with Lady Hornwood and her inheritance?  Still we know there was discontent in the North and it was the place where some of the worst blind prejudice indeed horrifying awful things were practiced in all Westeros.  Something is way off up North.  I think there are generational debts to this pact.  How does that fit in with what Craster did?  First Night, flaying, dead kings in crypts built beneath the place where people live, Ramsay, the Weeper, Varamyr.  How would you compare that with what goes on in say Kings Landing?  I haven't done a search but I don't recall Ned mentioning the Mormonts.   We see them more in person than second hand.  That's odd too.  

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What a beautiful thing to come back to Westeros and immediately be greeted by a topic such as this one! I am lucky to have such friends.

The OP intrigues me. I think I follow and agree that Longclaw seems out of place in the group. Nothing is a coincidence, at least not after ten years. I love to find new topics to obsess over.

Premises we definitely agree on: the swords are magical; they will be wielded by important people (heroes?); their names and histories matter.

I find it curious that, when Jon asks if the sword has a name, Mormont tells him “it had once”. Why is that? It feels significant to me, but I may be seeing something that’s not there.

The nod @hiemal made to the totemistic nature of Longclaw really spoke to me. I think he nailed something important. The religion of old gods is based on animism, the belief that objects, places, creatures all possess a distinct spiritual essence. So all this swords connected to different times of the day (dawn and nightfall) and elements (rain and fire) and feelings (lamentation, forlorn) and even people (orphan, widow), each of them must have their own spiritual essences, let’s call it… their own magic?

Bears and wolves have claws, Jon notices. I suppose, Jeor answers. Longclaw is the only sword that has an animalistic quality to it. This sword’s spiritual essence, or magic, is of animal origin and that’s quite unique.

That got me thinking about claws. What I wanted to add to this interesting and compelling thread regards claws.

The very first time “claw” comes up at all in the books is in Jon II. Jon defies Catelyn Stark to say goodbye to a comatose Bran before leaving for the Wall. This is it: She was holding one of his hands. It looked like a claw. This was not the Bran he remembered. The flesh had all gone from him. His skin stretched tight over bones like sticks.

So Bran, the kid with the magic destiny who will become very much raven-like in the future, has hands like claws, and this is the first time ever the word shows up. Ravens and crows have claws, too. Mormont’s raven (Bloodraven?) even repeats “claw, claw” after Mormont says the sword’s name for the first time.

Another passage sprung to my eyes, one that I feels first connects claws and swords before Jon gets his. This is Arya III: The Red Keep was full of cats: lazy old cats dozing in the sun, cold-eyed mousers twitching their tails, quick little kittens with claws like needles, ladies' cats all combed and trusting, ragged shadows prowling the midden heaps.

Needle is Arya’s sword, and she likens the claws of “quick little kittens” (the ones she’ll favor and emulate later on in the story) to needles i.e. swords.

There are other instances where claws might be significant, like when Ned has a dream of Rhaegar crowning Lyanna and he reaches for the flowery crown but the hidden thorns claw at his hands and spill his blood. This crowning is the point of no return that sets the whole story in motion, and this crawn has claws in Eddard Stark’s mind.  Food for thought, I say. But now comes my favorite excerpt:

Clash of King, Bran VII. We are inside Summer’s mind. He padded over dry needles and brown leaves, to the edge of the wood where the pines grew thin. Beyond the open fields he could see the great piles of man-rock stark against the swirling flames. The wind blew hot and rich with the smell of blood and burnt meat, so strong he began to slaver. Yet as one smell drew them onward, others warned them back. He sniffed at the drifting smoke. Men, many men, many horses, and fire, fire, fire. No smell was more dangerous, not even the hard cold smell of iron, the stuff of man-claws and hardskin.

The wolf calls all and every sword man-claws. Jon calls this one swords a wolf’s claw.

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33 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

@hiemal,  That Aerys/Gollum parallel was great, huh?  I hope this topic will give those of us who enjoy the magic and legends an opportunity to discuss all those possibilities.  Your opening statement could be any book reader's experience.  This was a great story before we got thinking HBO's story was the real story or supplemental or something important.  The mysteries are vast and the writing is so very satisfying.  Let's talk about the Long Night and The Last Hero and the age of Heroes and figure out this weird,  nearly hidden point you brought up:  Why would the Mormonts get so much from the Starks when the Crannogmen are so clearly drawn in close alliance to the magic of the North?   I'm trying to summon up reasons Starks reward their people?   They seem to be loyal employers and staunch friends and decent neighbors, but I don't recall any actual reward unless accompanying Ned to Kings Landing was a reward?

I am more and more drawn to the idea that Longclaw was originally given to the Mormonts at or beyond the Wall- the mythic parallel to Jeor giving it to Jon is just to delicious to ignore. If it is Ice, this means that Ice is VS and not a different type of Sword and a different type of magic  altogether as Dawn seems to be, I think the best explanation might be getting it from Night's King because that would also explain why the Starks never attempted to retrieve it AND would avoid speaking plainly of its loss. The only real problem that I see right now with that is would the ertswhile Stark still be able to wield Ice after he is presumably changed into something more like an Other? Maybe he was immune or just really careful? 

Perhaps because the Crannogmen are so close to the magic of the North they had little interest in the magic of the Land of Always Summer? As for rewards, Ned surely had reason to reward Howland handsomely, and as much reason to want to buy his silence if he thought that way. Beyond protection, which their swamps seem to offer already, I'm not sure what the Crannogmen in general and the Reeds in particular buy with their loyalty- they certainly aren't rich but I think their oaths run deep and are more valuable to them than gold.

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What would you have done with Lady Hornwood and her inheritance?  Still we know there was discontent in the North and it was the place where some of the worst blind prejudice indeed horrifying awful things were practiced in all Westeros.  Something is way off up North.  I think there are generational debts to this pact. 

Debts that I think the Starks may have forgotten to their sorrow. They have become civilized, and think that "Winter is Coming" is a warning not a threat. Blood in the snow, entrails in the trees, and that's just the Old Gods. I think the Starks probably mixed blood with the Others at some point, or made oaths- if Ice is not, in fact VS, than this is where I think it originally came from.

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How does that fit in with what Craster did?  First Night, flaying, dead kings in crypts built beneath the place where people live, Ramsay, the Weeper, Varamyr.  How would you compare that with what goes on in say Kings Landing? 

In King's Landing they sacrifice children to Starvation and to worse gods than that. Indifference and greed or cruelty and desperation, pick your poison I suppose.

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I haven't done a search but I don't recall Ned mentioning the Mormonts.   We see them more in person than second hand.  That's odd too.  

How did Jorah end up becoming a knight? I don't remember any explanation being offered but I could have forgotten.

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19 minutes ago, hiemal said:

How did Jorah end up becoming a knight? I don't remember any explanation being offered but I could have forgotten.

"The final battle was on Pyke. When Robert's stonethrowers opened a breach in King Balon's wall, a priest from Myr was the first man through, but I was not far behind. For that I won my knighthood."

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7 minutes ago, hiemal said:

I am more and more drawn to the idea that Longclaw was originally given to the Mormonts and the Wall- the mythic parallel to Jeor giving it to Jon is just to delicious to ignore. If it is Ice, this means that Ice is VS and not a different type of Sword and a type of magic  altogether as Dawn seems to be, I think the best explaination might be getting it from Night's King because that would also explain why the Starks never attempted to retrieve it AND would avoid speaking plainly if its loss. The only real problem that I see right now with that is would the ertswhile Stark still be able to wield ice after he is presumably changed into something more like an Other. Maybe he was immune or just really careful? 

Perhaps because the Crannogmen are so close to the magic of the North they had little interest in the magic of the Land of Always Summer? As for rewards, Ned surely had reason to reward Howland handsomely, and as much reason to want to buy his silence if he thought that way. Beyond protection, which their swamps seem to offer already, I'm not sure what the Crannogmen in general and the Reeds in particular buy with their loyalty- they certainly aren't rich but I think their oaths run deep and are more valuable to them than gold.

Debts that I think the Starks may have forgotten to their sorrow. They have become civilized, and think that "Winter is Coming" is a warning not a threat. Blood in the snow, entrails in the trees, and that's just the Old Gods. I think the Starks probably mixed blood with the Others at some point, or made oaths- if Ice is not, in fact VS, that this is where I think it originally came from.

In King's Landing they sacrifice children to Starvation and to worse gods than that. Indifference and greed or cruelty and desperation, pick your poison I suppose.

How did Jorah end up becoming a knight? I don't remember any explanation being offered but I could have forgotten.

I am inclined to think there is some "blood" (for lack of a better word) between the magic of ice and the Starks.  It makes absolute perfect sense for the magic of fire and the Targs--why not?  I would normally try to categorize the magics of the North but in the end I am sure they are all just parts of the same one whole.  I see the connection between the Crannogmen and the COTF.  We are told the two are suspected of interbreeding and there is no denying the strange connectedness Meera and Jojen share with the natural and esoteric worlds around them.  They are very different.  Jojen is even a magical being and I feel cheated for not reading his exchanges with the COTF in the cave.  Somehow I think he would get them a lot better than Bran does.  All we get is a sulky teenager at the mouth of a cave.  Jojen's detachment from the company tells me he may not want to interact with the COTF.  For all we know "this is not the day I die" may be from a prophecy the Children or Crannogs by extension have in their own reckonings of history.   Again, maybe a pact condition for sacrifice even from the people the Children may love.    Your post has me thinking in terms of payment due and cycles.  Wow.  So sure, I can go with you to LC maybe being Ice.   It wouldn't be Valyrian Steel so much as genuine Dragon Steel, a gift from the Children and trophy of triumph against the Others.  I don't know, but it tickles.   Winter Is Coming does seem to have lost some solemn gravity, though I think Arya gets it.  It's much more than vengeance, it is devastation.  A promise of obliteration.  I'm not certain all the Starks have lost touch with their roots and responsibilities.  Remember that bit about Lady Dustin possibly marrying Ned after it was discovered Brandon was to marry Catelyn?  I thought about that.  Lady D believes Cat stole both her Stark men.  It's obvious Rickard was a fairly progressive thinking intelligent man.  His southron ambitions were a good plan.   If the Pact obliges families of the warriors who fought against the Others in the Long Night Rickard would have already set Benjen aside for the NW.   I'm basing this on Waymar being a third son.   Rickard would be smart enough to marry his second son to a powerful northern house to maintain alliances.   I think Barbarey is telling the truth.  Ned was supposed to marry her.   I wonder if the Wall was in Rickon's cards.  

You're right we only have Jorah's account of his knighthood.  Knights are so not a thing in the North.  He was on the knighthood path before he met Lynesse, so she wasn't the motivator.  He was already a widow twice over.  Could this knighthood have come at someone like Rickard Stark's suggestion?  

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23 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

"The final battle was on Pyke. When Robert's stonethrowers opened a breach in King Balon's wall, a priest from Myr was the first man through, but I was not far behind. For that I won my knighthood."

I should have stopped when I saw you replied.   Very good and thanks.  

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39 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

"The final battle was on Pyke. When Robert's stonethrowers opened a breach in King Balon's wall, a priest from Myr was the first man through, but I was not far behind. For that I won my knighthood."

Ah yes- and I just read that again not too recently. The question then becomes, is it usual for someone from outside the chivalric tradition to be so honored and normal to accept such an accolade. Or was he raised in the tradition, perhaps fostered at White Harbor or further South?

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40 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I am inclined to think there is some "blood" (for lack of a better word) between the magic of ice and the Starks.  It makes absolute perfect sense for the magic of fire and the Targs--why not?  I would normally try to categorize the magics of the North but in the end I am sure they are all just parts of the same one whole. 

In a sense, yes, but I think it is the differences that are critical. If I am right, then all systems of magic are based of an original model (probably either the CotF's or the Deep One's) that has been changed slightly to new laws and new effects. We can focus on Ice and Fire because that's the Song, but the backbeat is Earth and Water.

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I see the connection between the Crannogmen and the COTF.  We are told the two are suspected of interbreeding and there is no denying the strange connectedness Meera and Jojen share with the natural and esoteric worlds around them.  They are very different.  Jojen is even a magical being and I feel cheated for not reading his exchanges with the COTF in the cave.  Somehow I think he would get them a lot better than Bran does.  All we get is a sulky teenager at the mouth of a cave.  Jojen's detachment from the company tells me he may not want to interact with the COTF.  For all we know "this is not the day I die" may be from a prophecy the Children or Crannogs by extension have in their own reckonings of history.   Again, maybe a pact condition for sacrifice even from the people the Children may love.    Your post has me thinking in terms of payment due and cycles.  Wow.  So sure, I can go with you to LC maybe being Ice.   It wouldn't be Valyrian Steel so much as genuine Dragon Steel, a gift from the Children and trophy of triumph against the Others.  I don't know, but it tickles.

Dragonsteel. would that be the Great Empire of the Dawn equivalent to VS? If so, I think I was more or less using the terms interchangeably, which, if it is right must be basically true since no one who has seen Longclaw has reported it as being substantially different from other VS. There couldn't have been many Dragonsteel blades floating around Westeros at that time.

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Winter Is Coming does seem to have lost some solemn gravity, though I think Arya gets it.  It's much more than vengeance, it is devastation.  A promise of obliteration.  I'm not certain all the Starks have lost touch with their roots and responsibilities.  Remember that bit about Lady Dustin possibly marrying Ned after it was discovered Brandon was to marry Catelyn?  I thought about that.  Lady D believes Cat stole both her Stark men.  It's obvious Rickard was a fairly progressive thinking intelligent man.  His southron ambitions were a good plan.   If the Pact obliges families of the warriors who fought against the Others in the Long Night Rickard would have already set Benjen aside for the NW.   I'm basing this on Waymar being a third son.   Rickard would be smart enough to marry his second son to a powerful northern house to maintain alliances.   I think Barbarey is telling the truth.  Ned was supposed to marry her.   I wonder if the Wall was in Rickon's card

Only if Shaggydog is dead, I think.

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33 minutes ago, hiemal said:

In a sense, yes, but I think it is the differences that are critical. If I am right, then all systems of magic are based of an original model (probably either the CotF's or the Deep One's) that has been changed slightly to new laws and new effects. We can focus on Ice and Fire because that's the Song, but the backbeat is Earth and Water.

Dragonsteel. would that be the Great Empire of the Dawn equivalent to VS? If so, I think I was more or less using the terms interchangeably, which, if it is right must be basically true since no one who has seen Longclaw has reported it as being substantially different from other VS. There couldn't have been many Dragonsteel blades floating around Westeros at that time.

Only if Shaggydog is dead, I think.

I understand a little about your elemental thinking, but I would be interested to learn more about this thinking specific to the North.  I see earth and I see ice.  We see the remnants of fire in great uncontrollable power.  We hear about water and there is potential there.  Elemental magic is powerful here and may tell a story about the heroes and villains of each place.  The Doom was huge still the Long Night was a global event.  Ice is gaining traction.  If fire can cause amazing things--dragon riders, Valyrian Steel, prophetic dreams--it stands to reason that there would be corresponding features to earth and ice and water magic manifestations in the people who represent the elements. 

I am not sure Dragon Steel goes back that far unless Dawn is considered Dragon Steel.  So far from the time the words Dragon Steel were written, it's hard to know when it appeared. I think we can safely put the term Dragon Steel down as an Andal term as the Andals seem to be the first really literate people in Westeros.   The 1st Men used runes.  We can't know if Dragon Steel was an Andal convention for conveying the meaning of literal translation from runes or if it is an entirely Andal concept having little to do with the actual meaning.  Dawn is old enough to have been conceived and fashioned  after something very GEOTD.  But is it really Dragon Steel?  What if this Dragon Steel is no more than reenforced glass?  We can't know for sure that Valyrian Steel isn't a sort of copy or refinement of Dragon Steel, but we can be certain that Dragon Steel is not Valyrian Steel.  If Longclaw is dragon steel it is really other among the swords.  And I think you're right about the availability of Dragon Steel.   I think there was only one sword and many gifts of Dragon glass and that unknowable intercession the COTF did on behalf of TLH.  Unless you've got a better scenario I imagine the COTF got or made Dragon Glass specifically for the occasion of the Long Night.  They knew what the Others' weakness is.  All that is certain is Sam and Jon both reach the immediate conclusion that Dragon Steel is Valyrian Steel.  I think it's safe to bet that VS is in someway based upon DS.  Wouldn't it be something if DS and VS were some throwback to a celestial blade like Dawn?  

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1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

I understand a little about your elemental thinking, but I would be interested to learn more about this thinking specific to the North.  I see earth and I see ice.  We see the remnants of fire in great uncontrollable power.  We hear about water and there is potential there.  Elemental magic is powerful here and may tell a story about the heroes and villains of each place.  The Doom was huge still the Long Night was a global event.  Ice is gaining traction.  If fire can cause amazing things--dragon riders, Valyrian Steel, prophetic dreams--it stands to reason that there would be corresponding features to earth and ice and water magic manifestations in the people who represent the elements.

So I think that trying to break everything down by elements is probably oversimplifying or at least potentially misleading but in the North we would have:

1. The Old Gods and the CotF. I link them with earth- the weirwood roots, the hollow hills, some form of power over earthquakes/raising and sinking large areas of land. It's impossible to know how much of the "history" is meant to be genuine and how much legend but it came to earlier, that maybe if greenseers could warg firewyrms maybe that was how they accomplished these feats (and maybe brought about the Doom?).

2. The Drowned God. We know almost nothing about him, but that doesn't mean I don't tinfoil. I believe the DG may be a grove of weirwoods that was sent to the bottom of the ocean by the CotF and then corrupted by Deep Ones. The Deep Ones influence the Ironborn through the Seastone chair and possibly by gifts of weirwood driftwood for the Drowned Men. Total HP Lovecraft vibe from the whole deal and I'm pretty sure Euron is in their pocket and maybe Patchface? He's in the wrong corner of Westeros so maybe there are other Drowned Groves? I think there is a distinction between Deep Ones and merlings, however, and Patchface is something else.

3. The Great Other. So, probably Ice but Melisandre also links him with darkness and death. Pick a lane, buddy.

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I am not sure Dragon Steel goes back that far unless Dawn is considered Dragon Steel.  So far from the time the words Dragon Steel were written, it's hard to know when it appeared. I think we can safely put the term Dragon Steel down as an Andal term as the Andals seem to be the first really literate people in Westeros.   The 1st Men used runes.  We can't know if Dragon Steel was an Andal convention for conveying the meaning of literal translation from runes or if it is an entirely Andal concept having little to do with the actual meaning.  Dawn is old enough to have been conceived and fashioned  after something very GEOTD.  But is it really Dragon Steel?  What if this Dragon Steel is no more than reenforced glass?  We can't know for sure that Valyrian Steel isn't a sort of copy or refinement of Dragon Steel, but we can be certain that Dragon Steel is not Valyrian Steel.  If Longclaw is dragon steel it is really other among the swords.  And I think you're right about the availability of Dragon Steel.   I think there was only one sword and many gifts of Dragon glass and that unknowable intercession the COTF did on behalf of TLH.  Unless you've got a better scenario I imagine the COTF got or made Dragon Glass specifically for the occasion of the Long Night.  They knew what the Others' weakness is.  All that is certain is Sam and Jon both reach the immediate conclusion that Dragon Steel is Valyrian Steel.  I think it's safe to bet that VS is in someway based upon DS. 

Dawn seems to be of a completely different substance from anything we have encountered so far. It's too different, it sticks out too much to be compared with Longclaw or any other blade we've heard of.

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Wouldn't it be something if DS and VS were some throwback to a celestial blade like Dawn?  

That's more or less my working assumption. There's only one Dawn and hundreds of Swords. Nightfall might be its counterpart in name, but if it has an opposite in substance it must be Ice (and only if Ice is of a substance created by the Others and not of Dragonsteel).

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7 hours ago, hiemal said:

Dawn seems to be of a completely different substance from anything we have encountered so far. It's too different, it sticks out too much to be compared with Longclaw or any other blade we've heard of.

Dawn is an incomparable sword, but its description of being pale as milkglass is used two other times in the text. It is used to describe the ghost grass and the bones of the Others. I think this is where the connection is.

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1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Dawn is an incomparable sword, but its description of being pale as milkglass is used two other times in the text. It is used to describe the ghost grass and the bones of the Others. I think this is where the connection is.

Which brings us the to the possibility that Dawn could be Ice reclaimed. I call that "From a fallen Star(k)".  "Battle for the Dawn", Symeon Star(k)-Eyes, Hellhounds at the Nightfort and all that.

 

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18 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I don't think any of the Valyrian swords are "good" magic. They were made with slave labor.

Given what we know of the Valyrians I think it was more than slave labor. Hint hint, blood magic is the most powerful kind of magic.

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16 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

What a beautiful thing to come back to Westeros and immediately be greeted by a topic such as this one! I am lucky to have such friends.

The OP intrigues me. I think I follow and agree that Longclaw seems out of place in the group. Nothing is a coincidence, at least not after ten years. I love to find new topics to obsess over.

Premises we definitely agree on: the swords are magical; they will be wielded by important people (heroes?); their names and histories matter.

I find it curious that, when Jon asks if the sword has a name, Mormont tells him “it had once”. Why is that? It feels significant to me, but I may be seeing something that’s not there.

The nod @hiemal made to the totemistic nature of Longclaw really spoke to me. I think he nailed something important. The religion of old gods is based on animism, the belief that objects, places, creatures all possess a distinct spiritual essence. So all this swords connected to different times of the day (dawn and nightfall) and elements (rain and fire) and feelings (lamentation, forlorn) and even people (orphan, widow), each of them must have their own spiritual essences, let’s call it… their own magic?

Bears and wolves have claws, Jon notices. I suppose, Jeor answers. Longclaw is the only sword that has an animalistic quality to it. This sword’s spiritual essence, or magic, is of animal origin and that’s quite unique.

That got me thinking about claws. What I wanted to add to this interesting and compelling thread regards claws.

The very first time “claw” comes up at all in the books is in Jon II. Jon defies Catelyn Stark to say goodbye to a comatose Bran before leaving for the Wall. This is it: She was holding one of his hands. It looked like a claw. This was not the Bran he remembered. The flesh had all gone from him. His skin stretched tight over bones like sticks.

So Bran, the kid with the magic destiny who will become very much raven-like in the future, has hands like claws, and this is the first time ever the word shows up. Ravens and crows have claws, too. Mormont’s raven (Bloodraven?) even repeats “claw, claw” after Mormont says the sword’s name for the first time.

Another passage sprung to my eyes, one that I feels first connects claws and swords before Jon gets his. This is Arya III: The Red Keep was full of cats: lazy old cats dozing in the sun, cold-eyed mousers twitching their tails, quick little kittens with claws like needles, ladies' cats all combed and trusting, ragged shadows prowling the midden heaps.

Needle is Arya’s sword, and she likens the claws of “quick little kittens” (the ones she’ll favor and emulate later on in the story) to needles i.e. swords.

There are other instances where claws might be significant, like when Ned has a dream of Rhaegar crowning Lyanna and he reaches for the flowery crown but the hidden thorns claw at his hands and spill his blood. This crowning is the point of no return that sets the whole story in motion, and this crawn has claws in Eddard Stark’s mind.  Food for thought, I say. But now comes my favorite excerpt:

Clash of King, Bran VII. We are inside Summer’s mind. He padded over dry needles and brown leaves, to the edge of the wood where the pines grew thin. Beyond the open fields he could see the great piles of man-rock stark against the swirling flames. The wind blew hot and rich with the smell of blood and burnt meat, so strong he began to slaver. Yet as one smell drew them onward, others warned them back. He sniffed at the drifting smoke. Men, many men, many horses, and fire, fire, fire. No smell was more dangerous, not even the hard cold smell of iron, the stuff of man-claws and hardskin.

The wolf calls all and every sword man-claws. Jon calls this one swords a wolf’s claw.

Lady Welcome!  It's been too long and I have missed you in our shared fantasy here.  I saw you reacting last night and did not realize you replied.  I saw @Alyn Oakenfist replies do a few strange things while in topic, but to miss an entire epic post like this?   I'm so sorry.   

Yes I have to agree with your reaction to @hiemal's associating the name Longclaw to the totemism of animalism.  It fits so well and as you can see, is actually pretty telling about this odd unmatched sword.  The possibility that LC may not be VS at all is fascinating and not at all where I intended to go with the OP.  I hadn't even thought of LC being anything but a VS sword until I was replying to one of heimal's posts.   He does have that affect, though, doesn't he?   

Now my excellent Lady, you bring claw text in to deepen the mystery and provide a breadcrumb trail.  You've associated Bran and Arya to this sword.  What does it mean?   Of course I'm immediately jumping to the conclusion that the COTF provided the sword we know as Longclaw to the Last Hero.  We can't possibly know that.   All we've got is the brief missive in TWIAF Ancient History which offers:  

How the Long Night came to an end is a matter of legend, as all such matters of the distant past have become. In the North, they tell of a last hero who sought out the intercession of the children of the forest,    The Long Night

Sam tells us all about reading the COTF provided TLH with weapons but only goes as far as to mention Dragon Glass.  We learn early on in AGOT that ancestral Ice was lost to House Stark long ago.  You cite Jeor Mormont himself being very sketchy about the name of "the sword".  Hiemal introduces the concept of LC being ancestral Ice which is a very tidy way of realistically placing such a valuable thing in the hands of a modest house.  And yah, I'm thinking Bear Island itself is a very important place between the veils of magic in the North.  As I try to explain how or why Ice would leave Stark hands all I come up with is House Mormont is a sort of steward between the Starks and the COTF.  I don't know, Lady--can you devise a more plausible reason for a remote House with no real history would have a sword the Lannisters paid the going rate for an army in gold for?   

All I can do at this point is wonder at the possibilities here that I've never thought of before.   I know you are judicious in your choice of text and appreciate your good and topical choices drawing clear correlation between a part of Longclaw's name.  You are more symbolism savvy than I could ever hope to be.  Is this claw tie in to a sword with an unmatched presence among clearly magic swords?  Honestly, I love all this conversation and possibility and even support.   Not trying to sell anyone on anything.  This is just pretty cool to bounce off each other.  I'm so glad you stopped here with us.  

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3 hours ago, hiemal said:

Which brings us the to the possibility that Dawn could be Ice reclaimed. I call that "From a fallen Star(k)".  "Battle for the Dawn", Symeon Star(k)-Eyes, Hellhounds at the Nightfort and all that.

I said in my first post in this thread that I think that the original Ice, Dawn, Lightbringer were one and the same. I think it's the same sword that is called three different things in different places, like the Last Hero, AA and the PtwP. 

About Symeon Star-Eyes, you also have Brandon Ice Eyes much later.

@Curled Finger, you also have the Just Maid, which belonged to Galladon of Morne. The Just Maid is straight up enchanted per Brienne's story. Florian the Fool also bore a famous sword, but we don't know the name. 

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11 hours ago, hiemal said:

So I think that trying to break everything down by elements is probably oversimplifying or at least potentially misleading but in the North we would have:

1. The Old Gods and the CotF. I link them with earth- the weirwood roots, the hollow hills, some form of power over earthquakes/raising and sinking large areas of land. It's impossible to know how much of the "history" is meant to be genuine and how much legend but it came to earlier, that maybe if greenseers could warg firewyrms maybe that was how they accomplished these feats (and maybe brought about the Doom?).

2. The Drowned God. We know almost nothing about him, but that doesn't mean I don't tinfoil. I believe the DG may be a grove of weirwoods that was sent to the bottom of the ocean by the CotF and then corrupted by Deep Ones. The Deep Ones influence the Ironborn through the Seastone chair and possibly by gifts of weirwood driftwood for the Drowned Men. Total HP Lovecraft vibe from the whole deal and I'm pretty sure Euron is in their pocket and maybe Patchface? He's in the wrong corner of Westeros so maybe there are other Drowned Groves? I think there is a distinction between Deep Ones and merlings, however, and Patchface is something else.

3. The Great Other. So, probably Ice but Melisandre also links him with darkness and death. Pick a lane, buddy.

Dawn seems to be of a completely different substance from anything we have encountered so far. It's too different, it sticks out too much to be compared with Longclaw or any other blade we've heard of.

That's more or less my working assumption. There's only one Dawn and hundreds of Swords. Nightfall might be its counterpart in name, but if it has an opposite in substance it must be Ice (and only if Ice is of a substance created by the Others and not of Dragonsteel).

Thank you for the refresher crib notes on where the elements are integral to a tale that only appears to rest in the importance of two.  A whole lot of influence, history and magic in those sacred places.  Force that withstands time.  Magic.  And you know I love a good list to reference, so thanks again.  I think you've got better formed ideas about the Longclaw story and I know you have examined the legends and histories of Westeros.  This is great stuff and allows us to re-examine magic for the sake of fantasy magic without going over the top or improbable.   

Yah, I've tried to apply my own little bit of celestial body chasing and meteor crash sites in our own world to the events that led the Dayne to Starfall.   There is some real poetry in this wording.  Is it me or does this particular legend read a bit like destiny?  It's been my experience that following stars leads to exceptional er after effects on the chaser.  Dawn and Starfall are truly exceptional having fallen from the sky.  The Dayne ancestral title Sword of the Morning sings in harmony with the tale of the Last Hero.  Then we get not just a Night King, but a Sword of the Evening as well!  Why, that matches both stories up doesn't it?  Bleeding legend happens in our own world, no reason it would not be the same in Martin's universe.  Dawn really is too different to be Valyrian Steel. 

55 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yeah, Valyrian swords are the blood diamonds of Westeros. 

Which smacks of curse or transgression somehow.  Still, I have no doubt Valyrian Steel will be effective against the Others.  They wouldn't be the final turn of the magical sword key since we know and suspect there is a 13th or maybe final sword after the 12 are broken is a better way of signifying the importance a sword with a name Dawn or Lightbringer.  I don't know, maybe you have to plunge it in frozen rock or some crazy thing to start healing of the land.   Would simply vanquishing the Others straighten the seasons out?  How would that work?  Oh am I really liking that a sword such as Dawn or at least what it represents is for a different next level use.   It isn't tainted by the poison of this place and is employed for a calling higher than killing.   That's very cool.   

I have never been a huge fan of hidden identities in our epic tale of thousands.  I have mostly read that Longclaw is Blackfyre or Dawn is the real Ice in the topics I've hosted.  I think the characters are who we are supposed to think they are.  Knowing an identity like Richard Lonmouth/Lem Lemmoncloak doesn't tell me a lot about the character I am reading contemporarily.   It's offputting to listen to the Jon Connington chapters as he really does seem to be two different people and we actually hear it.   Yah, I can see where I allow some of my understanding of the depth of a character or in this case, thing, being cheated in not bothering to really look at it.  

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5 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I said in my first post in this thread that I think that the original Ice, Dawn, Lightbringer were one and the same. I think it's the same sword that is called three different things in different places, like the Last Hero, AA and the PtwP. 

About Symeon Star-Eyes, you also have Brandon Ice Eyes much later.

You absolutely did call the Ice/Dawn/Lightbringer trinity in the air at the first.   I hadn't even actually considered these swords along side the three renown heroes of legend.   It's perfect matching, really.  Have you given any thought to how the swords were paired?  We know AA had Lightbringer, so the Prince That Was Promised would have wielded Dawn and TLH would have held Ice.   I have never broken that down before.   Wow.  A new door just opened.  Elaborate if you will!   

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