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Fitting Longclaw Among Magic Swords


Curled Finger

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48 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I said in my first post in this thread that I think that the original Ice, Dawn, Lightbringer were one and the same. I think it's the same sword that is called three different things in different places, like the Last Hero, AA and the PtwP.

I've kicked that idea around, too- because as much as I love an abundance tinfoil I love connecting the dots and simplifying the complex more. I love the idea, because it also brings in the "Rule of Three" that seems so prevalent.

At the same time I'm semi-convinced that Lightbringer itself refers either exclusively or primarily to dragonriding rather than a physical sword.

I'd give even money on LH, AA, and PtwP being one or three or two. I'm that unsure about it. I suppose I'd probably come down with Azor Ahai=Bloodstone Emperor/LB=PtwP/LH being either a Stark or a Dayne as most likely but ask again when I favor different tinfoils and get a different answer.

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About Symeon Star-Eyes, you also have Brandon Ice Eyes much later.

Suggestive, no? I nominate Symeon Last Hero and Night's King.

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40 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Thank you for the refresher crib notes on where the elements are integral to a tale that only appears to rest in the importance of two.  A whole lot of influence, history and magic in those sacred places.  Force that withstands time.  Magic.  And you know I love a good list to reference, so thanks again.  I think you've got better formed ideas about the Longclaw story and I know you have examined the legends and histories of Westeros.  This is great stuff and allows us to re-examine magic for the sake of fantasy magic without going over the top or improbable.  

I don't want to derail the thread but more if you get a hankerin'. It's closed now but it has more of my semi-coherent spitball attempts at grappling with magic in general:

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Yah, I've tried to apply my own little bit of celestial body chasing and meteor crash sites in our own world to the events that led the Dayne to Starfall.   There is some real poetry in this wording.  Is it me or does this particular legend read a bit like destiny?  It's been my experience that following stars leads to exceptional er after effects on the chaser.  Dawn and Starfall are truly exceptional having fallen from the sky.  The Dayne ancestral title Sword of the Morning sings in harmony with the tale of the Last Hero.  Then we get not just a Night King, but a Sword of the Evening as well!  Why, that matches both stories up doesn't it?  Bleeding legend happens in our own world, no reason it would not be the same in Martin's universe.  Dawn really is too different to be Valyrian Steel. 

Or at least, that's the story. It has such mythic qualities that it is hard to question it, but at the same time GRRM loves to defy expectation.

Dawn and Starfall feel to me like Excalibur- which is a big red flag given how the game of chivalry is played out here, Also, a holy sword without a holy grail is... unbalanced? With no original sin, there is no virgin birth- thus the broken vessels of dead mothers and a sword with no grail. Unless the grail is Night's Queen, but that's going way out in the weeds for a thread on Longclaw...

Also... Starfall/Starkfall and Ashara's suicide and Ned's returning Dawn. Hmmmm

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4 minutes ago, hiemal said:

I don't want to derail the thread but more if you get a hankerin'. It's closed now but it has more of my semi-coherent spitball attempts at grappling with magic in general:

Or at least, that's the story. It has such mythic qualities that it is hard to question it, but at the same time GRRM loves to defy expectation.

Dawn and Starfall feel to me like Excalibur- which is a big red flag given how the game of chivalry is played out here, Also, a holy sword without a holy grail is... unbalanced? With no original sin, there is no virgin birth- thus the broken vessels of dead mothers and a sword with no grail. Unless the grail is Night's Queen, but that's going way out in the weeds for a thread on Longclaw...

Also... Starfall/Starkfall and Ashara's suicide and Ned's returning Dawn. Hmmmm

Ha!  I  can't imagine anyone wouldn't enjoy an expanded peek into your musings.  Thank you for the link.  

You and I are on a similar wavelength with Starfall and Dawn and grails.  I have seen the name Starfall equated with Ashara Dayne's reported suicide, but the Ned twist is new.  Clever.   Jon Snow and at least Arthur Dayne and Brienne of Tarth have such Arthurian overtones to their stories, it's hard not to anticipate a grail with each of them.  Or from them.  I'm still stumped on NQ in direct relation to a grail unless she is the mother of Monsters?  Yah a lot of NK/NQ stuff still goes right over my head.  I am beginning to wonder along the lines of Dawn/Ice/Lightbringer being a sword of peace like King Authur's Caliburn.  This sword isn't meant for Others killing, it's something else this sword should do.  The images in my mind keep flashing on King Arthur pulling Caliburn from the stone.  Perhaps the 13th sword will be a key of sorts--maybe not that, but something final.  To unlock or seal something, to set the spinning axis right?  I don't know, but I can see Jon Snow wielding a sword for peace.  Who knows?  Maybe an act like saving the world could get the Nights Watch some appreciation for a change.  

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48 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Ha!  I  can't imagine anyone wouldn't enjoy an expanded peek into your musings.  Thank you for the link.  

You and I are on a similar wavelength with Starfall and Dawn and grails.  I have seen the name Starfall equated with Ashara Dayne's reported suicide, but the Ned twist is new.  Clever.   Jon Snow and at least Arthur Dayne and Brienne of Tarth have such Arthurian overtones to their stories, it's hard not to anticipate a grail with each of them.  Or from them.

Right? Also Robert/Cersie/Jaimie as Arthur/Guinevere/Lancelot, Florian/Percival, etc. All we have are broken grails/dead mothers. If Dawn is a true (not produced by means of whatever abominations produce VS) excalibur than we should we have a true grail? LB is the anti-excalibur.

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I'm still stumped on NQ in direct relation to a grail unless she is the mother of Monsters?

Exactly. the Unholy Grail. The Dagda's grail that brings back the dead. The Power that allows the Others the create and control wights.

I think this happened when the Amethyst Empress died in childbirth and came back as Night's Queen but that's some pretty heavy speculation, tinfoil, and maybe even a little bullshit but it is an answer.

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I am beginning to wonder along the lines of Dawn/Ice/Lightbringer being a sword of peace like King Authur's Caliburn.  This sword isn't meant for Others killing, it's something else this sword should do.  The images in my mind keep flashing on King Arthur pulling Caliburn from the stone.  Perhaps the 13th sword will be a key of sorts--maybe not that, but something final.  To unlock or seal something, to set the spinning axis right?  I don't know, but I can see Jon Snow wielding a sword for peace.  Who knows?  Maybe an act like saving the world could get the Nights Watch some appreciation for a change.  

How much talk about swords is really about lineages and breeding and the heirs of prophecy and how much is about actual pieces of metal? Or is it both at the same time? Trying to get the proper sword to the proper hero at the proper time?

 

 

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2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

You absolutely did call the Ice/Dawn/Lightbringer trinity in the air at the first.   I hadn't even actually considered these swords along side the three renown heroes of legend.   It's perfect matching, really.  Have you given any thought to how the swords were paired?  We know AA had Lightbringer, so the Prince That Was Promised would have wielded Dawn and TLH would have held Ice.   I have never broken that down before.   Wow.  A new door just opened.  Elaborate if you will!   

For the record, I think that Ice/Dawn/Lightbringer are the same and I think that AA/PtwP/Last hero are one person. Dawn being described with the same words that are used to describe the bones of the Others is important. Furthermore, when we look at the swords of the Others, they are extremely sharp, and they have a faint blue glow to them. Dawn is alive with light.

I can't really elaborate much more because I never really thought about.

I think there's good stuff in the World Book about Huzhor Amai and his three wives. Huzhor Amai was the son of the last of the Fisher Queens. The FQ sounds a lot like they could be greenseers or a version of that at the very least.   

Old Nan's story about the Last Hero tells us that the Last Hero and his companions went in search of the children of the forest for their assistance. If the Long Night began in Essos, then AA would have sough after the Ifequevron who sound like the Essosi version of the children. 

These are just a few possible parallels between AA/Last Hero. If AA and the Last Hero are the same person, then they would have wielded the same sword, the same sword that is mentioned in the Night's Watch vows. The sword in the darkness, the light that brings the dawn.

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1 hour ago, hiemal said:

Right? Also Robert/Cersie/Jaimie as Arthur/Guinevere/Lancelot, Florian/Percival, etc. All we have are broken grails/dead mothers. If Dawn is a true (not produced by means of whatever abominations produce VS) excalibur than we should we have a true grail? LB is the anti-excalibur.

Exactly. the Unholy Grail. The Dagda's grail that brings back the dead. The Power that allows the Others the create and control wights.

I think this happened when the Amethyst Empress died in childbirth and came back as Night's Queen but that's some pretty heavy speculation, tinfoil, and maybe even a little bullshit but it is an answer.

How much talk about swords is really about lineages and breeding and the heirs of prophecy and how much is about actual pieces of metal? Or is it both at the same time? Trying to get the proper sword to the proper hero at the proper time?

Note to self:  Wiki Dagda, this will be good.  

Can't resist the Arthurian flow, let me bleed a little.  Brienne as Galahad and Galladon.  And if Dawn is set apart from the powerful magical VS swords it has to be different for a reason.   Arthur had 2 swords, 1 he pulled from stone and the other a gift from the Lady in the Lake--ha, lookee that, a gift even.  Whether the first sword is Caliburn or Clarent, it seems to be a sword of peace where Excalibur was definitely for kicking asses.  Anti-Excalibur indeed!  

Ok, that's what I thought you did with that terrible possible correlation between NQ & AP.  Tinfoil can be fun and there is no denying it is an answer.  

I think you hit the nail on the head in the last bit.  For me at least as this is how my sword questing has fallen.  Are the swords a reflection of the house they belong to or are they some Valyrian fire demon holder designed for nothing beyond melting, smashing and annihilating Others?  Does it matter if they do the trick?  I spend a considerable amount of time matching our swords to heroes and you see I've already categorized Longclaw as an Oathbreaker's sword.  (Which fits with LC=Ice in the event of safekeeping in the aftermath of the NK event.)  Only really close to married to this idea, but I like to think I'm open to ideas and willing to be wrong for the sake of ending at truth.  I've had Jon matched with Blackfyre for at least a few years now.  As this discussion unfolds I know I need to reexamine this and the character I believe would wield Longclaw in the battle.  I'm careful about these things because it takes a long time to reach some of these near conclusions.   That's the long way of saying that at least I think proper sword to hero pairings are important.  Again, doesn't make it so to anyone else.  

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1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

For the record, I think that Ice/Dawn/Lightbringer are the same and I think that AA/PtwP/Last hero are one person. Dawn being described with the same words that are used to describe the bones of the Others is important. Furthermore, when we look at the swords of the Others, they are extremely sharp, and they have a faint blue glow to them. Dawn is alive with light.

I can't really elaborate much more because I never really thought about.

I think there's good stuff in the World Book about Huzhor Amai and his three wives. Huzhor Amai was the son of the last of the Fisher Queens. The FQ sounds a lot like they could be greenseers or a version of that at the very least.   

Old Nan's story about the Last Hero tells us that the Last Hero and his companions went in search of the children of the forest for their assistance. If the Long Night began in Essos, then AA would have sough after the Ifequevron who sound like the Essosi version of the children. 

These are just a few possible parallels between AA/Last Hero. If AA and the Last Hero are the same person, then they would have wielded the same sword, the same sword that is mentioned in the Night's Watch vows. The sword in the darkness, the light that brings the dawn.

Hrm.  While I can stay with your reasoning all the way through, I have a stake in the first bit.  If Dawn and Ice are the same neither of them can be Ice or Lightbringer and that screws up my sacred math.   The text  you brought up in relation to the description we have of Dawn are crucially important.  I'm not trying to sell Longclaw as anything other than Longclaw though it becomes increasingly clearer to me that LC doesn't fit the VS in our inventory.  This is devastating, but not discounted.  I have 12 and 12 + 1, not 3s or 7s.  I think I can speak fairly with you here, but if I begin to veer off the path please feel free to correct me.   Again, the math is all I have to defend myself with. 

Offering up the Essosi alternative to the Long Night is quite good logic.  We don't know when anything actually happened and I've always bought into a global event that people experienced in Westeros.  I've read some hard to follow GEOTD tie in and don't have any reason not to think Westeros was unaffected by TLN experience.  I can see where different heroes from different cultures and civilizations would take some ownership in the victory.  Doesn't sound like a terrible lot of humanity kind could have survived all the Long Night gave the world.  So all the myths make a sense to me.  I think this person of prophecy was just 1 person and Dawn could easily be Lightbringer.  Ice is just so regional, but as you say, the Ifequevron may have provided the weapons.  If that's so, what do I do with all this Pact and sacrifice and wall and order of the Nights Watch?  

Really nice addition of the very important NW vows, Alexis.  That bit matters a great deal I suspect.      

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17 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm not trying to sell Longclaw as anything other than Longclaw though it becomes increasingly clearer to me that LC doesn't fit the VS in our inventory.  This is devastating, but not discounted.  I have 12 and 12 + 1, not 3s or 7s.  I think I can speak fairly with you here, but if I begin to veer off the path please feel free to correct me.   Again, the math is all I have to defend myself with. 

If it makes you feel better, there's that dream Jon has in Jon XII in ADwD. So that's a chapter before his stabbing.

Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist [. . .] The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. 

As far as I understand it, Longclaw is the blade that's burning red in his fist.
 
The sword's name is also sort of funny. Animals have claws. Bears, direwolves. Dragons.
 
Right now, as it stands, we have Dany who has fulfilled the prophecy criteria for AA. And we'll see what happens with Jon next.
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4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Note to self:  Wiki Dagda, this will be good.  

Can't resist the Arthurian flow, let me bleed a little.  Brienne as Galahad and Galladon.  And if Dawn is set apart from the powerful magical VS swords it has to be different for a reason.   Arthur had 2 swords, 1 he pulled from stone and the other a gift from the Lady in the Lake--ha, lookee that, a gift even.  Whether the first sword is Caliburn or Clarent, it seems to be a sword of peace where Excalibur was definitely for kicking asses.  Anti-Excalibur indeed!  

Ok, that's what I thought you did with that terrible possible correlation between NQ & AP.  Tinfoil can be fun and there is no denying it is an answer.  

I think you hit the nail on the head in the last bit.  For me at least as this is how my sword questing has fallen.  Are the swords a reflection of the house they belong to or are they some Valyrian fire demon holder designed for nothing beyond melting, smashing and annihilating Others?  Does it matter if they do the trick?  I spend a considerable amount of time matching our swords to heroes and you see I've already categorized Longclaw as an Oathbreaker's sword.  (Which fits with LC=Ice in the event of safekeeping in the aftermath of the NK event.) Only really close to married to this idea, but I like to think I'm open to ideas and willing to be wrong for the sake of ending at truth. I've had Jon matched with Blackfyre for at least a few years now. 

I have no firm ideas really on any of the Swords, only calculations. It does make things complicated.

Jon's updgrade: Would LC to Blackfyre be a redemption arc? Or a revelation mirroring Ned's "betrayal" of his marriage vows to Cat?

I wonder if Brienne could perhaps get a similar upgrade with Just Maid?

Hmmm, Arya replaces Needle with Dark Sister?

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As this discussion unfolds I know I need to reexamine this and the character I believe would wield Longclaw in the battle.  I'm careful about these things because it takes a long time to reach some of these near conclusions.   That's the long way of saying that at least I think proper sword to hero pairings are important.  Again, doesn't make it so to anyone else.  

It makes sense to me. And as for LC in the Final Battle... my money is on...

Rickon Stark

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3 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

If it makes you feel better, there's that dream Jon has in Jon XII in ADwD. So that's a chapter before his stabbing.

Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist [. . .] The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. 

As far as I understand it, Longclaw is the blade that's burning red in his fist.
 
The sword's name is also sort of funny. Animals have claws. Bears, direwolves. Dragons.
 
Right now, as it stands, we have Dany who has fulfilled the prophecy criteria for AA. And we'll see what happens with Jon next.

You know I bet I haven't actually looked at the complete text you provided since The Forsaken was passed around.  That Longlaw is the red sword of Jon's dream is so obvious.  How did you spot that perfectly precisely?  I usually ignore dream speak but I will damned well pay closer attention.  I remember talking with a friend about this red sword being Lightbringer--click, another comment you made about all 3 swords and heroes being the same falls into place.  It never crossed my mind that Longclaw being named in the dream was anymore than Jon's tortured sleep. 

Yes again on the name Longclaw.  I don't know if you read through all the comments, but you aren't alone picking up on the oddness, the animism in the name is beginning to glare.  Thank you for bringing another solid piece of the text to fuel the fires of my spinning imagination.      

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33 minutes ago, hiemal said:

I have no firm ideas really on any of the Swords, only calculations. It does make things complicated.

Jon's updgrade: Would LC to Blackfyre be a redemption arc? Or a revelation mirroring Ned's "betrayal" of his marriage vows to Cat?

I wonder if Brienne could perhaps get a similar upgrade with Just Maid?

Hmmm, Arya replaces Needle with Dark Sister?

It makes sense to me. And as for LC in the Final Battle... my money is on...

Rickon Stark

I'm not sure you've complicated so much as facilitated some realization with your calculations here.  You ask some really good questions about Jon and his swords.  I never thought there any hope Jon would even hang on to Longclaw.  It's sort of his job to be unworthy of it by the virtue of being an oathbreaker.  If Jon is the rightful Targaryan heir to the IT he would have to wield Blackfyre, he is the only one who could if it is a king's sword.  The thing is bigger than Dany so it doesn't blip on my radar.  I think I've always thought Blackfyre would reveal or finalize Jon's reveal.  I admit it's tidier than Martin is likely to write.  I think that's why I like to have these discussions.  

We once had discussion about Brienne's honor at Pennytree.  It ended up 21 pages of some eye opening Brienne love.  Someone posted in that topic that Brienne would actually be the personification of Just Maid.  I thought that was really pretty.  She does a good job and I like her with Oathkeeper better than a lot of my pairings.  There is symmetry in sweet good Brienne defending everyone she wants to with a sword called Oathkeeper.  Sappy.  Absolutely. 

Not enough Team Rickon around this joint.  In line with my calculations I really thought I made a believable case for Mance Rayder, fully baked in the passion I put into categorizing these damned swords.  I can't scratch my next best oath breaker off the list until I figure out what I really think about Longclaw.   Identity hidden, just like Jon.  Yah, that crazy train left the station yesterday.   Thanks, Man, I love this!

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11 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I usually ignore dream speak but I will damned well pay closer attention. 

I think this dream is especially important because Jon wakes up when a "gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder" in his dream. Jon has this tendency to wake up when he is close to getting some answers in his dreams, which is frustrating. In this case, when he wakes up, Mormont's raven pecking at his chest and there is no one else shaking him awake or anything like that. In the dream, there's an eagle screaming "Snow." Mormont's raven is probably screaming "Snow," but it appearing in the dream as an eagle is really interesting when you look up the sort of symbolism that surrounds eagles. 

The dream always read to me as being influenced by outside forces and it always felt like BR may have been reaching out to Jon in his dream, that the gnarled hand was his and like he was about to appear to him, then Jon woke up.

This dreams bookends Jon's first dream in ADwD nicely.

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16 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm not sure you've complicated so much as facilitated some realization with your calculations here.  You ask some really good questions about Jon and his swords.  I never thought there any hope Jon would even hang on to Longclaw.  It's sort of his job to be unworthy of it by the virtue of being an oathbreaker.  If Jon is the rightful Targaryan heir to the IT he would have to wield Blackfyre, he is the only one who could if it is a king's sword.  The thing is bigger than Dany so it doesn't blip on my radar.  I think I've always thought Blackfyre would reveal or finalize Jon's reveal.  I admit it's tidier than Martin is likely to write.  I think that's why I like to have these discussions.  

We once had discussion about Brienne's honor at Pennytree.  It ended up 21 pages of some eye opening Brienne love.  Someone posted in that topic that Brienne would actually be the personification of Just Maid.  I thought that was really pretty.  She does a good job and I like her with Oathkeeper better than a lot of my pairings.  There is symmetry in sweet good Brienne defending everyone she wants to with a sword called Oathkeeper.  Sappy.  Absolutely. 

Not enough Team Rickon around this joint.  In line with my calculations I really thought I made a believable case for Mance Rayder, fully baked in the passion I put into categorizing these damned swords.  I can't scratch my next best oath breaker off the list until I figure out what I really think about Longclaw.   Identity hidden, just like Jon.  Yah, that crazy train left the station yesterday.   Thanks, Man, I love this!

:D

Can't have Sword and Sorcery without some Sword lore.

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On 1/10/2021 at 6:41 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

If it makes you feel better, there's that dream Jon has in Jon XII in ADwD. So that's a chapter before his stabbing.

Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist [. . .] The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. 

As far as I understand it, Longclaw is the blade that's burning red in his fist.
 
The sword's name is also sort of funny. Animals have claws. Bears, direwolves. Dragons.
 

Lions... It was a long claw indeed that took down Robb Stark.

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"Some battles are won with swords and spears, others with quills and ravens..."

ASoS

 

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11 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think this dream is especially important because Jon wakes up when a "gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder" in his dream. Jon has this tendency to wake up when he is close to getting some answers in his dreams, which is frustrating. In this case, when he wakes up, Mormont's raven pecking at his chest and there is no one else shaking him awake or anything like that. In the dream, there's an eagle screaming "Snow." Mormont's raven is probably screaming "Snow," but it appearing in the dream as an eagle is really interesting when you look up the sort of symbolism that surrounds eagles. 

The dream always read to me as being influenced by outside forces and it always felt like BR may have been reaching out to Jon in his dream, that the gnarled hand was his and like he was about to appear to him, then Jon woke up.

This dreams bookends Jon's first dream in ADwD nicely.

I think the raven intruding is a pretty good indication of which forces as well.

Also, for some reasonthe snow was melting from Robb's hair really catches my attention- is this Jon letting of his past? Combined with the colors of black and red, I wonder if this might indicate that Jon will lose or give LC and pick up Blackfyre.

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10 hours ago, hiemal said:

Lions... It was a long claw indeed that took down Robb Stark.

I thought about lions, specifically in the context of the Rains of Castamere. For some reason, it made me think of the Targaryens and Blackfyres.

10 hours ago, hiemal said:

Also, for some reasonthe snow was melting from Robb's hair really catches my attention- is this Jon letting of his past?

I don't know that that's the case. I think it's his inner turmoil playing out in the dream.

Jon always thinks back to that last time he saw Robb. It was lightly snowing and the snow was melting in his hair. He always thinks of Robb in this context. The last time he sees Sam, it's snowing, and Jon tells Sam to pull up his hood because the snow is melting in his hair. Jon again thinks back on that later.

The snow is melting in Robb's hair, the boy he grew up with and thought was his brother. The snow is melting in Sam's hair, the boy he adopted as his brother. I think we're going to see this theme come up again with someone else.

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1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:
 

I thought about lions, specifically in the context of the Rains of Castamere. For some reason, it made me think of the Targaryens and Blackfyres.

I don't know that that's the case. I think it's his inner turmoil playing out in the dream.

Jon always thinks back to that last time he saw Robb. It was lightly snowing and the snow was melting in his hair. He always thinks of Robb in this context. The last time he sees Sam, it's snowing, and Jon tells Sam to pull up his hood because the snow is melting in his hair. Jon again thinks back on that later.

The snow is melting in Robb's hair, the boy he grew up with and thought was his brother. The snow is melting in Sam's hair, the boy he adopted as his brother. I think we're going to see this theme come up again with someone else.

This dream does seem more personal than many visions we've seen from others. Melting snow is usually something more hopeful, more indicative of a Dream of Spring. Perhaps its nothing more that a sign that despite his envy of Robb, and the hard choice that sent Sam on his way he knows that he will miss them when the Snow is gone for them? Jon's dreams seem to me harder to interpret than most others. Maybe because of a mixed lineage? Snow will melt from them because of his absence and because of certain... revelations that may be coming in the future?

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On 1/11/2021 at 6:56 PM, hiemal said:

Lions... It was a long claw indeed that took down Robb Stark.

 

That's a very nice connection for the name Longclaw.  First I can actually see a connection to anything to with this name.   Very nice!

On 1/12/2021 at 5:52 AM, Alexis-something-Rose said:
 

I thought about lions, specifically in the context of the Rains of Castamere. For some reason, it made me think of the Targaryens and Blackfyres.

Would you be surprised to learn that a friend of mine thinks Mance Rayder would be a decent candidate for the single surviving Tarbeck--the 3 year-old I think he was.    There is no proof of course, just a missing person and an interesting King Beyond the Wall.  Sorry, couldn't resist a small maybe tie in of ideas.  

 

On 1/12/2021 at 7:08 AM, hiemal said:

 Jon's dreams seem to me harder to interpret than most others. 

Me too.  

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Hey guys, if anyone checks back in...Was listening to Joe Magician describe the Children of the Forest.  Their hands are not hands, but claws.  Would love to hear what if anything you make of that further option as perhaps the meaning of Longclaw.  

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3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Hey guys, if anyone checks back in...Was listening to Joe Magician describe the Children of the Forest.  Their hands are not hands, but claws.  Would love to hear what if anything you make of that further option as perhaps the meaning of Longclaw.  

Is he related to Joe Mama?

Seriously, though...

I don't see the Swords either coming out of falling into their hands or claws. Children shouldn't play with swords (someone will put an eye out?) but it is possible that an ancestral form did- the Labyrinth Builders. I think the CotF might be a "grail" people, instead. The open-hand shape of the weirwood trees, red though they are... hmmm... I feel like there's something there but it's not clicking.

 

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