Fitting Longclaw Among Magic Swords

[Curled Finger]

11 hours ago, hiemal said:

Seriously, though...

I don't see the Swords either coming out of falling into their hands or claws. Children shouldn't play with swords (someone will put an eye out?) but it is possible that an ancestral form did- the Labyrinth Builders. I think the CotF might be a "grail" people, instead. The open-hand shape of the weirwood trees, red though they are... hmmm... I feel like there's something there but it's not clicking.

 

Of course you go deep and bring in all sorts of meaningful things.  I was only going to the name Longclaw.  That the COTF actually have claws.  If it is a gift from the COTF the name might count toward the name and origin.  It's not complete, but the bit there is fits if we have determined what it really is.  

[hiemal]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Of course you go deep and bring in all sorts of meaningful things.  I was only going to the name Longclaw.  That the COTF actually have claws.  If it is a gift from the COTF the name might count toward the name and origin.  It's not complete, but the bit there is fits if we have determined what it really is.  

For example, a Sword dropped by one of the Last Hero's fallen companions? That could fit nicely. Perhaps by he who would become Coldhands or the Black Gate...

Also:

/facepalm

I was considering CotF as Sword creators not as ...the Stone the Sword comes out of? Good call, and since the CotF are linked so heavily with caves I think that satisfies the "grail" qualification at the same time.

I wonder if that might "transform" a Sword in nature as well as name? Could a Sword of Betrayal (or Bastards?) become a Sword of Kings?

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, hiemal said:

For example, a Sword dropped by one of the Last Hero's fallen companions? That could fit nicely. Perhaps by he who would become Coldhands or the Black Gate...

Also:

/facepalm

I was considering CotF as Sword creators not as ...the Stone the Sword comes out of? Good call, and since the CotF are linked so heavily with caves I think that satisfies the "grail" qualification at the same time.

I wonder if that might "transform" a Sword in nature as well as name? Could a Sword of Betrayal (or Bastards?) become a Sword of Kings?

I was thinking more along the lines that the COTF made this thing with their claws, speaking to the name.   You make much sense in your connections and I am very happy to have them.  I am beginning to think or at least really consider Longclaw is Ice is maybe Lightbringer or at least what Dragon Steel actually was.   Embellishing your thoughts about the Mormonts safekeeping this gift.  If we can accept your idea, and I really do at this point, it absolutely is a symbol of betrayal or oath breaking.   The scenario you offered about Ice getting stowed (by the Mormonts) following the NK events is really resonating with me. 

Funny I don't even consider Longclaw to be VS anymore!  You really lit some fire in me.  It's entirely possible that a sword such as Longclaw would be a symbol of peace and cooperation between the COTF and 1st Men.   I don't know that the COTF created the Others.  I reckon if they did Longclaw would then symbolize the COTF's betrayal.   I don't need that, but I sure like it.   

Could a sword of betrayal become a sword of kings?   Yah, I think it could and was for a long time.  While I enjoy the whole VS/magic swords groove this Longclaw origin stuff blows it all out of the water.  

[Curled Finger]

On 1/10/2021 at 4:41 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The sword's name is also sort of funny. Animals have claws. Bears, direwolves. Dragons.

Children of the Forest have claws, too, I was recently reminded.  

[LynnS]

On 1/9/2021 at 2:24 PM, Curled Finger said:

  I too, have pondered the strange lack of history for both the Mormonts and Longclaw.

Same here and I can't help noticing the similarity between the names Joer, Jorah and the famous Joramund of the Wildlings.  Same with Maege and maegi or woods witch.  The name Bear Island and it's somewhat primitive totemic symbols including potentially a matrilineal lineage.  I'm reminded of Mance's lodge made of white bear skin.  So did Longclaw once belong to Joramund along with mysterious great horn that seems to be a dragon binding horn by description. 

[Curled Finger]

13 hours ago, LynnS said:

Same here and I can't help noticing the similarity between the names Joer, Jorah and the famous Joramund of the Wildlings.  Same with Maege and maegi or woods witch.  The name Bear Island and it's somewhat primitive totemic symbols including potentially a matrilineal lineage.  I'm reminded of Mance's lodge made of white bear skin.  So did Longclaw once belong to Joramund along with mysterious great horn that seems to be a dragon binding horn by description. 

Wow, Lynn, I didn't make any of those connections and dang, that Joramund name sure does seem to fit with Mormont names.  My working hypothesis is the Longclaw is actually Ancestral Ice and that the Starks gave it to House Mormont to safekeep from future evil Starks accessing it.   I do think there is some wicked power we don't yet understand in this NOT VS sword.  It's just an idea fueled by much fire in this topic.  This is an interesting avenue for research.    Thank you for the tip.   I will follow up to see if I can connect anything.   

[TheLastWolf]

15 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

My working hypothesis is the Longclaw is actually Ancestral Ice and that the Starks gave it to House Mormont to safekeep from future evil Starks accessing it.

I don't support a few of what I wrote then, but... 

It's there 

[Dragomir]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Wow, Lynn, I didn't make any of those connections and dang, that Joramund name sure does seem to fit with Mormont names.  My working hypothesis is the Longclaw is actually Ancestral Ice and that the Starks gave it to House Mormont to safekeep from future evil Starks accessing it.   I do think there is some wicked power we don't yet understand in this NOT VS sword.  It's just an idea fueled by much fire in this topic.  This is an interesting avenue for research.    Thank you for the tip.   I will follow up to see if I can connect anything.   

It may also be the sword the 13th Lord Commander of the nights watch had (the one who Gran nan said was a Stark), perhaps a Mormont played a key role in his defeat hence why the sword might be gifted to them and why it's history isn't known ,because of its shameful past.

[Curled Finger]

22 minutes ago, Dragomir said:

It may also be the sword the 13th Lord Commander of the nights watch had (the one who Gran nan said was a Stark), perhaps a Mormont played a key role in his defeat hence why the sword might be gifted to them and why it's history isn't known ,because of its shameful past.

Makes sense to me falls right in line with the conversation.  Thanks for joining in!

[Alexis-something-Rose]

17 hours ago, LynnS said:

Same here and I can't help noticing the similarity between the names Joer, Jorah and the famous Joramund of the Wildlings.  Same with Maege and maegi or woods witch.  The name Bear Island and it's somewhat primitive totemic symbols including potentially a matrilineal lineage.  I'm reminded of Mance's lodge made of white bear skin. 

This is pretty a pretty neat connection with the names. It reminds me that the current Stark line could be descended from a Mormont female. Alaric Stark's wife was a Mormont.

 

[Dragomir]

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Makes sense to me falls right in line with the conversation.  Thanks for joining in!

Glad to be here

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

This is pretty a pretty neat connection with the names. It reminds me that the current Stark line could be descended from a Mormont female. Alaric Stark's wife was a Mormont.

 

I love the way this topic twists in the most unexpected ways.  I'm building a full on back story in my head--it feels like finding the wood under paint.  Love a good hand full of mysteries!  

[Yaya]

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

21 hours ago, LynnS said:

Same here and I can't help noticing the similarity between the names Joer, Jorah and the famous Joramund of the Wildlings.  Same with Maege and maegi or woods witch.  The name Bear Island and it's somewhat primitive totemic symbols including potentially a matrilineal lineage.  I'm reminded of Mance's lodge made of white bear skin.  So did Longclaw once belong to Joramund along with mysterious great horn that seems to be a dragon binding horn by description. 

Wow, Lynn, I didn't make any of those connections and dang, that Joramund name sure does seem to fit with Mormont names.  My working hypothesis is the Longclaw is actually Ancestral Ice and that the Starks gave it to House Mormont to safekeep from future evil Starks accessing it.   I do think there is some wicked power we don't yet understand in this NOT VS sword.  It's just an idea fueled by much fire in this topic.  This is an interesting avenue for research.    Thank you for the tip.   I will follow up to see if I can connect anything.

here's my $0.02 & disclaimer - i think i've read this entire thread & if someone noted what i am going on about, i will feel really dumb because i obviously missed something.  it's been a few days.  so if so, let me know

the word "Longclaw" suddenly dinged to me in an association similar to "wooden tooth" & "bone tooth" - these were named as the human weapons in the description by Varamyr when he is warging along in his wolves; in the most excellent prologue of DwD. 

the connection i'm trying to make is that the word combinations of "wooden tooth", "hardskins", "long grey claws" "bone tooth" is totally similar to "Longclaw". 

to me this seems to be a potential cotf / 'old gods' type of word combination & that leads me to thinking that indeed, there could be way more history & importance in Longclaw.

 

[Curled Finger]

12 hours ago, Yaya said:

here's my $0.02 & disclaimer - i think i've read this entire thread & if someone noted what i am going on about, i will feel really dumb because i obviously missed something.  it's been a few days.  so if so, let me know

the word "Longclaw" suddenly dinged to me in an association similar to "wooden tooth" & "bone tooth" - these were named as the human weapons in the description by Varamyr when he is warging along in his wolves; in the most excellent prologue of DwD. 

the connection i'm trying to make is that the word combinations of "wooden tooth", "hardskins", "long grey claws" "bone tooth" is totally similar to "Longclaw". 

to me this seems to be a potential cotf / 'old gods' type of word combination & that leads me to thinking that indeed, there could be way more history & importance in Longclaw.

 

I think you nailed it, Yaya.  Now that you bring long grey claws and hardskins and bone tooth in I am of a mind to go reread some IronBorn history.  On of the IB heroes of lore had his skin turn grey.   It almost reads like grey scale to me, but could be a sort of armor in this light.   And those foul weapons they used.  May be a tie in, maybe not, but it sure is good to want to go through the old text with a fresh frame of mind.   Thank you for elaborating on the name Longclaw.  And stoppin in--it's always good to see you!  

[Alexis-something-Rose]

So about this. I've been thinking that with the two wars that Jorah participated in, that he probably would have carried Longclaw in battle. 

At the Redgrass Field, we have the mentions of Blackfyre, Dark Sister and Lady Forlorn. 

At the Battle of Ashford, Randyll Tarly had Heartsbane.

At the Battle of the Trident, Lady Forlon was present. Jorah Mormont was there too, but no mention of Longclaw. It is implied in the text that Jeor joined the NW prior to Robert's Rebellion, so the sword would have become his son's at that point.

And the Greyjoy Rebellion. We are told that Thoros of Myr was the first through the breach with his flaming sword, and Jorah was went through that breach right after him, but no mention of Longclaw here either.

Those who possess Valyrian swords carry them with them and use them in battle. Randyll Tarly has Heartsbane with him at Maidenpool, sheathed above his shoulder. Lyn Corbray uses Lady Forlorn in his duels. Brienne uses Oathkeeper to fight the Bloody Mummers and later Biter and Rorge. Jon doesn't go anywhere without Longclaw. Harras Harlaw defeats seven foes using Nightfall. Dunstan Drumm has Red Rain at the kingsmoot and at the Shields. 

Jorah Mormont is never once mentioned in the same sentence as Longclaw. When he tells Dany the story of his flight, he doesn't mention having to leave his family's ancestral sword behind. 

Jeor doesn't mention that his son wielded the sword in battle. I know we're not in Jorah's head, and thank you for that, George, but Longclaw is wholly absent it is in these very important moments in Westerosi History, in a way the other Valyrian swords are not. 

[Curled Finger]

On 1/23/2021 at 7:47 AM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

So about this. I've been thinking that with the two wars that Jorah participated in, that he probably would have carried Longclaw in battle. 

At the Redgrass Field, we have the mentions of Blackfyre, Dark Sister and Lady Forlorn. 

At the Battle of Ashford, Randyll Tarly had Heartsbane.

At the Battle of the Trident, Lady Forlon was present. Jorah Mormont was there too, but no mention of Longclaw. It is implied in the text that Jeor joined the NW prior to Robert's Rebellion, so the sword would have become his son's at that point.

And the Greyjoy Rebellion. We are told that Thoros of Myr was the first through the breach with his flaming sword, and Jorah was went through that breach right after him, but no mention of Longclaw here either.

Those who possess Valyrian swords carry them with them and use them in battle. Randyll Tarly has Heartsbane with him at Maidenpool, sheathed above his shoulder. Lyn Corbray uses Lady Forlorn in his duels. Brienne uses Oathkeeper to fight the Bloody Mummers and later Biter and Rorge. Jon doesn't go anywhere without Longclaw. Harras Harlaw defeats seven foes using Nightfall. Dunstan Drumm has Red Rain at the kingsmoot and at the Shields. 

Jorah Mormont is never once mentioned in the same sentence as Longclaw. When he tells Dany the story of his flight, he doesn't mention having to leave his family's ancestral sword behind. 

Jeor doesn't mention that his son wielded the sword in battle. I know we're not in Jorah's head, and thank you for that, George, but Longclaw is wholly absent it is in these very important moments in Westerosi History, in a way the other Valyrian swords are not. 

If Longclaw doesn't belong to House Mormont they wouldn't actually use it for anything at all, right?   It's not theirs?  Ned seemed to only use his admittedly gigantic Ice for ceremonial reasons.   Longclaw isn't much smaller than Ice or Heartsbane.  It would be an awkward weapon to use on a battle field, but Jon seems to do just fine with it.  Could be traditions for utilizing swords are different from region to region.   Heartsbane and Lady Forlorn have been used repeatedly in battles.  Could be House Mormont at the very least, remembers what these exquisite weapons are meant for?  I was always stumped on why Maege returned Longclaw to Jeor at the Wall.   What an odd thing to do with a family sword.   Maege and her daughters are fearsome warriors--other than possibly Longclaw being taller than any of the Mormont women are, the return of Longclaw to Jeor was always just a weird thing to me.   That House Mormont are only guardians and safekeepers for Longclaw wraps Jorah's lack of mention of Longclaw to Dany, maybe many of the other strange strange events not surrounding this sword.   I love this, Alexis and all the doors this topic has opened for me.

Indeed!  Thank you George for not putting us in Jorah's head.    I need a shower, thanks for that.   Your closing statement really is a concise and broader idea I was trying to express in the OP.   Not that I got as far as you did at the time of writing.   I was only not fitting the name with all the others.  You have it completely right in gathering Longclaw hasn't taken part in a single important moment in Westerosi history that we are aware of.  To add to your own collection of Longclaw curio, Jorah uses a greatsword.   He's a big burly guy built for a sword as tall as most women.   I gather he's always used the big sword as he is proficient in its use.  Wouldn't Jorah have been exposed to the use and treatment of a bastard sword as the heir to and the lord of House Mormont?  I'm thinking not here.   Jorah has possibly always used the greatsword over the more maneuverable bastard sword.   Just a thought.   

[LynnS]

On 1/18/2021 at 1:31 PM, Dragomir said:

It may also be the sword the 13th Lord Commander of the nights watch had (the one who Gran nan said was a Stark), perhaps a Mormont played a key role in his defeat hence why the sword might be gifted to them and why it's history isn't known ,because of its shameful past.

Well Joramund of the legends defeated the Night King; so perhaps he claimed his sword, if in fact the NK had a valyrian steel sword.  But if this is the case, we could speculate that Joramund's sword came through the matrilineal line to House Mormont.  Potentially a marriage between the Andals and a north woman of Joramund's lineage.  Which might explain the naming of sons as variations on the Joramund.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

I was always stumped on why Maege returned Longclaw to Jeor at the Wall.   What an odd thing to do with a family sword.   Maege and her daughters are fearsome warriors--other than possibly Longclaw being taller than any of the Mormont women are, the return of Longclaw to Jeor was always just a weird thing to me.

It is completely weird. The more I look at the history of the other Valyrian swords the more I realize that Longclaw's history is a blank slate so far.  

The thing is, while House Mormont is essentially a House of women at this point in their history, that won't be so forever. Maege had five daughters. Dacey died childless as far as we know, but Aly has two children and one of them is a boy to whom the sword could be passed down. And the other three girls will eventually have children of their own. So the sword could still be passed down as it has for 500 years. 

Instead this precious item, this valuable piece and family heirloom gets sent to the NW where it just sits there until the two wights attack Castle Black, then Jeor gifts it to a 15 year old kid who has sworn that he will never take a wife or father children. It could be argued that this would make Longclaw a Night's Watch sword and can start being passed down from LC to LC in some new tradition. 

In any case, the Mormonts either took Longclaw off the dead body of an ironborn who was part of a raid on Bear Island, so essentially paying the iron price for it (which I think was mentioned somewhere upthread), or it never belonged to them, as you have stated.

The more things go (or don't go since we're still waiting on the next book), the more I'm aligning with those who think that Longclaw and Blackfyre are one and the same.

[Curled Finger]

6 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

It is completely weird. The more I look at the history of the other Valyrian swords the more I realize that Longclaw's history is a blank slate so far.  

The thing is, while House Mormont is essentially a House of women at this point in their history, that won't be so forever. Maege had five daughters. Dacey died childless as far as we know, but Aly has two children and one of them is a boy to whom the sword could be passed down. And the other three girls will eventually have children of their own. So the sword could still be passed down as it has for 500 years. 

Instead this precious item, this valuable piece and family heirloom gets sent to the NW where it just sits there until the two wights attack Castle Black, then Jeor gifts it to a 15 year old kid who has sworn that he will never take a wife or father children. It could be argued that this would make Longclaw a Night's Watch sword and can start being passed down from LC to LC in some new tradition. 

In any case, the Mormonts either took Longclaw off the dead body of an ironborn who was part of a raid on Bear Island, so essentially paying the iron price for it (which I think was mentioned somewhere upthread), or it never belonged to them, as you have stated.

The more things go (or don't go since we're still waiting on the next book), the more I'm aligning with those who think that Longclaw and Blackfyre are one and the same.

You and I were thinking the same thing about Longclaw being a Nights Watch sword!  After many years pondering this I think there is a distinct possibility that this sword in particular really does belong at the NW, with the NW for the NW.  

I admit I have been looking sideways at Blackfyre too, after years of saying no way.  All I've got to defend the position that they are 2 separate entities is description.  Blackfyre by my reckoning should be near black while Longclaw is described as grey.  You are in no way a whacko with your ideas so let's step into it and examine the possibility.  I know I am (or was) hung up on Jon ultimately having Blackfyre for his own.   That would require him to lose or give Longclaw away.  I can totally envision a loss if Jon is unconscious for a prolonged period.   Someone would scoop it up for whatever reason.  (Of course, I'm going with a Wildling friend who would in turn give it to Mance to wield beyond the Wall.  That sounds whacko but I can make a case for the whole oath breaker bent with Longclaw and Mance is a wonderful oath breaker matching the character class characteristics of a bard to a tee.  If the swords and their heroes go ranging I cannot think of a better lead for the party.)  OK, fine and?  Well if Jon retains Longclaw and uses it to it's intended end, bringing dawn, defeating the Others whatever else needs to be done--where does its identity as Blackfyre become important?   

Would it take a Targaryan to end the next Long Night?   Sure, why not?  Though I think the Stark lineage is crucial in this, that super special Targ magical element might be the small thing that was missing in the 1st Last Hero.   Or not and there is no point to ice and fire uniting in a single person.   The Starks seems to be a culmination of northern or ice magical power where the Targs absolutely represent fire.   There is an unfulfilled pact of Ice and Fire.   Yah, I think Jon's lineage is an important factor here.   It is important for all of us to recognize his full nature as both powers will likely manifest in him.   While that may be fine and good, I still can't imagine Jon as a Targ.   Maybe it's just me who needs him to have it?  

Another small thing to consider is that dragon steel may well not be Valyrian Steel.  Dragon steel would be a weapon forged by the claws of the COTF and ice magic and blood magic, no doubt.    The process can't be that far from the process for making Valyrian Steel--the magic being the main difference?  

With so little backstory explaining Longclaw I'm with you.   It's something else.  It could be Ice as this topic has revealed and it could be Blackfyre as has been proposed.  I was so sure there were only the swords mentioned in the story, no more or less, but this conversation has completely slanted my views on Longclaw if nothing else.   

[Alexis-something-Rose]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Would it take a Targaryan to end the next Long Night?   Sure, why not?  Though I think the Stark lineage is crucial in this, that super special Targ magical element might be the small thing that was missing in the 1st Last Hero.   Or not and there is no point to ice and fire uniting in a single person.   The Starks seems to be a culmination of northern or ice magical power where the Targs absolutely represent fire.   There is an unfulfilled pact of Ice and Fire.   Yah, I think Jon's lineage is an important factor here.   It is important for all of us to recognize his full nature as both powers will likely manifest in him.   

I think it will be a collective effort to end the Long Night, but that people have to rally essentially under one banner to be able to achieve that. 

I'm writing something about the Long Night right now, and it doesn't seem like anyone has been able to achieve anything on their own. The last hero needed the children of the forest and created the NW. Azor Ahai needed Nissa Nissa. The hero mentioned in the Rhonyar legend had to make peace between the various fighting factions before they could join him in a secret song that ended the LN. And the Targaryens have this thing about the dragon having three heads, which seems to be the PtwP and two companions. 

This is sort of the exciting part of the story for me, to see how these various legends

Quote

While that may be fine and good, I still can't imagine Jon as a Targ.   Maybe it's just me who needs him to have it?  

I'm pretty sure Jon will have a hard time imagining himself as a Targ as well. And I am so looking forward to this! I doubt Jon will get over his parentage as quickly as snapping our fingers together.

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Another small thing to consider is that dragon steel may well not be Valyrian Steel.  Dragon steel would be a weapon forged by the claws of the COTF and ice magic and blood magic, no doubt.    The process can't be that far from the process for making Valyrian Steel--the magic being the main difference?  

I think dragonsteel might be straight up referring to Dawn/Lightbringer. If we go with the current speculation that the dragons that poured forth from the cracked moon in the Qartheen legend is about some kind of a meteor shower, then a sword that's forged from one of those meteors would be dragonsteel, no? Although I'm pretty sure that Valyrian steel will be beyond useful against the Others. Since Valyrian steel was Jon and Sam's first thought when it came to dragonsteel, then I'm not sure that it's the answer our valiant heroes are looking for.

There are a couple of interesting things in the prologue of AGoT. First, there's Waymar Royce's appearance, with his grey eyes and his slender build and the remark on his gracefulness, and who seems to be 100% Jon Snow stand-in. The second thing is the Other examining Waymar's sword before he engages him in battle.

The other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. 

This description is chef's kiss, especially when reading the description of the Other's sword and the passage about Lightbringer in the Jade Compedium.