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Thematic meaning of Westeros's stagnant society


Alyn Oakenfist

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1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I was just thinking about this slogan and how over the top it is. "Planting stuff is for pussies!"

Of course, "We do not sow" = "dragons plant no trees" 

I agree with this. I believe the ship-building metaphor for the Ironborn relates to hatching dragons - the ships are - at the very least - eggs; and possibly full-scale dragons. A number of the Great Houses (and some lesser houses, such as Craster) have monsters to feed - direwolves, blood-sucking trees, chimeras, dragons, packs of hunting dogs, the Drowned God, the Others. The pillaging and plundering ships of the Ironborn are like the gaping maws of hungry dragons that swoop down on livestock and humans. Weapons of mass destruction. 

Dany tries to create a balance, planting trees and hatching dragons. Why is it Ser Jorah who tells her not to bother with the trees?

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15 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So something interesting I came across. In the Silmarrilion, the LoTR prequel book, one of the main ideas is that evil cannot create, it can only mar, corrupt or create mockeries. Orcs were twisted elves, Trolls are mockeries of the Ents while dragons were probably created as mockery of eagles. Now that's all well and good, but given the buttload of similarities between LoTR and ASOAIF, I was wondering, is this thematically ties to Westeros's technological and social stagnation? Like going on the idea, that the evil system of ambition and backstabbing Westeros lives in is what stifles any creation, innovation or move forward, and for Westeros to advance the Game needs to stop? Now I'm not the best at finding parallels and developing such ideas, @Seams is, so what are your thoughts on the matter?

I think that it is much less prosaic than that: Martin (intentionally or not) imitated Tolkien (no technological or social advancement for, what, 7 000 years?), without understanding the reasons for it (Elves are immortal, and innovation happens one death at a time). While it is true that, in Tolkien, evil cannot create, it should be noted that "creation" is not the same as technological "innovation". There is nothing innovative about Mona Lisa, or Michelangelo's David; yet both are unique works of art which evil would be incapable of creating and could only mock. In fact, orcs are innovative: it is suggested (in Hobbit?) that it was the orcs which made explosives.

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I don't think there is a thematic meaning.  There is something sinister underground who retards progress.  Notice what happens when any human civilization got relatively advanced.  It suffers a doom.  There is a powerful force holding back progress.  I am blaming Greenseers.  They drive humans to war.  They and their servitors take advantage of human nature to push man towards his doom.  The survival of Greenseers depend on superstitious people who willingly murder their enemies to sacrifice to them. 

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14 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Eh, I'm not sure GRRM was thinking about technological development when he created this world. He seems more interested in sociopolitical change.

They go hand in hand throughout history.  

 

16 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So something interesting I came across. In the Silmarrilion, the LoTR prequel book, one of the main ideas is that evil cannot create, it can only mar, corrupt or create mockeries. Orcs were twisted elves, Trolls are mockeries of the Ents while dragons were probably created as mockery of eagles. Now that's all well and good, but given the buttload of similarities between LoTR and ASOAIF, I was wondering, is this thematically ties to Westeros's technological and social stagnation? Like going on the idea, that the evil system of ambition and backstabbing Westeros lives in is what stifles any creation, innovation or move forward, and for Westeros to advance the Game needs to stop? Now I'm not the best at finding parallels and developing such ideas, @Seams is, so what are your thoughts on the matter?

Love me some really good @Seams!  I'm not so sure there is a theme so much as an undertone here.  Many undertones here, your thinking among them.  I used to spend quite a bit of time thinking about the dualism throughout ASOIAF.  What's the worst most fearful fire mechanism?  Dragons of both species.  What's the very worst ice has to offer?   Frozen demon necromancers.  Gads, they are equally terrifying.  Still we have the smaller harnessing of both magics.  We saw Melisandre birth shadow assassins and eye fry an eagle.  Bran take possession of a really big guy's body.  Wolf dreams.  Resurrection and the ability to infect other humans with it.  Some believe Grey Scale is in fact a curse, not a plague.  Wildfyre.  I think it's in these large and small wonders I can clearly see how any level of powerful magic is to the detriment of the humans in Westeros.   I fully expect magic will have to move on to benefit humanity if they are to rule the world.  So long as this world with its peculiar people of varying species and races and cultures and geographies the world is at peril of any magical element becoming out of balance.  Does it thematically tie?  I think it does in a small way, but a big lesson Tolkien owns the teaching of.  

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6 hours ago, Seams said:

I always worry that people hate my nattering on about symbolism and parallels, so thanks for this invite. 

Although there’s plenty of hate on characters here, I’ve thankfully rarely seen hate against people in all my (mostly) lurking years. And you wouldn’t deserve any. I, for one, love the way you examine writing, even though it’s not my MO. 
 

Regarding the OP, besides GRRMs desire for an illogically long history, I think the stagnant state could be explained by both the real magic in the world and indeed the ever irregular seasons. Lots of our recent (late Middle Ages and beyond) historic developments, such as urbanisation, are the result of the three-field rotation and the solid agricultural foundation and food production it provides civilisation. Nobody is going to be a painter when there’s no food for them to eat. Developing an agricultural society without predictable weather will be difficult. 

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2 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

I don't think there is a thematic meaning.  There is something sinister underground who retards progress.  Notice what happens when any human civilization got relatively advanced.  It suffers a doom.  There is a powerful force holding back progress.  I am blaming Greenseers.  They drive humans to war.  They and their servitors take advantage of human nature to push man towards his doom.  The survival of Greenseers depend on superstitious people who willingly murder their enemies to sacrifice to them. 

I think this is a strong possibility

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6 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Imaginary!Jorah you mean? Actually just Dany talking to herself.

As a tree lover Tolkien would be horrified.

I guess you're right. Except I suspect the imaginary voice in ASOIAF can carry the same meaning as if the conversation had taken place in person. 

Quote

You took Meereen, he told her, yet still you lingered.

"To be a queen."

You are a queen, her bear said. In Westeros.

"It is such a long way," she complained. "I was tired, Jorah. I was weary of war. I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow. I am only a young girl."

No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.

 

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On 1/14/2021 at 4:45 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

Eh, I'm not sure GRRM was thinking about technological development when he created this world. He seems more interested in sociopolitical change.

GRRM is a science fiction writer at heart. Some of his best work focuses on how society and technological development interact with one another. In his Thousand Worlds universe, there are a few examples of planet-wide sociopolitical interregnums, long periods of technological and sociopolitical regressions, such as In the House of the Worm. I'm not arguing here that ASOIAF is secretly science fiction, because I don't think it is, just that George has a history of exploring technological social interdependence in his past work. He does think about this stuff is what I'm saying, so I don't think we should dismiss the possibility that Planetosi societies might have been a bit more advanced in the past than in the present.

There is some evidence that Westeros itself was more advanced in the past. Storms End is built in a way that is currently impossible for Westerosi architects to pull off. The Wall is a 700 foot high block of ice that almost certainly cannot be built by "modern" hands. And of course we know the Valyrians could design buildings of fused stone, which is also a skill lost to the current timeline. Magic may, and probably was used in part in all these cases, but the buildings mentioned here would likely also have needed technology that Planetosi civiliations currently have forgotten. Another example of this phenomenon is Valyrian steel. So I think George is definately thinking about his world's lack of technological progress and what lead up to it.

22 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

They go hand in hand throughout history.  

 

Love me some really good @Seams!  I'm not so sure there is a theme so much as an undertone here.  Many undertones here, your thinking among them.  I used to spend quite a bit of time thinking about the dualism throughout ASOIAF.  What's the worst most fearful fire mechanism?  Dragons of both species.  What's the very worst ice has to offer?   Frozen demon necromancers.  Gads, they are equally terrifying.  Still we have the smaller harnessing of both magics.  We saw Melisandre birth shadow assassins and eye fry an eagle.  Bran take possession of a really big guy's body.  Wolf dreams.  Resurrection and the ability to infect other humans with it.  Some believe Grey Scale is in fact a curse, not a plague.  Wildfyre.  I think it's in these large and small wonders I can clearly see how any level of powerful magic is to the detriment of the humans in Westeros.   I fully expect magic will have to move on to benefit humanity if they are to rule the world.  So long as this world with its peculiar people of varying species and races and cultures and geographies the world is at peril of any magical element becoming out of balance.  Does it thematically tie?  I think it does in a small way, but a big lesson Tolkien owns the teaching of.  

I still maintain that the most likely cause for the regression of technology in this series in the planet wide climate. The seasons are way off balance. People often take the ecology and climate of a land for granted, without realizing that their entire society depends on everything being in balance. In our own world, human civilization rose and is still flourishing in a stable climatic period. Global Warming is a very recent phenomenon, and has yet to really show it's more nasty effects. In the Martinverse, Planetosi seasons have apparently always been unpredictable and out of balance, as far as written history goes. So I think the climate imbalance, which is magically induced, is ultimately the root cause of Planetos's lack of technological growth.

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1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

GRRM is a science fiction writer at heart. Some of his best work focuses on how society and technological development interact with one another. In his Thousand Worlds universe, there are a few examples of planet-wide sociopolitical interregnums, long periods of technological and sociopolitical regressions, such as In the House of the Worm. I'm not arguing here that ASOIAF is secretly science fiction, because I don't think it is, just that George has a history of exploring technological social interdependence in his past work. He does think about this stuff is what I'm saying, so I don't think we should dismiss the possibility that Planetosi societies might have been a bit more advanced in the past than in the present.

There is some evidence that Westeros itself was more advanced in the past. Storms End is built in a way that is currently impossible for Westerosi architects to pull off. The Wall is a 700 foot high block of ice that almost certainly cannot be built by "modern" hands. And of course we know the Valyrians could design buildings of fused stone, which is also a skill lost to the current timeline. Magic may, and probably was used in part in all these cases, but the buildings mentioned here would likely also have needed technology that Planetosi civiliations currently have forgotten. Another example of this phenomenon is Valyrian steel. So I think George is definately thinking about his world's lack of technological progress and what lead up to it.

I still maintain that the most likely cause for the regression of technology in this series in the planet wide climate. The seasons are way off balance. People often take the ecology and climate of a land for granted, without realizing that their entire society depends on everything being in balance. In our own world, human civilization rose and is still flourishing in a stable climatic period. Global Warming is a very recent phenomenon, and has yet to really show it's more nasty effects. In the Martinverse, Planetosi seasons have apparently always been unpredictable and out of balance, as far as written history goes. So I think the climate imbalance, which is magically induced, is ultimately the root cause of Planetos's lack of technological growth.

There is no denying the horrific geological events we know of have had a huge impact on progress.  The Doom was what? 500 years ago, a little less.  Hardhome was 200 years prior to that.  The cataclysm in the Rhoyne--we see the impact and long reaching fear among entire civilizations and nations.  The Smoking Sea is still corrupt near Valyria.  The Free Folk won't go near Hardhome.  Mother Mole is the 1st we hear of anyone even visiting there since it was decimated.  There are ruins of fabled castles littering the Rhoyne.  Is it so very strange that the Stone Men are sent to transform there--away from decent folk.   Sorry, it just smacks of biblical time reaction to leprosy.  The Neck is still swamp where the legends are almost as strange (and lovely by judge of Meera and Jojen when he isn't all emo) as the people who live and die there.  Yes!  These events shape the land, trade, climate, resources and the opportunity to exchange ideas with a truly foreign person, the Valyrians or Maze Makers.  Exclusion or maybe isolation is a better descriptor of Westeros' true state.  Doesn't it seem that every time this odd continent develops a great adventurer or explorer or merchant--a bank even--everything goes to Hell in a handbasket?  I would want a relationship with Braavos whether I was in Essos or Westeros.  Braavos is the place for world class politics, economics and rich culture as a better melding pot that those oft conquered places like Westeros.   There are clear class distinctions among the Braavosi, but they don't appear to be bitter or mean for the most part.  Tycho Nestoris is an envoy of the Iron Bank yet he would take on a loan for the Nights Watch.    While we are thinking about progress and Planetos we need to give some thought to the mindset of the power in places.   Some of these leaders in Essos are very exotic, but read about them and see their sheer will and power.  There are some very strange and curiously beautiful customs and beliefs in this world.  

I know you meant something far closer to climate and I didn't mean to slight the point.  Climate is crucial for life.  Can you imagine freezing for 6 straight years or no break in the heat for the same?   The Long Night is an obvious commentary on climate told in the creepy, scary, unknowable Others.  The Long Night reminds me of descriptions of crippling blizzards of not so long ago that could shut major cities down for weeks at a time.  Planetos has no opportunity for long term building across all that water without better conditions.  

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On 1/14/2021 at 4:26 PM, Sigella said:

I'm with @CamiloRP its all about the magic. If magic flies you to the peak, why bother straggling by foot?

I agree with this idea.  However, I would take it a bit further.  Magic also prevents social change, and social change leads to development.  If you're a pre-Andal Stark, riding around on a direwolf, with the magic of the Old Gods at your back, you don't get deposed no matter how many of your men the magic-less Bolton's flay.   The Lannisters and Tyrells had the same problem during the days of the dragons.  I doubt Dorne would have joined the 7 Kingdoms if Daeron II had dragons, as they understood that such a merger wouldn't be on their terms so long as the Targaryens had magic.  They'd learned this from their Rhoynish heritage, that it is better to die free than be enslaved by magical rulers.   

Once the dragons were gone, Westeros had the opportunity to develop, and we've since seen more regional coordination and eventually, the great houses intermarrying.   During the War of the Ninepenny Kings, Essos tried to use the Blackfire cause to carve up Westeros for themselves.  With Robert's Rebellion, the Targaryens were deposed and a new king, not magically blessed, was installed.   The World of Ice and Fire has been developing faster since the Doom of Valyria and the death of the Dragons in Westeros, primarily because there is no magic to maintain the social order and human ambition started shaping the societies that used to be forced into stagnation by magic.   

Had magic not returned, a few centuries more and we might have seen the start of an enlightenment, followed by rejection of feudalism, more democratic and capitalistic enterprises, and. eventually, an industrial revolution.  Unfortunately, magic is back and threatening regression.  

The crazy seasons play a role, but I see magic, which is likely the underlying cause of the unpredictable seasons, as the true culprit.  

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32 minutes ago, aeverett said:

I agree with this idea.  However, I would take it a bit further.  Magic also prevents social change, and social change leads to development.  If you're a pre-Andal Stark, riding around on a direwolf, with the magic of the Old Gods at your back, you don't get deposed no matter how many of your men the magic-less Bolton's flay.   The Lannisters and Tyrells had the same problem during the days of the dragons.  I doubt Dorne would have joined the 7 Kingdoms if Daeron II had dragons, as they understood that such a merger wouldn't be on their terms so long as the Targaryens had magic.  They'd learned this from their Rhoynish heritage, that it is better to die free than be enslaved by magical rulers.   

Once the dragons were gone, Westeros had the opportunity to develop, and we've since seen more regional coordination and eventually, the great houses intermarrying.   During the War of the Ninepenny Kings, Essos tried to use the Blackfire cause to carve up Westeros for themselves.  With Robert's Rebellion, the Targaryens were deposed and a new king, not magically blessed, was installed.   The World of Ice and Fire has been developing faster since the Doom of Valyria and the death of the Dragons in Westeros, primarily because there is no magic to maintain the social order and human ambition started shaping the societies that used to be forced into stagnation by magic.   

Had magic not returned, a few centuries more and we might have seen the start of an enlightenment, followed by rejection of feudalism, more democratic and capitalistic enterprises, and. eventually, an industrial revolution.  Unfortunately, magic is back and threatening regression.  

The crazy seasons play a role, but I see magic, which is likely the underlying cause of the unpredictable seasons, as the true culprit.  

I disagree. If anything, magic helped social and technological development in the past. Say what you will about the Valyrians, they did build immensely great and lasting works of architecture and infrastructure. Think of the raised road Tyrion travels on in ADoD, or the fused stone of Dragonstone. Storms End was built in large part with magic in all likelihood, and nobody in the current timeline could even begin to build anything like it. The same goes for the Wall, the Citadel, the Mazes of Lorath, the amazing ruins of the Rhoynar who undoubtedly used magic of their own, etc. Magic was very much a part of all these cultures, and it didn't prevent them from pulling off impressive feats. The Rhoynar used water magic, but it didn't stop them from being a stable, egalitarian, peaceable society.

The Targaryen dragons also didn't prevent Westeros from making important advances. Aegon the Conqueror unified the Seven Kingdoms, ending the constant state of warring and skirmishing that devastated the smallfolk. Then he turned Kings Landing into a thriving port city, that also probably had important economic benefits. Jehearys 1st built the Kingsroad, which continues to provide benefits, and he ruled in a long, prosperous and peaceful reign. And he had dragons. Many, many dragons.

Magic didn't stop these advances, it played a role in causing them. Magic is a tool, ultimately, and whether a society advances or not is all in how they put their tools to use. It is important to note that Westeros began to stagnate after the Dance of the Dragons, not before it.

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18 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

I disagree. If anything, magic helped social and technological development in the past. Say what you will about the Valyrians, they did build immensely great and lasting works of architecture and infrastructure. Think of the raised road Tyrion travels on in ADoD, or the fused stone of Dragonstone. Storms End was built in large part with magic in all likelihood, and nobody in the current timeline could even begin to build anything like it. The same goes for the Wall, the Citadel, the Mazes of Lorath, the amazing ruins of the Rhoynar who undoubtedly used magic of their own, etc. Magic was very much a part of all these cultures, and it didn't prevent them from pulling off impressive feats. The Rhoynar used water magic, but it didn't stop them from being a stable, egalitarian, peaceable society.

The Targaryen dragons also didn't prevent Westeros from making important advances. Aegon the Conqueror unified the Seven Kingdoms, ending the constant state of warring and skirmishing that devastated the smallfolk. Then he turned Kings Landing into a thriving port city, that also probably had important economic benefits. Jehearys 1st built the Kingsroad, which continues to provide benefits, and he ruled in a long, prosperous and peaceful reign. And he had dragons. Many, many dragons.

Magic didn't stop these advances, it played a role in causing them. Magic is a tool, ultimately, and whether a society advances or not is all in how they put their tools to use. It is important to note that Westeros began to stagnate after the Dance of the Dragons, not before it.

Magic in TWoIaF brings a brittle form of development, one that doesn't last.  The Doom didn't just wipe away Valyria, it set her daughter cities on a path to regression.   The Targs have been deposed and all that forced unity broke apart.  The Kingsroad does still provide benefit, but enough time hasn't passed for it to deteriorate.    The Rhoynar's water magic was no match for the Valyrian fire magic (aka dragons) and they were conquered and enslaved or self-exiled, getting lucky only when House Martell gave them sanctuary.    House Martell had no magic, only a clever ability to use the natural resources they possessed and a keen eye for a profitable alliance.    Magical advancement is fleeting in TWoIaF.  Whether or not non-magical development would prove just as temporary and ultimately regressive, there is no way of knowing as TWoIaF hadn't had enough breathing room to develop before magic returned.   

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TBH, I've always had a suspicion that magic is meant to be an invasive force, and that stagnation is a result of that- "progress" doesn't really make sense in a world governed by forces that can be interacted with in a purely transactional way rather than through the incremental accumulation of knowledge.

 

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